How heavy duty is the 111mm series?

[gustophersmob]

Just curious, does anyone have experience using the 111mm series knives in a hard use fashion? I know "hard use" is somewhat vague, but I wonder how they compare to other one hand opening knives like spyderco or benchmade. I'm thinking specifically of the sentinel or one handed trekker, but any of the series is probably representative.

Seems like they can't possibly be as resilient as the tactical folders since they're pinned together with brass pins, but I wonder how much they can take.

[Ron Who]

The blade on the SAKs is much thinner than on e.g. the Spyderco Endura. It won´t take as much abuse.

[gustophersmob]

The blade on the SAKs is much thinner than on e.g. the Spyderco Endura. It won´t take as much abuse.

Ah, didn't know that. I've not held one side by side, but my memory of the delica was that it was a similar thickness.

[Nix]

Interesting question, and I don't have a good answer.

I don't think I push my 'heavy duty' knives to even 50% of what they are capable of. I just don't seen to get into situations like that. I've batonned a couple of folders through smaller logs without a problem, but I know some knives won't do well with that. I once batonned a Trekker through a small dry branch, but I was fairly careful in doing so, and it wasn't a problem for the Trekker.

I think that with time, I've found I rarely ever need a 'heavy duty' knife or pocket knife. (An opinion that has been predicated on having a good saw or axe or fixed blade knife when I needed one.) For most routine tasks, the 111mm's seem more than robust enough.

But I don't think I really answered your question.   

[Nix]

The blade on the SAKs is much thinner than on e.g. the Spyderco Endura. It won´t take as much abuse.

Ah, didn't know that. I've not held one side by side, but my memory of the delica was that it was a similar thickness.

At the ricasso:

Outrider blade: 2.42mm
Delica: 2.56mm

[gustophersmob]

Interesting question, and I don't have a good answer.

I don't think I push my 'heavy duty' knives to even 50% of what they are capable of. I just don't seen to get into situations like that. I've batonned a couple of folders through smaller logs without a problem, but I know some knives won't do well with that. I once batonned a Trekker through a small dry branch, but I was fairly careful in doing so, and it wasn't a problem for the Trekker.

I think that with time, I've found I rarely ever need a 'heavy duty' knife or pocket knife. (An opinion that has been predicated on having a good saw or axe or fixed blade knife when I needed one.) For most routine tasks, the 111mm's seem more than robust enough.

But I don't think I really answered your question.   

Thanks for your reply! Good thoughts. It's mainly hypothetical anyway, as like you I don't really have occasion to really push my knives to their limit. And I'm usually pretty close by a fixed blade, so I would go to that if I thought what I was doing would damage the folder.

That being said, I'm still curious what their capabilities are.

[gustophersmob]

The blade on the SAKs is much thinner than on e.g. the Spyderco Endura. It won´t take as much abuse.

Ah, didn't know that. I've not held one side by side, but my memory of the delica was that it was a similar thickness.

At the ricasso:

Outrider blade: 2.42mm
Delica: 2.56mm

So it is pretty close. Thanks for measuring!

Though, to Ron Who's point, the endura is probably even thicker since it's a bigger knife.

[Ron Who]

The blade on the SAKs is much thinner than on e.g. the Spyderco Endura. It won´t take as much abuse.

Ah, didn't know that. I've not held one side by side, but my memory of the delica was that it was a similar thickness.

At the ricasso:

Outrider blade: 2.42mm
Delica: 2.56mm

That´s less of a difference than I thought. Maybe I´m more careful with my SAKs than with other knives even if there´s no reason to.

[Nix]

That´s less of a difference than I thought. Maybe I´m more careful with my SAKs than with other knives even if there´s no reason to.

I measured using my calipers, twice, but there's always the chance that I messed up the measurement. 

I think the SAK blade seems thinner because it's longer and tapers down more quickly. The Delica I measured has a saber grind and really does feel like a stouter blade. The Delica stays thicker over more of the blade. So I think the grinds definitely make the 111mm Spear point feel like a much thinner blade.

And as gustophersmob pointed out, the Delica's blade is pinned to both scales with a bigger pin.

So, I'd guess--just a guess--that the Delica could take more abuse than the 111mm SAK. But I'd like to have more empiric data to really know. 

[gustophersmob]

That´s less of a difference than I thought. Maybe I´m more careful with my SAKs than with other knives even if there´s no reason to.

I measured using my calipers, twice, but there's always the chance that I messed up the measurement. 

I think the SAK blade seems thinner because it's longer and tapers down more quickly. The Delica I measured has a saber grind and really does feel like a stouter blade. The Delica stays thicker over more of the blade. So I think the grinds definitely make the 111mm Spear point feel like a much thinner blade.

And as gustophersmob pointed out, the Delica's blade is pinned to both scales with a bigger pin.

So, I'd guess--just a guess--that the Delica could take more abuse than the 111mm SAK. But I'd like to have more empiric data to really know. 

I honestly think what would likely fail first on a 111mm knife like the sentinel is the aluminum liner. Even if the brass pivot loosen up, you could peen it tight again, but if it got twisted too much, I could see the liner failing. On a knife like the delica, there is a nested steel liner and the scale itself adds strength, so it is probably more resistant to torsional or twisting stresses.

Now, for pure cutting, without twisting, I have a feeling the differences don't matter much in real world usage.

[Nix]

Last set of measurements I did outside in the freezing garage. I redid the measurements inside and included a second Delica and an OHT (not pictured).

At the ricasso:

OHT:                  2.45 mm
Outrider blade:  2.44 mm
VG-10 Delica:   2.52 mm
ZDP Delica:      2.51mm

[gustophersmob]

Just so no one thinks I'm knocking the 111mm series, I really like the shape and feel of them. For some reason I find do it appealing, much more so than other one handed folders.

I think I just want them to be as robust as a tactical folder, even if there's no real need for it

[gustophersmob]

Last set of measurements I did outside in the freezing garage. I redid the measurements inside and included a second Delica and an OHT (not pictured).

At the ricasso:

OHT:                  2.45 mm
Outrider blade:  2.44 mm
VG-10 Delica:   2.52 mm
ZDP Delica:      2.51mm

(Image removed from quote.)

Thanks for taking the time to make the measurements!

I agree, even though the numbers  don't really show it, the spyderco blade does seem more substantial.

Like I mentioned above though, I think the weak link is likely to be the scale and pivot more so than the blade.

[sir_mike]

I too would like to see or find reviews on these 111mm's that actually show some harder use.  Not so much of finding their breaking point but more like that you are in a situation that requires some survival. 

If I were to pick a 111mm sak I think the best size vs tool selection for such a situation like bushcrafting/camping would be the Outrider since it has the saw and scissors to go with the blade and it is nice to have a bit longer blade and saw if outdoors!  That is the 111mm sak that I have for my outdoors trips.

Since it is a folder and not a fixed blade, you know if has to be used with more caution on whatever tasks you are doing so you have to use your head!

[Gath]

That´s less of a difference than I thought. Maybe I´m more careful with my SAKs than with other knives even if there´s no reason to.

I measured using my calipers, twice, but there's always the chance that I messed up the measurement. 

Mistake, measuring once you can be sure with calibers, subsequent measurements always just make you more and more unsure.

[dks]

Also look into the Ranger models, from Wenger

[ThePeacent]

well, any well tempered blade made of decent steel will hold up to much more abuse than we give them credit for. 

Thousands of reviews, tests and videos show how a humble Opinel is extremely hard to break and will bend, take hits, prying and hitting before snapping, 
there's many recordings of a folding knife breaking at the pivot, scales, liners or lock before the blade chips or cracks badly. Thousands of them, at your reach to see just now 

In a folding knife, 90% of the damage that will result in an unusable or dangerous knife is on a part other than the blade.
There are also too many facotrs overall to rate a knife as "hard use" or "will stand abuse" other than the blade's thinness, such as:

- blade shape, length, TBE, grind type, bevel, microbevel, steel type, steel composition, steel heat treatment
- pivots size, material, thickness, position, diameter, material quality, heat treatment
- scales material, size, shape, "covering" of the liners, presence of liners or lack thereof, liner material, thickness, way of attachment to the scales, cutouts or not, skeletonized or not
- pins, screws and their material, relative positions, girth, width, length, hollow or solid, plastic, aluminum, steel...

and many other factors, such as locks, springs, tolerances, washers, etc. 

So any decent knife from any decent company would be good enough on all those points for the purpose it was designed. The Delica, Outrider or Opinel are not chopper, prybars, shanks or axes. The Cold Steel Rajah, ZT0561 or CRKT M16 are not fine gentleman folders, with slicey grinds and detailed work oriented construction   

Both will do all they were designed to do and most of them will bend, chip or dent before the blade becomes unusable, and oftentimes the other parts of the nife will fail before the blade -even a thin, humble teel one- will break   

and on a 111mm SAK, most times you'll have a saw to cut through wood, a screwdriver to pry with and an awl to punch and pierce things before you need to use your edge for that   

[gustophersmob]

well, any well tempered blade made of decent steel will hold up to much more abuse than we give them credit for. 

Thousands of reviews, tests and videos show how a humble Opinel is extremely hard to break and will bend, take hits, prying and hitting before snapping, 
there's many recordings of a folding knife breaking at the pivot, scales, liners or lock before the blade chips or cracks badly. Thousands of them, at your reach to see just now 

In a folding knife, 90% of the damage that will result in an unusable or dangerous knife is on a part other than the blade.
There are also too many facotrs overall to rate a knife as "hard use" or "will stand abuse" other than the blade's thinness, such as:

- blade shape, length, TBE, grind type, bevel, microbevel, steel type, steel composition, steel heat treatment
- pivots size, material, thickness, position, diameter, material quality, heat treatment
- scales material, size, shape, "covering" of the liners, presence of liners or lack thereof, liner material, thickness, way of attachment to the scales, cutouts or not, skeletonized or not
- pins, screws and their material, relative positions, girth, width, length, hollow or solid, plastic, aluminum, steel...

and many other factors, such as locks, springs, tolerances, washers, etc. 

So any decent knife from any decent company would be good enough on all those points for the purpose it was designed. The Delica, Outrider or Opinel are not chopper, prybars, shanks or axes. The Cold Steel Rajah, ZT0561 or CRKT M16 are not fine gentleman folders, with slicey grinds and detailed work oriented construction   

Both will do all they were designed to do and most of them will bend, chip or dent before the blade becomes unusable, and oftentimes the other parts of the nife will fail before the blade -even a thin, humble teel one- will break   

and on a 111mm SAK, most times you'll have a saw to cut through wood, a screwdriver to pry with and an awl to punch and pierce things before you need to use your edge for that   

All good points. Thanks for your thoughts!

To clarify, though, I wasn't really talking about the blade, but the pivot and scales as I believe those would likely fail before the blade would.

[Lynn LeFey]

I handed my Delica off to my brother in law for about five seconds, and he snapped off the tip of the blade. I've never snapped a SAK blade. I've seen the broken blades on samples all over ebay, but I've never managed it. Because it seems like SAK blades bend before they break, and if you're not a complete idiot, you know it's coming. Not so with a Spyderco.

This is exactly one tiny point of data in a huge world of information. Take it as you will.

But for my money, I'd rather have a 111mm SAK than a Spyderco. Oh... yeah, and FOR the money, you could get TWO 111mm instead of a Spyderco.

I've batoned with my 111mm Rucksack, and with my 93mm Farmer. You just have to be cautious. I'm sure that's the same as with any folder.

If I had a beat-up GAK or something, I'd happily do a test-to-destruction, because I'm REALLY curious how much pry force could be put on that big locking flathead.

[gustophersmob]

...

But for my money, I'd rather have a 111mm SAK than a Spyderco. Oh... yeah, and FOR the money, you could get TWO 111mm instead of a Spyderco.

...

Lol, very true

[T14]

I never baton anything, ever. You can get camp hatchets that weighs less than a pound, are small enough to fit in a "large" pants pocket and that will run rings around any knife in existence when processing firewood. As a bonus it will handle orders of magnitude more abuse than knives without complaint.

But I digress... sorry about that... 

[israelpiper]

While only 93mm, note that the Pioneer and associated knives have much sturdier blades than most SAKs. Being shorter than the 111mm blades, the thickness of the Pioneer blade makes it quite the heavy-duty small blade, though the 111mm blades are a bit thicker as well as longer.

I also wonder if the design of the one-handed 111mm Victorinox blade doesn't make it sturdier than the two-hand openers, because of that extra metal towards the base.