2010 Shot - Multitasker

[Benner]

Despite not having the gun, I am drooling over the MT 

[Multitaskertools]

any chance of you selling the bit carrier separately?  It has to be one of the best bit carriers I have seen. 

sure thing, once i get some in, i will PM you

[Santos]

Got one in mind? 

And why do I get the feeling your wife is going to want to test your new AR15 on me? 

Def

Not to worry....she prefers strangulation to gunfire, and I am the sole beneficiary of her ill intent.


I was browsing the Rock River Arms site just this afternoon but I need someone to explain to me the pros and cons of gas guns versus piston guns    

Direct gas impingement is the original operating system designed by Gene Stoner for the AR-10 and later adopted for the scaled down AR-15. The gas is bled off of the barrel down the gas port and directly (hence direct impingement) on to the bold carrier which in turn unlocks the bolt and cycles the rifle.
The controversy with this system is that A: if cheap/"dirty" ammo is used it will clog up the rifle and render it useless. B: if the gun is not properly maintained and cleaned even if you shoot "clean" ammo it will start acting up on you.
Gas piston ARs are a "new" phenomenon. Gas pistons were around a long time and still are the most common rifle operating system. In this system the gas is bled off the gas port and instead of acting directly on the bolt carrier it pushes on a piston which moves the bolt carrier unlocking the bolt and cycling the weapon.
The advantages of the piston is that it's cleaner, no carbon and other powder residue enter the receiver and the rifle is cleaner after a day of shooting and easier to maintain in the field.
Hope this explains the differences.   

Isn't that fundamentally what breaks people down into the Ar15/akm debate?

[1jump2many]

Isn't that fundamentally what breaks people down into the Ar15/akm debate?

That's why it's best to have both, no need to debate about it.  Just have fun shooting them. 

[donvito]

Got one in mind? 

And why do I get the feeling your wife is going to want to test your new AR15 on me? 

Def

Not to worry....she prefers strangulation to gunfire, and I am the sole beneficiary of her ill intent.


I was browsing the Rock River Arms site just this afternoon but I need someone to explain to me the pros and cons of gas guns versus piston guns    

Direct gas impingement is the original operating system designed by Gene Stoner for the AR-10 and later adopted for the scaled down AR-15. The gas is bled off of the barrel down the gas port and directly (hence direct impingement) on to the bold carrier which in turn unlocks the bolt and cycles the rifle.
The controversy with this system is that A: if cheap/"dirty" ammo is used it will clog up the rifle and render it useless. B: if the gun is not properly maintained and cleaned even if you shoot "clean" ammo it will start acting up on you.
Gas piston ARs are a "new" phenomenon. Gas pistons were around a long time and still are the most common rifle operating system. In this system the gas is bled off the gas port and instead of acting directly on the bolt carrier it pushes on a piston which moves the bolt carrier unlocking the bolt and cycling the weapon.
The advantages of the piston is that it's cleaner, no carbon and other powder residue enter the receiver and the rifle is cleaner after a day of shooting and easier to maintain in the field.
Hope this explains the differences.   

Isn't that fundamentally what breaks people down into the Ar15/akm debate?

Only one part of the debate. Accuracy is another, AR rifles are a lot more accurate, and "stopping power" is often debated as well. AK rifles are not build to tight tolerances and thus are more reliable in sandy muddy environment at the price of accuracy, and AR sacrificing reliability and gaining in accuracy.   

Check this link out, funny and it has some truth to it. http://www.mouseguns.com/compare.htm

[Magnus]

stupid question from a guy that can't own guns:  Why do people still buy/compare the AK-47 when it was made obsolete years ago by the AK74/AK100 series?

any chance of you selling the bit carrier separately?  It has to be one of the best bit carriers I have seen. 

sure thing, once i get some in, i will PM you

That would be great, thanks.  If you ever make a general purpose MT, I will definitely be buying one.

[1jump2many]

stupid question from a guy that can't own guns:  Why do people still buy/compare the AK-47 when it was made obsolete years ago by the AK74/AK100 series?

That's just it, they aren't obsolete.  I don't have an AK-47 anymore but now have an AK-74.  The only difference is basically the caliber size.  An AK-47 is 7.62 and the AK-74 was the Soviet Union's answer to NATO moving to a 5.56 round with a 5.45 round.  You will still see millions of AK-47's still in use all around the world today.  They are a lot cheaper than AR weapons and extremely dependable.  AK's are easier to clean and maintain than AR's.  It's not that AR's are hard to clean but are a bit more involved.  I'm not talking about AR's or AK's with multiple accessories installed but just the basic versions of both. 

[AHB]

Despite not having the gun, I am drooling over the MT 

Me too... 
But I don't really have to get a gun for getting one of these, right..? 

[SlackOne]

stupid question from a guy that can't own guns:  Why do people still buy/compare the AK-47 when it was made obsolete years ago by the AK74/AK100 series?

That's just it, they aren't obsolete.  I don't have an AK-47 anymore but now have an AK-74.  The only difference is basically the caliber size.  An AK-47 is 7.62 and the AK-74 was the Soviet Union's answer to NATO moving to a 5.56 round with a 5.45 round.  You will still see millions of AK-47's still in use all around the world today.  They are a lot cheaper than AR weapons and extremely dependable.  AK's are easier to clean and maintain than AR's.  It's not that AR's are hard to clean but are a bit more involved.  I'm not talking about AR's or AK's with multiple accessories installed but just the basic versions of both. 

QFT.  Also, the 7.62x39mm round is *generally* more useful to a civilian than the 5.45x39mm round.  A 7.62 is an adequate deer and hog hunting caliber, comparable in end ballistics to the "all-American" deer round, the .30-30.  So the 47 is still the most commonly seen version in the States, with the 7.62mm SKS-45 rifle being even more prolific.

The 74 is picking up in popularity almost entirely based on the cost of the ammo.  There has been an abundance of 5.45mm ammo floating around at sane costs...which can't be said about a whole lot of other calibers at the moment.

[SoDak]

stupid question from a guy that can't own guns:  Why do people still buy/compare the AK-47 when it was made obsolete years ago by the AK74/AK100 series?

any chance of you selling the bit carrier separately?  It has to be one of the best bit carriers I have seen. 

sure thing, once i get some in, i will PM you

That would be great, thanks.  If you ever make a general purpose MT, I will definitely be buying one.

We can get a form of the AK100 series here, called the saiga. Problem is that they are sporterized so it takes some work to go from this http://www.centerfiresystems.com/sai-762.aspx to this http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=17015&cat=353&page=1 . I have an SGL21 and I have to say it is quite a bit nicer than my romanian ak (wasr-10). The only thing that sucks about buying a 7.62 saiga is that nobody imports parts, so in the rare event you break an extractor, you're kinda in trouble.

[Benner]

Despite not having the gun, I am drooling over the MT 

Me too... 
But I don't really have to get a gun for getting one of these, right..? 

Nah. 

[Multitaskertools]

stupid question from a guy that can't own guns:  Why do people still buy/compare the AK-47 when it was made obsolete years ago by the AK74/AK100 series?

Highly debatable that the AK74 is superior; the 5.45 cartridge wasnt adopted by the Chinese PLA because they felt it lacked punch - they are now using a 5.8 caliber round.

Also the AK100 series is just a freshened up version of the original, nothing revolutionary going on    The new AK107 is the first significant design evolution I've seen to the original Kalashnikov action.

The KEY to the success of the Kalashnikov design is it's manufacturing (and operational) simplicity. Cheap to produce (at least the stamped receiver version) and with minimal operator maintenance reqd. For example, the gas piston/bolt carrier system is elegantly simplistic and utterly reliable, but the sheer mass of the reciprocating assy means it generates quite a significant recoil impulse.



In other words, if you are shooting an AK in full-auto mode, anything more than a short burst results in "spray and pray"    The direct impingement system of the M16/M4 generates far less felt recoil, so the gun is far easier to control in full-auto mode, and the lockup method of its bolt insures greater inherent accuracy.

There are other advantages/disadvantages to each platform:

Magazines - the aluminum GI mags for the M16/M4 are notoriously flimsy; bend on of the magazine feed lips and your chances of a misfeed increase dramatically; the magazine follower design is not the best either.  The newer aftermarket magazines, such as the Magpul PMAG, address these issues and improve magazine reliability quite a bit. However, the Kalashnikov has never had a magazine issue to my knowledge. The feed lips are exceptionally robust, and the magazine spring is rated about 25% over the intended 30rd capacity.

Platform modularity - this is a REAL advantage of the AR platform. By standardizing on the Picatinny/MIL-STD-1913 rail specification, the parts interchangeability of sights/bipods/lasers/etc. is unrivaled. Moreover, from an ergonomic standpoint, having the flat rail platform as the mounting base for items such as scope mounts means that these items are better integrated into the platform, rather than being an afterthought (as on the AK)



The AK on the otherhand, was designed in an age when optical sights for infantry weapons wasnt in vogue, and its cookie cutter design doesnt lend itself well to aftermarket accessories.

[SoDak]

The AK on the otherhand, was designed in an age when optical sights for infantry weapons wasnt in vogue, and its cookie cutter design doesnt lend itself well to aftermarket accessories.

That's been my biggest hangup with the ak. I ended up putting an aimpoint on a MI quad rail handguard and while the setup works, it is incredibly heavy(at least in ak terms). It seems like most ak accessories end up either being poor quality, heavy, or expensive. I think the biggest challenge with the ak market is making good/useful accessories at a reasonable cost. I'm starting to see more ak goodies out there, but it's still nowhere near the AR market.

[Santos]

well i don't know what happened but i had another paragraph under the
'isn't that the ar15/ak47'

i said, i hope not to derail this thread... (i believe its for the multitakser... you making a AK multitasker ?)

What i put in the foot note is that either 'system'
often has variants that address the other.. like the current korean military m16 clone has the gas piston set up (i guess they decided the accuracy was not worth the reliabily)  and their are variants of the ak that have heavier longer barrells for accuracy (like the Tabuk which is a RPK sniper rile)

As a non-shooter the AK appeals to me, if i want super accuracy i would get a bolt action rifle
(if i ever get a cnc machine i want to build a super-AK)

[Multitaskertools]

i said, i hope not to derail this thread... (i believe its for the multitakser... you making a AK multitasker ?)

i dont mind the AK vs AR discussion - I like talking guns

no plans to make an AK version of the Multitasker - the gun doesnt really need a "maintenance" tool, and the AK market in the US has really gone low-end with the advent of all the BATF 922(r) parts guns - not really the target demographic for my tools.

1st batch of production-spec tools should ship out in about 10 days, im stoked!

[Sparky415]

i said, i hope not to derail this thread... (i believe its for the multitakser... you making a AK multitasker ?)

1st batch of production-spec tools should ship out in about 10 days, im stoked!

Good luck Mate!

(It's like waiting for a baby to be born) 

[CUTZ SIX]

Good luck, and if you make a "civilian" MT, let us know!

[Santos]

no plans to make an AK version of the Multitasker - the gun doesnt really need a "maintenance" tool, and the AK market in the US has really gone low-end with the advent of all the BATF 922(r) parts guns - not really the target demographic for my tools.

true and i think an AK multitool probably would have more kinship with a sog microclip or a russian Noks(?) Biker

[Multitaskertools]

Good luck, and if you make a "civilian" MT, let us know!

based on the positive comments here, i would say it is a definite possibility, i just cant commit to a timetable yet 

[Styerman]

I'm guessing I'll end up with one of these puppies . The billit cut heads at RC 56-7 clinch the deal for me . The only downside , a lot of the AR specific tools don't look too usefull for my personal EDC needs . A "Civilian/Police/EMS " version would be sweet .

Chris

[Multitaskertools]

when the time comes, and with Admin's approval, i will create a thread asking you guys what tools u want to see in an EDC version Multitasker 

i cant commit to a timetable because production is allocated out several months in advance at the moment 

[Styerman]

Cool , an outfit who actually listens to end users ! I suspect that one of your tuffest challenges will be standing on faces to assure quality .

Chris

[Sparky415]

when the time comes, and with Admin's approval, i will create a thread asking you guys what tools u want to see in an EDC version Multitasker  

And there will be a huge fight! 


 

[donvito]

A MT build with MT.O input would be nice

[MattBernier]

when the time comes, and with Admin's approval, i will create a thread asking you guys what tools u want to see in an EDC version Multitasker 

i cant commit to a timetable because production is allocated out several months in advance at the moment 

I will be thrilled to pieces if/when I see that. There's already so many things to like about your tool- the long-shank, fully 3-dimensional bit driver, the plier head made of tool steel, all outside opening tools- you could absolutely put out the best EDC multi in the world.

[Multitaskertools]

I will be thrilled to pieces if/when I see that. There's already so many things to like about your tool- the long-shank, fully 3-dimensional bit driver, the plier head made of tool steel, all outside opening tools- you could absolutely put out the best EDC multi in the world.

Thanks a lot 

Off to JAX in the AM to meet with the Wounded Warrior Project folks and make our initial donation of $2,000 

I hope Leatherman steps up to the plate and makes a similar donation with their MUT, they can afford it with a MSRP of 150+ 

[thebullfrog]

Oh man I'd be all over a general use version of that thing. Sooooo much potential for multi-tool win.

[Multitaskertools]

back from JAX, met up with the Wounded Warrior Project folks and handed over our initial donation of $2,000 (not just the ceremonial check) 

our LE/Military Sales Mgr., Ray Satterfield, is an ex-Army Ranger and Desert Storm vet



definitely a worthwhile cause IMO, hope to make a much larger contribution next year!



 

[jackbootedthug]

Awesome work! Glad to see you guys contributing to such a worthwhile cause! 

[donvito]