Email from Pockettoolx

[David Bowen]

Seems the folks at Pockettoolx have been reading our forum folks, I got this email this morning and I was told I could post it here for other folks to read.

We've recently seen your postings on the MultiTool.org forum in regards to our originality of the Piranha especially in regards to a Peter Atwood tool.  As we've mentioned previously, we were not influenced in any way by Peter Atwood or his tools in the design of the Piranha.

To get things straight, the first time that I personally saw a "fixed" wrench with multiple sizes was when I used to run CNC laser cutting machines.  These machines only have a few wrench sizes for adjusting nozzles and doing calibrations.  Instead of having to always carry around several wrenches of various sizes the machine tool company, Amada, had created small fixed wrenches with the required sizes.  These laser cut wrenches, or what I would now call a pocket tool, fit easily in our coveralls and made life much easier.  This was back in 2000 but I know that these wrenches were first created in the 1990s.  Having worked in a laser cutting and water jet cutting shop for quite a while, I had seen my fair share of simple sheet metal tools that people had us make. 

Flash forward to 2009.  My friends and I continually ran into situations were we didn't have a proper tool while out in the woods or in the shop.  All of us had Leatherman-type tools but never carried them due to the added weight and lack of style they provided when they were on our belts.  We always had knives, but know better than using them for prying or tightening screws.  So we decided to create something that could fit easily in our front pocket or jacket pocket that could replace our bulky Leathermans.  A few weeks later, the Piranha was born.  (One of our grandfather's had a really old double-ended aligator multi-wrench that is mentioned on our about page on PocketToolX.com -- this also served as inspiration.)

We stumbled upon the Peter Atwood site after we had designed and prototyped the Piranha, but before we had launched the website.  We were amazed at the similarities but were confident that the market would react well to a unique product that was full of features.  Needless to say, we didn't expect the backlash that we did from the pocket tool community and forums.  We are in no way trying to compete with Peter Atwood -- he has his own dedicated group of fans and our products aren't going to stop them from buying his tools.  He has 1000 true fans. 
 
Since coming out with our new products, I think that we've successfully proven that we are an innovative small company that isn't at all some sort of copy-cat.  With the range of products in development slated for launch later this year, we'll be innovating the pocket tool market and introducing some new, never seen before things. 

I hope this makes things more clear for you, please feel free to post this to your forums. 

Regards,
Justin

Honestly I don't know what to say, maybe they are a total spin off and not influenced by Peter Atwood. If so these folks are probably the only person releasing pocket tools that are not inspired in some way. True they will never butt into Peter's market and they won't try to do so. He has his following and Pockettoolx is more for the everyday Joe. Anyways, let me know your thoughts and opinions. Course the guys at PTX are going to be following this.

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

At least we have there side of the argument now

[BIG-TARGET]

Well, this letter does show that there is no conspiracy going on!!  And I'm a conspiracy theorist(Have seen 4 black UN helicopters, 3 UFOs, 1 bigfoot-florida skunk ape variant, 1 Jersey Devil, and I don't drink floridated water)

I just backs the old proverb:"Great minds think alike"

[Mr. Whippy]

Actually,  I'm fairly impressed.  There was no need to send that to you privately.  They could have publically stated it for effect AND they knew you may post it up.

I take them at their word on this.

And btw, some of the older bike tools had graduated wrenches incorporated (but they sucked since they were stamped out of Al).

[David Bowen]

I agree with what you guys are saying. There is a gentleman by the name of Olaf Anderson who makes a tool called the Pry Wonder II and it's eerily close to the TAG Gear B.R.A.T. Olaf says it's what he calls parallel evolution...

http://www.fenixoutfitters.com/olaf-anderson-pry-wonder-ii-176

http://www.tadgear.com/shop.php?id=6

"That is called parallel evolution, I started designing my tools 13 months ago and was only recently able to start making them.

That does look like mine but this is the first time I have seen it before.

I don't mind a little competition but I pride myself on coming up with my own ideas from scratch.

... and mine has more features  "

So maybe there is a parallel evolution, that two folks can create two tools that are very similar to each other but have nothing in common. They say great minds think alike right?

[AHB]

Did he just call Leathermans bulky..?   

So maybe there is a parallel evolution, that two folks can create two tools that are very similar to each other but have nothing in common.

Not gonna take any sides here, but what are the chances...?   

[jekostas]

Not gonna take any sides here, but what are the chances...?   

I actually don't think the idea of "parallel evolution" an unreasonable statement from either manufacturer.  Yes there's always room for individuality in the design and creation of these tools, but there's kind of a limited design space to begin with - the simplicity of the tool kind of limits one to working from proven basic designs because of necessities of torque, strength, etc.

[Gadget Guy]

Hey Justin, you're a liar!    Why can't you simply admit that you went to Peter's site and said "Hey, let's make something like that". I've read your other posts on other forums and I know that your lying. With that being said, your new designs look interesting and I hope you continue to make original products that people can enjoy. I will shut my mouth for good if you just admit that you went to Peter's site before you designed your original tool.

[jzmtl]

Did he just call Leathermans bulky..?   

So maybe there is a parallel evolution, that two folks can create two tools that are very similar to each other but have nothing in common.

Not gonna take any sides here, but what are the chances...?   

It has happened many times in biological evolution, so it's there.

[AHB]

Did he just call Leathermans bulky..?    

So maybe there is a parallel evolution, that two folks can create two tools that are very similar to each other but have nothing in common.

Not gonna take any sides here, but what are the chances...?  

It has happened many times in biological evolution, so it's there.

Maybe so, but if I was going to make a new pockettool, I would certainly make somekind of research to find out what the future customers needs..

[BigFatTon]

I think it's harsh to call him a liar.  There are only so many things you can do with a tool like this, so it makes sense that the tools would be similar.  The pockettoolx tools, by all accounts, are pretty fantastic tools, and the fact that I wouldn't have to get lucky in order to purchase one makes me not even care if it was copied or not.  The Atwood tools are beautiful and mostly functional, but if he isn't going to step up to mass production, then i'm glad someone is.

[jekostas]

Hey Justin, you're a liar!    Why can't you simply admit that you went to Peter's site and said "Hey, let's make something like that". I've read your other posts on other forums and I know that your lying.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Ronson-Alligator-Open-End-Wrench-Opener-Screwdriver-/350310354327?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51901fcd97

http://cgi.ebay.com/Keen-Kutter-No-50-Alligator-Wrench-/400094270464?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d277a1400

http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-VAUGHAN-BUSHNELL-TOOL-ALLIGATOR-WRENCH-VINTAGE-/140410273900?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20b11ac06c

The idea of an alligator/closed box wrench tool with multiple sizes is nothing new.  Heck, that Ronson has a prybar/screwdriver tip as well as a cap lifter on it as well.

[SlackOne]

They mention specifically being influenced by the old Hawkeye Wrench.  Several tools of that type and others can be found here.  Oddly enough, Peter Atwood himself references wrenches of this type as his inspiration to make his Crawdaddy tool, more or less the "daddy" of the Wingnut.

I sometimes think that people get the notion into their head that just because they're aware of something, that everyone else is as well.  I'm fairly sure that if you went to the average guy out there running CNC machines or doing sheet metal work and asked them what they thought of Peter Atwood, you'd get a blank stare in return.  People for-real can come up with identical ideas while not playing in the same sandbox.

[Mr. Whippy]

Ok, those are some simply AWESOME old tools.

I would love to work with some of those alligator wrenches with integrated dies in the center.  What an awesome idea.  Thanks for that link. 

[Gadget Guy]

I think it's harsh to call him a liar.  There are only so many things you can do with a tool like this, so it makes sense that the tools would be similar.  The pockettoolx tools, by all accounts, are pretty fantastic tools, and the fact that I wouldn't have to get lucky in order to purchase one makes me not even care if it was copied or not.  The Atwood tools are beautiful and mostly functional, but if he isn't going to step up to mass production, then i'm glad someone is.

Just because you can't get an Atwood tool doesn't mean it's ok to copy his designs. BTW, I called him (Justin) a liar because he is a liar. I have no time to sit and call people names. He lied and he knows it. Doesn't seem to matter, people are going to buy what they're going to buy and there is nothing I can do about it except stand up for what I feel is right...

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

OK let's keep this civil please gentleman.

[Gadget Guy]

OK let's keep this civil please gentleman.

Sure Mike, sorry...

[BigFatTon]

I think it's harsh to call him a liar.  There are only so many things you can do with a tool like this, so it makes sense that the tools would be similar.  The pockettoolx tools, by all accounts, are pretty fantastic tools, and the fact that I wouldn't have to get lucky in order to purchase one makes me not even care if it was copied or not.  The Atwood tools are beautiful and mostly functional, but if he isn't going to step up to mass production, then i'm glad someone is.

Just because you can't get an Atwood tool doesn't mean it's ok to copy his designs. BTW, I called him (Justin) a liar because he is a liar. I have no time to sit and call people names. He lied and he knows it. Doesn't seem to matter, people are going to buy what they're going to buy and there is nothing I can do about it except stand up for what I feel is right...

You called him a liar because you think he is a liar, you have no proof he is one, so how about you act like an adult and stop with the baseless accusations

[Benner]

Could have sworn Mike said to keep this civil?

[Gadget Guy]

I think it's harsh to call him a liar.  There are only so many things you can do with a tool like this, so it makes sense that the tools would be similar.  The pockettoolx tools, by all accounts, are pretty fantastic tools, and the fact that I wouldn't have to get lucky in order to purchase one makes me not even care if it was copied or not.  The Atwood tools are beautiful and mostly functional, but if he isn't going to step up to mass production, then i'm glad someone is.

Just because you can't get an Atwood tool doesn't mean it's ok to copy his designs. BTW, I called him (Justin) a liar because he is a liar. I have no time to sit and call people names. He lied and he knows it. Doesn't seem to matter, people are going to buy what they're going to buy and there is nothing I can do about it except stand up for what I feel is right...

You called him a liar because you think he is a liar, you have no proof he is one, so how about you act like an adult and stop with the baseless accusations

I have proof but I just keep it to myself. I think Mike has spoken here.  

[Gadget Guy]

Sorry Ben, I was posting at the same time as you. 

[Benner]

No worries. 

[BigFatTon]

Well I think it's perfectly civil to expect someone to provide proof if they're calling them a liar.  So until you provide said proof, I think it fair to ask you to calm down with the name calling.

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

OK let's just leave it there please, or the next vaguely negative comment get's the thread locked.

[Gadget Guy]

Well I think it's perfectly civil to expect someone to provide proof if they're calling them a liar.  So until you provide said proof, I think it fair to ask you to calm down with the name calling.

Fair enough...   

[John]

Why can't we just decide who from and what we purchase is a individual decision and leave the copy right laws to those qualified,just a thought   

[Mr. Whippy]

OK let's just leave it there please, or the next vaguely negative comment get's the thread locked.

Electron.


 

[Grant Lamontagne]

Trying to get back to the topic, I have no comment on Justin or his product since I haven't held either his or Peter's.  What I will say is that parallel evolution is indeed a possibility, and while I can't intelligently comment on it in this case one way or the other, I can say with absolute certainty that there is a limit to it.  While there is the chance that these tools were developed the same way to fill a similar need, it's rare to see that kind of thing continue on for any length of time.  I'd like to see what PocketToolX and Peter Atwood are likely to come up with after this- if there are continuing similarities (as close as these are) then we know someone is full of the brown smelly stuff.  If they diverge, then someone could still be full of brown stuff, but had the sense to take the idea and run rather than continue to copy others.  If that's the case, then future tools are likely to be flawed, since the copycat is unable to intelligently build on a concept that they didn't develop initially.  Or, it could simply be that these similar tools were legitimately similar.  Really, only time will tell.

In the meantime, regardless of originality, Multitool.org has a responsibility to provide unbiased reviews on the functionality of each tool.  If it works, it works no matter how it came to be.  If it doesn't work, well then it doesn't matter how inspired it was.

Def

[diabolicturtle]

I think i believe them, I remember my grandpa had a few alligator wrenches that cut out int the handles that fit like box ends, so i know the idea is defiantly not the most original, but i think we'll have to see what comes of this,  honestly I had never heard of peter atwood until a few months ago, when I was looking for a small wrench, I actually found out about the pocket wrench II and piranha before any of peter atwoods designs, so i think that they really could have designed it beginning to end without even knowing that he existed.

[Gadget Guy]

I think i believe them, I remember my grandpa had a few alligator wrenches that cut out int the handles that fit like box ends, so i know the idea is defiantly not the most original, but i think we'll have to see what comes of this,  honestly I had never heard of peter atwood until a few months ago, when I was looking for a small wrench, I actually found out about the pocket wrench II and piranha before any of peter atwoods designs, so i think that they really could have designed it beginning to end without even knowing that he existed.

I'm not going to post pictures because I don't want to beat a dead horse, but my real problem in the Piranha design is with the bottle opener. The Piranha uses the exact same bottle open as Peter Atwood (Atwrench) and if you look at the Atwrench you can clearly see that the Piranha tool's bottle opener was no accident, IMO... 

Like I said before, buy what you like as I can't stop you anyway.