Handguns - any thoughts on small frame 45 auto ??? (AMMENDED)

[eodtech]

I have narrowed the field down to two.... question is what caliber to order.....

1. The SIG SAUER - SP2022 is the latest version of our popular polymer framed pistol and features a durable, lightweight and wear-resistant polymer frame with the added tactical versatility of an M1913 Picatinny rail and comes with two interchangeable grips. The slide is machined from a solid block of stainless steel and protected by SIG’s black Nitron® finish. Available in 9mm + .357SIG . the SP2022 can easily be converted from a Double-Action/Single-Action to a Double-Action Only configuration through a unique integral fire control unit. It also features the SIG SAUER® four-point safety system. The SIG SAUER® polymer framed pistols has earned an enviable reputation and proven track record of reliable performance in the hands of law enforcement professionals. The SP2022 – the only polymer framed pistol engineered to perform, built to protect and good enough to be called a SIG SAUER®.


2. The SIG SAUER - P239 Two-Tone was developed in response to demands from law enforcement and federal agents for a compact back-up pistol ideal for off duty concealed carry. The slim profile of this single-stack pistol provides easy concealment without sacrificing handling. The P239 Two-Tone features a stainless steel slide machined from barstock and left in Natural Stainless finish. The P239 Two-Tone is available in  calibers – 9mm, .357SIG .

My question is the 9mm vs 357SIG  -  a lot of LEO's are going to the 357SIG round, and I am undecided what caliber to order.

I am leaning towards 2022 in 9mm and get the P239 in 357SIG ( I would EDC the P239 ( small, concealable and a little more knock down power)in my line of work as an investigator , and use the 2022 for proficiency training, the range and competition shooting).

357SIG ammo

SIG ARMS www site

[665ae]

I think a lot of it has to do with what you intend to do with it.  9mm ammo is cheap and readily available.  The last time I looked, .357SIG was still pretty expensive. 

I'm curious why you want to EDC the 357SIG round?  Is there a reason you would need it? 

[Grant Lamontagne]

If it's an EDC item I would probably stick with the smaller, lighter and more readily available 9mm myself.  Unless the .357 is more popular in the areas you are than the areas I was in, the 9mm is always in stock, everywhere.  The .357 is only usually in stock most places.  Not a big deal since you pretty well always come home with the same rounds you left with, but it's always nice to have that supply line available.

Def

[eodtech]

With more and more LE agencies going to the 357SIG round it's quite common now, infact they are selling the round in bulk tubs of 500 and 1000 rounds. This is a 357SIG round, different than a regular 357 for revolvers, developed by SIG for their weapons.

INFO on 357SIG


Well I went looking at  "SIG's"  today, there is a small gun shop near me that is not a SIG dealer but is very knowledgeable on guns, here is a recap.

He told me , and I called SIG and confirmed it, the model P239, which is what I am looking to buy, comes in 9mm, 357SIG and 40S&W . If you buy a 40s&W you can buy an extra 357SIG barrel and they are a 100 % interchangeable fit, to the point they use the exact same magazines. Extra barrels are around $100 cop price from SIG.

So my plan is to order one P239 in 9mm AND one P239 in 40S&W and one extra barrel in 357SIG

[Grant Lamontagne]

Pretty sweet.  I didn't know a separate barrel was available for that.  Dang, I have been out of guns too long....

Once I sold off my old Glock 20 I pretty well lost interest.

Def

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

Pretty sweet.  I didn't know a separate barrel was available for that.  Dang, I have been out of guns too long....

Once I sold off my old Glock 20 I pretty well lost interest.

Def

Same here, I used to be well into guns, but after dunblaine the goverment banned pistols so my interest in those kinda fizzeled out, I,d still love to get another lee enfield 303 though

I loved that rifle

Sound like the right decition buying the 40s&w and the spare 357 barrel, you've got all your bases covered then

[eodtech]

Thought some of you might want to know that GLOCK is now offering its $100 off on Glocks to Military / LE / EMS / fire / security personnel - it is confirmed accurate information. The sales rep. said, "Yeah, it falls under Homeland Security". So if you 1st responder folks,  want to buy a weapon just call Glock at (770) 432-1202 and get a list of "GLOCK Law Enforcement Dealers" in your state, show up with the required credentials and you're done. I'm getting a GLOCK 26 in a few days. ORIGINAL POST Glock Talk has more detailed info on credentials / certifications needed and other documentation required before you can purchase your GLOCK. No hurdles to jump over, just make sure you have what is needed or you'll be making a second trip to the dealer.

Glock USA www site

[eodtech]

Well I picked up a sub compact Glock G26, 9mm today at the local Glock LE distributor, nice weapon.  I had a Glock in the 1980's but it was just too big, the G26 fits nice in a pocket and for under $400 it’s a steal - comes with case, 3 magazines, night sights, etc.

Still undecided on what caliber SIG to get, the P239 is a sure thing but what caliber ( 357SIG or 40S&W ) is undecided.

[eodtech]

UPDATE: 8/23/2007

I decided not to get the SIG, I can get 2 Glocks for the price of one SIG, even with a LEO discount from SIG.

I looking at a  new Glock P36 ( single stack 6 shot - 45 AUTO ) on a special at a local dealer for $399. Too good an offer to refuse.
Now I've got to sell my Ruger SP101 s/s 9mm revolver, getting too many guns.

Then my son hits me up for a handgun, so he got a used Glock 27 ( 40 S&W )- 3 magazines, night sights, and ammo for $299. 

Now I really am gun poor.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Nice!  I'd make you an offer on that wheelgun but importing bang bangs is too much of a pain in the arse.

Sounds like you got some really good deals though!  I have always liked Glocks- they have the reliability, accuracy, function and cost I like in... well pretty much anything!

Def

[eodtech]

SOLD the Ruger SP101 .................... now


I am considering buying one of the following weapons to carry concealed - and have made no decision based on what I have read. A trip to a firearms dealer is pending. Three weapons ( 45 AUTO ) are being considered: Glock P36, SIG P220 Compact, Ruger P345 /KP345.

Any comments on these 45 autos?

[665ae]

Out of those three I would go with the SIG.  I think of the three, it's the smallest size wise. (not positive about that.)   I absolutely love Ruger pistols, but I don't think they'd be all that great for concealed carry. 

I personally can't stand Glocks... but that's just me.

[eodtech]

UPDATE:  9/3/07 -
My other NEW "off duty" weapon is a SIG P220 Carry  ( 45 ACP ) - purchased last Saturday second hand from a local Pawn Shop. The 220 is a more "robust" weapon and is tough to beat for a concealed weapon to carry in a holster on a regular basis ( it's too big to fit in a pocket).


I've owned S&W, Colt, Glock, SIG and Ruger handguns, and in my opinion SIGs are #1 based on 45 years experience carrying a handgun AND shooting competition matches.

SIGARMS WWW site

[Grant Lamontagne]

I personally can't stand Glocks... but that's just me.

Do tell.  Is it a feel thing or a "what the heck were they thinking" thing?  When it comes to semi autos I prefer Glocks, but then they are what I have used/carried most.  I still prefer a revolver over a semi, and I like S&W's most there, but a S&W semi makes about as much sense to me as the 4x4 made by Lamborghini.  Sure they did it, but why?

I find the Glock to be a comfortable, smooth, no nonsense semi, and quite reliable in adverse weather conditions, but I'd love to hear what your thoughts are.

The only things I don't like about Glocks is you don't need fancy tools to take them apart (you may have noticed I have an affinity for tools! ) and I have never actually experienced the story that has been going around for years where the Glock can accidentally go full auto under certain conditions.  I think that would be pretty cool to squeeze and be surprised by 17 shots firing off in a couple seconds, although I am certain the RO wouldn't find it that funny!

Def

[eodtech]

http://www.gunshopfinder.com/smithandwesson/smithandwessonmodel627.asp

Nice weapon

[ringzero]

I personally can't stand Glocks... but that's just me.

Do tell.  Is it a feel thing or a "what the heck were they thinking" thing?  When it comes to semi autos I prefer Glocks, but then they are what I have used/carried most.  I still prefer a revolver over a semi, and I like S&W's most there, but a S&W semi makes about as much sense to me as the 4x4 made by Lamborghini.  Sure they did it, but why?

I've always been partial to S&W revolvers over Colt or Ruger revolvers.  Maybe I just prefer the ergonomics of the S&W revolvers over the competitors' models.

For several years S&W has been really innovative in coming out with lightweight titanium and scandium revolvers and variations of its classic heavy revolvers.  Too much happening for me to keep up with.

Some of the newer S&W semiautos are actually designs licensed from Walther IIRC.  Supposedly, the various S&W M&P models are quite good, as is the orignal Walther pistol they are based on.

Licensing a design from a firm with extensive experience in autopistols is probably a smart move for S&W, because some of the S&W designs of the past have been pretty lame.

Some of the older S&W .45 pistols were rather bizarre.  Big, ugly, un-ergonomic, and quite expensive.  I never owned any of those S&W .45s - just looking at them made me wonder: "Whoever designed this monstrosity - what were they thinking?"

I did own a few of the older model S&W 9mm autopistols that were excellent shooters that never gave me any me trouble.  Those models were never among the best of 9mm pistols, but they were certainly adequate and well-liked by many shooters.

.
   

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

I'm a brit so technically at least I've got next to no experience with handgun's .

But I've always prefered revolver's as the way I see it if you target/oponent is in handgun range (ie to bloody close) you want a very reliable gun with a powerful, but slow moving bullet (we brits had a thing about 455 webley's ;D) that is goin to be totally reliable mechanically, and if you've got a misfire, won't need an elaborate weapon clearing drill, just another pull of the trigger

Otherwise you run the risk of your opponant closing you down and dispatching you, in my very subjective opinion

[Grant Lamontagne]

Funny, I thought self defense in the UK was limited to "Say old chap, you are a might close.  I'd suggest you back off a smidge or I'll tell the Queen!"

Very much more civilized than self defense in Canada which consists of pulling the other guy's shirt over his head so he can't move his arms, then kick him in the groin with an ice skate!

Def

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

Funny, I thought self defense in the UK was limited to "Say old chap, you are a might close.  I'd suggest you back off a smidge or I'll tell the Queen!"

Very much more civilized than self defense in Canada which consists of pulling the other guy's shirt over his head so he can't move his arms, then kick him in the groin with an ice skate!

Def

 

Maybe in some part of britain but not mine ;D

Don't forget we invented modern hand to hand combat...

http://www.cqbservices.com/?page_id=46

[Grant Lamontagne]

Well yes, but I thought that was to be used on foreigners and paparazzi!

Man, I'd love to get my hands on an old smatchet!

Def

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

Well yes, but I thought that was to be used on foreigners and paparazzi!

Man, I'd love to get my hands on an old smatchet!

Def

Almar and boker do good replica's, tell you missus you want one as a substitute paddle ;D

[CQC-7]

For a small handgun I'd go with the mini glock .45acp.  I forget the model number.  I am very fond of the Glock 21.  I found that it is not too large to carry.  But then again it is not small.  Kahr now makes a .45 compact model.  I'd stay away from the Springfield XD 45 compact although I have handled this weapon I will say that you'd be better off buying a Glock 21 because the Glock is smaller and also because of that darn grip saftey make a crappy grip and bang, instant jam. (and I dont mean strawberry)  

[eodtech]

For a small handgun I'd go with the mini glock .45acp.  I forget the model number.  I am very fond of the Glock 21.  I found that it is not too large to carry.  But then again it is not small.  Kahr now makes a .45 compact model.  I'd stay away from the Springfield XD 45 compact although I have handled this weapon I will say that you'd be better off buying a Glock 21 because the Glock is smaller and also because of that darn grip saftey make a crappy grip and bang, instant jam. (and I dont mean strawberry)  

The sub-compact 45ACP Glock is a model G30, as with the other Glock sub-compacts ( G26, G27, G33, etc) the grip is small and most find they need a magazine extender so their small finger has a forward place to rest rather that tucking the finger under the end of the magazine, very uncomfortable, at least for me. The latest and greatest Glock - G21SF is a real nice weapon - a 45ACP Glock has released the model 21SF, which stands for "Short Frame". The pistol was originally designed to compete in the now canceled US Military Trials that were searching for a .45 ACP pistol to replace the Beretta M9. The first 21SF's designed for the military included revisions such as ambidextrous magazine release and a M1913 Picatinny rail system (which replaces the standard universal rail system on other Glock pistols), along with the frame reduction designed to make the grip more universal. The grip reduction removed material mainly from the backstrap of the grip. Initial information is that only a limited number of 21SF's in full military spec will enter the public market, and that the company is going to mass produce a grip reduced model with the 1913 style frame rails. The 21SF is currently available with the 1913 rail and the Glock rail. Eventually it will be available with the Glock rail and the original style magazine release (for those that prefer it over the ambidextrous release). The G21SF is on my short list for my next 45ACP. The SIG 220 CARRY fits like a glove and is a keeper - the Glock G27 ( 40S&W ) is now for sale.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I like that lil Glock...   SIG is nice too, but there's something about Glocks that appeal to me.  Maybe it's the success they've enjoyed despite knowing absolutely nothing about gunsmithing?

Def

[CQC-7]

You have to give them that much credit at least.  The beauty of a glock is not its looks (how obvious) it is in the performance.  I have never had one jam on me at all.  That includes an errant reload that would barely chamber.  The gun still fired perfectly.

[665ae]

I've had a couple of Glocks jam on me... but in truth it has little to do with why I dislike them.

I think Glocks are unsafe guns.  The 2nd part of that is that most of the Glock owners I've met at the gun range have been unsafe owners.  I've seen at least twice, people trying to holster loaded (chamber empty) firearms and hearing the click of the trigger/firing pin.  If those had been live rounds, those guys could have shot themselves or someone else.
I guess a Glock to me is like a tactical folder.  People buy them because they are cool and have cool pieces/parts.  They don't really understand how to use it, clean it, etc.  They'd come to the range with a less than basic understanding of gun safety or range safety, then put everyone else in danger... all because they think they are some kind of badass now that they have a Glock.

[eodtech]

I think Glocks are unsafe guns.  The 2nd part of that is that most of the Glock owners I've met at the gun range have been unsafe owners.  I've seen at least twice, people trying to holster loaded (chamber empty) firearms and hearing the click of the trigger/firing pin.  If those had been live rounds, those guys could have shot themselves or someone else.

The first month our agency went to Glocks we had more accidental discharges in the first 30 days than we had in the previous 10 years.

I sure like my SIG 220 Carry

[CQC-7]

 

WOW!  I had no Idea that they had an accidental discharge problem with them.  I have never had a problem holstering my Glock.  I may be the exception to the rule but I have never had any problem whatsoever.  I like Sig as well, I just hate the trigger.  If I were in the market for a combat gun I would get a USP expert or Mk23.  For anything else it would have to be the 1911. 

[eodtech]

Just picked up a GLOCK  G21SF  in .45ACP  for $444

[CQC-7]

Heck of a deal.   How does it feel as compared to the original?  I have the old glock 21 and the grip is large.  I guess the SF is supposed to be "the" gun to get this year.