Damascus steel...a huge price for aesthetics?

[Chako]

I will second that Bob. Mr Whippy said it very well. 

[Styerman]

I've had a few modern ones , very easy to sharpen , has a nasty toothy edge . very tuff , as in resilient . Very easy to maintain as it is already rusted- ie: ascid etched .

Chris

[Raukodur]

But this is my point.

The modern stuff is purely aesthetical, but it is advertised as being something more, that the metal itself is real damascus steel, made with the ancient technique, identical to the original product, and so a far superior steel.

Using this tactic, the prices for basically an aesthetic difference is, or can be, quite high, or exorbitant.

I dont know about anyone else here, but before I read the article I posted in the OP, I thought this way as well, and so thought the high prices were partly justified (some are so high as to just be silly). But now, having realised I would basically be paying for a different look and not much more, YES, I would be willing to pay MORE (since they look so cool), but not the kind of prices we see, where the same knife or blade can be 2 or 3 times cheaper, or even more, than a normal steel equivalent, just because it is pattern welded steel that looks like damascus and is advertised as the real deal.

[Styerman]

It's not magic , and "Damascus" steel is now semi mass produced , in both Sweden and Japan . Some of it is very good , witness high end Japanese kitchen knives , that use VG10 as the hard layer .

Chris

[1jump2many]

Damascus steel on a SAK is all about the "Bling" factor.  They are like one of those limited edition Heritage SAK's.  There are exceptions to every rule, but you can bet the vast majority of those who buy one isn't going to EDC it.  It's going to be a collector.  Nothing wrong with that but I find the idea that someone is actually going to buy one because the blade is better for every day use is laughable. 

[Grant Lamontagne]

I have been waiting until I had a moment to wade into this one properly, and I guess the time is right.

Real Damascus is often referred to as Wootz Damascus, while the steel we currently refer to as Damascus is pattern welded.  Pattern Welded Damascus looks similar to the old versions, but has often been compared to Wootz Damascus unfavorably when it comes to performance.  Whether that has any basis in reality, or whether it's simply legend, I can't say, as any 300 year old swords are worth more than my toy budget can support, and after so many years I would imagine they retain few of their original qualities.  Even so, I have no doubt that they managed to outperform the existing swords of the time, as is well documented in literature from the Crusades and other documents of the time.

Five or six years ago I read in Scientific American that a metallurgist had been allowed to segment and study the patterns of a few original surviving Wootz Damascus swords- destroying them, but increasing the possibilities of being able to recover the lost art of creating "real" Wootz Damascus.  Judging by the article (and I'll scan it if I can find it in case anyone wants to read it) the author seems to have been able to successfully recreate Wootz Damascus using a combination of modern and ancient techniques.  He states that testing of his "Damascus" is virtually identical to the old swords according to electron microscope views, x rays and chemical testing.  

I can't imagine what his budget was for this stuff, but he's obviously intelligent enough to make accurate conclusions, and one usually doesn't try to scam people to make it big in a small niche like recreation swords, so I tend to believe it.  I have another article about it that was in a newspaper, and basically backs up the discovery.

So, in short, pattern welded Damascus is significantly less labor intensive to make, although it appears that real Damascus is indeed available to those who may want to pay for it.

Oh, and here's some more info:
http://archaeology.about.com/od/ancientweapons/a/damascus_steel_2.htm

Def

[Mr. Whippy]

I have been waiting until I had a moment to wade into this one properly, and I guess the time is right.

Five or six years ago I read in Scientific American that a metallurgist had been allowed to segment and study the patterns of a few original surviving Wootz Damascus swords- destroying them, but increasing the possibilities of being able to recover the lost art of creating "real" Wootz Damascus.  Judging by the article (and I'll scan it if I can find it in case anyone wants to read it) the author seems to have been able to successfully recreate Wootz Damascus using a combination of modern and ancient techniques.  He states that testing of his "Damascus" is virtually identical to the old swords according to electron microscope views, x rays and chemical testing.  

Yes please!  I'd love to read it.

[Raukodur]

I have been waiting until I had a moment to wade into this one properly, and I guess the time is right.

Real Damascus is often referred to as Wootz Damascus, while the steel we currently refer to as Damascus is pattern welded.  Pattern Welded Damascus looks similar to the old versions, but has often been compared to Wootz Damascus unfavorably when it comes to performance.  Whether that has any basis in reality, or whether it's simply legend, I can't say, as any 300 year old swords are worth more than my toy budget can support, and after so many years I would imagine they retain few of their original qualities.  Even so, I have no doubt that they managed to outperform the existing swords of the time, as is well documented in literature from the Crusades and other documents of the time.

Five or six years ago I read in Scientific American that a metallurgist had been allowed to segment and study the patterns of a few original surviving Wootz Damascus swords- destroying them, but increasing the possibilities of being able to recover the lost art of creating "real" Wootz Damascus.  Judging by the article (and I'll scan it if I can find it in case anyone wants to read it) the author seems to have been able to successfully recreate Wootz Damascus using a combination of modern and ancient techniques.  He states that testing of his "Damascus" is virtually identical to the old swords according to electron microscope views, x rays and chemical testing.  

I can't imagine what his budget was for this stuff, but he's obviously intelligent enough to make accurate conclusions, and one usually doesn't try to scam people to make it big in a small niche like recreation swords, so I tend to believe it.  I have another article about it that was in a newspaper, and basically backs up the discovery.

So, in short, pattern welded Damascus is significantly less labor intensive to make, although it appears that real Damascus is indeed available to those who may want to pay for it.

Oh, and here's some more info:
http://archaeology.about.com/od/ancientweapons/a/damascus_steel_2.htm

Def

Yep, this is exactly what I've found out as well since developing an interest in damascus all of about 3 days ago as a way of wasting time when I should be revising for my last exam

[Bill.H]

While a bit dated, there's a good explanation of damascus/wootz/pattern welded steels here.

There was a major breakthrough in Wootz reproduction about 2 years ago, unfortunately I can't find the link right now. If I do find it I'll post it later.

[Smitty44]

All I know for sure is that the guy that made the sword in KILL BILL is not making any more swords.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I have found the article.  If anyone wants to read it, send me a PM.  For obvious reasons, I don't want to make the download public.  Also, it was older than I thought, being the January 2001 issue.

Def