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Poll

Do you consider a SAK to be a multitool?

Yes, a SAK is a type of Multitool
12 (66.7%)
No, a SAK is not a Multitool.
6 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted 18

Voting closed: October 12, 2006, 01:24:25 AM

One of the great debates of all times 7337

Global Moderator Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here... Posts: 47,194
Re: One of the great debates of all times
« Reply #90 on: June 14, 2020, 11:38:29 PM »
Following your logic a Leatherman should be called Leathermultitool and only be used on Leather items...  ::)

Not sure how you get that   :think:

Leatherman is named after Tim Leatherman 

 ::)  back at you   :rofl:



No Life Club Posts: 4,629
Re: One of the great debates of all times
« Reply #91 on: June 14, 2020, 11:46:08 PM »
Not sure how you get that   :think:

Leatherman is named after Tim Leatherman 

 ::)  back at you   :rofl:

 ::) Maybe keep thinking..
Global Moderator Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here... Posts: 47,194
Re: One of the great debates of all times
« Reply #92 on: June 15, 2020, 01:10:32 AM »
No Life Club Posts: 4,629
Re: One of the great debates of all times
« Reply #93 on: June 15, 2020, 01:56:47 AM »
Didn't think so. My post was intentionally ridiculous to show the flawed logic in your comment. Just because a product is called "Swiss Army Knife" doesn't mean it can't be a multi tool and has to be a knife. The same way a product that is named "Leatherman" doesn't have to be a guy working with leather or a tool that is only made for leather working.

But it is ok. It is not the first time I see you commenting in a dismissive way in topics that are related to Victorinox products or the people that use them. From now on I will just ignore them.  :hatsoff:

Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,163
Re: One of the great debates of all times
« Reply #94 on: June 15, 2020, 03:02:16 AM »
Leatherman is a brand name, as are Gerber, SOG, Victorinox and Wenger.

"Swiss Army Knife" is a type of tool, not a brand name.

No Life Club Posts: 1,500
Re: One of the great debates of all times
« Reply #95 on: June 15, 2020, 03:36:25 AM »
Wikipedia lists SAKs on their multi-tool page. 
Their categories are Pocketknife, Folding (balisong style) and, other. 

I actually think that's a good way to classify them -

the first type in the form of a pocketknife- with multiple tools

the second type is in the form of a balisong - with multiple tools.  The central tool is often pliers in this case, but is sometimes scissors

the third includes hammers with additional tools and all the rest. 

So for the second type of multitool - one can mentally remove the focus from the pliers as a basis.... also (as I had previously argued) one can mentally remove focus from the plier handles... instead if one considers it simply in the form of a balisong, then the leathermans, the SOGs the Gerbers the Micras, the Splices.... all qualify.  Yes a Gerber doesnt open like a balisong perhaps the shape still qualifies it as such. 
Global Moderator No Life Club Posts: 3,178
Re: One of the great debates of all times
« Reply #96 on: June 15, 2020, 04:38:55 AM »
Yeah - Not bad EB - Thanks

Key misconception around the place, for me, is that a multitool must have pliers - Which of course it does not have to - Nor a knife for that matter - Eg bladeless (multi)tools

So that classification - Which guess focuses on the physical and opening aspects - works quite well

And the SAK is clearly in the pocket knife category of MTs.
Global Moderator Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here... Posts: 47,194
Re: One of the great debates of all times
« Reply #97 on: June 15, 2020, 05:58:24 AM »
Didn't think so. My post was intentionally ridiculous to show the flawed logic in your comment. Just because a product is called "Swiss Army Knife" doesn't mean it can't be a multi tool and has to be a knife. The same way a product that is named "Leatherman" doesn't have to be a guy working with leather or a tool that is only made for leather working.

But it is ok. It is not the first time I see you commenting in a dismissive way in topics that are related to Victorinox products or the people that use them. From now on I will just ignore them.  :hatsoff:

Okay Sir Vic that sounds like a good plan .


After this post:

:like: can't disagree!
Also agreed!
To take it to the extreme, imagine an XAVT with no blades....
(Image removed from quote.)
It would still be thicker than a swisschamp, and I dare anyone to call it not-a-SAK  :D


I merely suggested that a  SAK with no blades and all tools should be called a SAMT.     :cheers:
No Life Club Posts: 4,261
One of the great debates of all times
« Reply #98 on: June 15, 2020, 06:36:10 AM »
In reality I think this is one of those interesting debates that will never have a right answer. 

Although to insert my $.02, I would have to lean on a SAK being more a knife than it being a multitool.  I base this off the fact that camp or scout knife, with the same basic toolset as some SAKs, is considered a knife.  An electricians knife, a sailors knife, etc all have tools, but are all considered knives. 

Or maybe tango44 is on to something when he said
A SAK is the mother of all multitiools!
Enough said!
 :like:

And the plier based multitools are the father.
No Life Club Posts: 4,520 Apparently it is possible to have too many tools;)
Re: One of the great debates of all times
« Reply #99 on: June 15, 2020, 01:09:17 PM »
In reality I think this is one of those interesting debates that will never have a right answer. 

Sometimes there is no single "right" answer, and looking for one is where the trouble occurs.

A frequent problem is that some people firmly believe that their personal OPINION is somehow "the" correct and only fact  - spoiler alert, opinions are often not actual facts.

Then when they try to claim their opinion is an objective "truth", but someone else holds a quite different opinion, then there can be a clash as both parties seem to forget that they are trying to enforce their opinion on someone else. Sometimes on-line discussions can get quite heated due to the limited bandwith and time delays, whereas a similar discussion held face to face could be rather more civil.

ETTO and all that - have a look at the quote in my signature block ....

babola: "Enjoy your tools and don't be afraid to air your opinion and feelings here, but do it in courteous and respectable way toward others, of course."
No Life Club Posts: 1,500
Re: One of the great debates of all times
« Reply #100 on: June 15, 2020, 02:43:07 PM »
Sometimes there is no single "right" answer, and looking for one is where the trouble occurs.

A frequent problem is that some people firmly believe that their personal OPINION is somehow "the" correct and only fact  - spoiler alert, opinions are often not actual facts.

Then when they try to claim their opinion is an objective "truth", but someone else holds a quite different opinion, then there can be a clash as both parties seem to forget that they are trying to enforce their opinion on someone else. Sometimes on-line discussions can get quite heated due to the limited bandwith and time delays, whereas a similar discussion held face to face could be rather more civil.

ETTO and all that - have a look at the quote in my signature block ....

I would have to respectfully disagree here.

I would submit that this is absolutely not matter of opinion. and that there is objective truth. 

What we're discussing here is a matter of taxonomy.  There are rules for taxonomy - In the case of living creatures...  every living organism fits within it.  Everything from dogs, to birds, to oak trees, to humans.
The taxonomy goes Kingdom -> Phylum -> Class -> Order -> Family -> Genus -> Species.   We're all familiar with Genus and Species in usual converations. 

We're talking about a taxonomy of tools. and the designation "Multitool" falls somewhere in the middle.  Somewhere between "(Hand)Tools" and "slipjoint pocketknife".

Based on the rules of increasing specificity, I suspect that SAK would have to fall below Multitool.. because the equivalent line on the same level (perhaps Order or Family) would have to be  "Dedicated tool".  a SAK would have to fall under Multitool, and then below that subclassified into a Pocketknife or a Knife based MT, or whatever we agree on.

This is objective and not a matter of opinion, (though the underlying condition is that the rules are agreed upon).

Bell pepper is a fruit, Eggplant is a fruit,  This is a fact,  It's not a matter of opinion... even though some people believe that pepper is a vegetable and use it as such.

Now, you can make your friends very angry if you put bell pepper and eggplant in their fruit salad.  So there's objectivity, and there's pragmatism, but there is no place for personal opinion in deciding upon taxonomy. 

So back to SAKs.  They must be classified as a multitool, because they can not be classified anywhere else.  Unless anyone can come up with a taxonomy where it would fit somewhere else, and that would encompass every tool out there.  (and Other is not an acceptable category)

Now one may hold the opinion that a SAK is not a good Multitool, or that bell pepper is a terrible fruit. Thats an opinion that anyone can have. But objective things are either true or not.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 03:03:51 PM by ElevenBlade »
Global Moderator Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here... Posts: 47,194
Re: One of the great debates of all times
« Reply #101 on: June 15, 2020, 03:13:08 PM »
Since the only knives the Swiss Army have used and  been issued have been the various Soldier models, should all the other models be classified and called something else ?    :think:

Swiss Multitool knife perhaps     SMK's  :dunno:

And BTW I agree that SAK's are Multitools.
No Life Club Posts: 4,520 Apparently it is possible to have too many tools;)
Re: One of the great debates of all times
« Reply #102 on: June 15, 2020, 06:50:29 PM »
I would have to respectfully disagree here.
...... (though the underlying condition is that the rules are agreed upon).

And I must respectfully disagree with your opinion.   :pok:  But I am enjoying the discussion, so have at it .... :tu:

AFAIK the rules for this particular discussion have NOT been agreed on, so until then this discussion can never be resolved to a single "objective" truth (and I have my doubts even if it were possible to agree on a set of comprehensive rules - see below). 

From what I've seen so far, I'm not going to hold my breath while I wait for a harmonious consensus on "the rules for classifying SAKs & MultiTools" to appear.

If I look closely at your example of the taxonomy of living creatures, I see that some areas are frequently subject to endless "discussions" between the lumpers and the splitters, so there is no single, objective, "truth", merely a (temporary ? ) consensus amongst the currently most influential classifiers (in other words, they all hold the same opinion about something and have agreed to accept it - for the time being at least). 

Also the objective "truth" of a particular classification or group of classifications is often subject to quite a radical revision as new information becomes available (eg previously unknown DNA links), so even with general agreement there is no immutable, fixed-for-life, objective "truth" in any particular taxanomic classification.

For me an objective "truth" is something much less disputable, perhaps something like:
"When I compare lead with water, lead has always appeared to be more dense, but having said that I make no claims about anyone else's experiences"
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 07:03:53 PM by gregozedobe »

babola: "Enjoy your tools and don't be afraid to air your opinion and feelings here, but do it in courteous and respectable way toward others, of course."
No Life Club Posts: 1,500
Re: One of the great debates of all times
« Reply #103 on: June 15, 2020, 09:33:45 PM »
And I must respectfully disagree with your opinion.   :pok:  But I am enjoying the discussion, so have at it .... :tu:

AFAIK the rules for this particular discussion have NOT been agreed on, so until then this discussion can never be resolved to a single "objective" truth (and I have my doubts even if it were possible to agree on a set of comprehensive rules - see below). 

From what I've seen so far, I'm not going to hold my breath while I wait for a harmonious consensus on "the rules for classifying SAKs & MultiTools" to appear.

If I look closely at your example of the taxonomy of living creatures, I see that some areas are frequently subject to endless "discussions" between the lumpers and the splitters, so there is no single, objective, "truth", merely a (temporary ? ) consensus amongst the currently most influential classifiers (in other words, they all hold the same opinion about something and have agreed to accept it - for the time being at least). 

Also the objective "truth" of a particular classification or group of classifications is often subject to quite a radical revision as new information becomes available (eg previously unknown DNA links), so even with general agreement there is no immutable, fixed-for-life, objective "truth" in any particular taxanomic classification.

For me an objective "truth" is something much less disputable, perhaps something like:
"When I compare lead with water, lead has always appeared to be more dense, but having said that I make no claims about anyone else's experiences"

 :cheers:

Your first point is valid - the rules have not been agreed upon.  Though in looking at the various rules that have been offered, it seems that everyone's falls short (myself included without question).  Therefore the rules would have to be even more general than what any of us has considered.  In the interim I had tried to come up with weighted criteria - wherein something needs a few major criteria, and/or several minor criteria to qualify.  That too didn't address all cases when I put it to scrutiny.

This is what made me think of the multi-level taxonomy, rather than a list of criteria. The way we classify things in nature - living things, stars, planets, rocks. have different classifications, and we are able to do so with pretty good agreement.  Yes, scientists absolutely disagree with taxonomy - but when you get down to expert level the devil is in the details.  Taxonomy is "good enough" to be useful in science to the undergrad level, and even your average biologist can function within this classification in as much as it is useful to them. 

More strikingly, You can do hard-core chemistry without ever questioning if the atoms you're manipulating actually exist - or if atoms are just a mathematical model that we know how to manipulate "on paper" based on rules so that we can combine whatever chemicals to the endpoint that we want.  Expert particle physicists may tell you that atoms dont exist, that the atom is just a mathematical construct that explains why things happen as they do. In other words - is a Multitool an actual object, or is it an idea of or type of an object?  Again, we don't need to agree on that, as scientists don't agree if an atom is a mathematical model or a particle but they all do what they need to do with whatever atom they are working with.    What you're getting at is Scientific Realism, and what I would argue is we can get "good enough" without achieving "Truth" with a capital T when it comes to classifying multitools.   

The next thing that you are getting at is expert opinion, where we could employ the Delphi Method.  To that, I would submit that none of us are qualified for that, even though we are far more qualified than someone who doesn't frequent this site.  Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like there are too many of us that know similar things for this to be effective. 

So getting back to the topic at hand.  Even though we will be unable to come up with a classification that will stand the test of time (just as Technium may have become the 7th Kingdom of life-forms), I would argue that we can come up with a good-enough classification.  But for that to happen, it would have to be reasonably complex. And in the case of SAKs and Multitools, I can't envision how Multitools would be anywhere but as a larger set above the level of SAK.  To say a SAK is a type of pocketknife... then the definition of pocketknife would have to be so broad as to have to include some bicycle or guitar repair tools.  To me, that classification just seems .... misplaced. 

« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 09:43:10 PM by ElevenBlade »
Global Moderator No Life Club Posts: 3,178
Re: One of the great debates of all times
« Reply #104 on: June 16, 2020, 02:11:16 AM »
Oh this is fun and illuminating!!

And well done for keeping it informed and civil my MT.o friends

Do you think Oxford University would accept me for a Ph.D in Multitool Classification and Taxonomy - I guess I could throw in a little MT History - to make it a bit more worthwhile!   :pok:    :D
No Life Club Posts: 1,500
Re: One of the great debates of all times
« Reply #105 on: June 16, 2020, 02:30:11 AM »
Oh this is fun and illuminating!!

And well done for keeping it informed and civil my MT.o friends

Do you think Oxford University would accept me for a Ph.D in Multitool Classification and Taxonomy - I guess I could throw in a little MT History - to make it a bit more worthwhile!   :pok:    :D

The universities in the UK have the absolute best degree programs.  Or programmes ...   :think:  You can get your Multitool classification Ph.D., whilst I get my Whiskey Ph.D.... Or Whisky if I'm in Scotland...  as it were. 

 :cheers:
No Life Club Posts: 1,500
Re: One of the great debates of all times
« Reply #106 on: June 16, 2020, 02:35:55 AM »
(double posted... sorry)

Nothing to see here... move right along... thank you...
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,163
Re: One of the great debates of all times
« Reply #107 on: June 16, 2020, 03:59:30 AM »
Bell pepper is a fruit, Eggplant is a fruit,  This is a fact,  It's not a matter of opinion... even though some people believe that pepper is a vegetable and use it as such.
If you want to talk about taxonomy, Peppers are neither - they're a Berry:pok:
As are tomatoes, pumpkins, bananas... (Raspberries and strawberries are not berries, they are aggregate fruits)
Whether something is referred to as a fruit or berry often has little in common with it's botanical classification.

No Life Club Posts: 1,500
Re: One of the great debates of all times
« Reply #108 on: June 16, 2020, 04:35:04 AM »
If you want to talk about taxonomy, Peppers are neither - they're a Berry:pok:
As are tomatoes, pumpkins, bananas... (Raspberries and strawberries are not berries, they are aggregate fruits)
Whether something is referred to as a fruit or berry often has little in common with it's botanical classification.

 :think: I'm just pointing out that while I am of the OPINION that peppers are a delicious vegetable because they go well with onions and sausages, the facts state otherwise.  That my opinion that they are a delicious anything... ends right there with the word "delicious"

Similarly, if my opinion is that a SAK is an excellent multitool, it ends with the word excellent.  What we are discussing is the validity of the purported "fact" thereafter.
No Life Club Posts: 4,520 Apparently it is possible to have too many tools;)
Re: One of the great debates of all times
« Reply #109 on: June 16, 2020, 04:44:12 PM »
What we are discussing is the validity of the purported "fact" thereafter.

And what an amusing, fun discussion it has been.   :cheers:

I keep thinking of the following quote :

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

Just because we can't get total 100% consensus doesn't mean that most of the time most of us have a (mostly) shared consensus when we talk about a SAK.   But I'm not going to even try to expand that concept of consensus to include MultiTools ....   :pok:   :rofl:
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 04:51:35 PM by gregozedobe »

babola: "Enjoy your tools and don't be afraid to air your opinion and feelings here, but do it in courteous and respectable way toward others, of course."
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,163
Re: One of the great debates of all times
« Reply #110 on: June 17, 2020, 12:16:16 AM »
A classification is not a fact; it is a label we apply to something in a way that makes the most sense.
To me that makes it more of an opinion, although I don't think all opinions have equal value.

No Life Club Posts: 1,500
Re: One of the great debates of all times
« Reply #111 on: June 17, 2020, 12:31:59 AM »
A classification is not a fact; it is a label we apply to something in a way that makes the most sense.
To me that makes it more of an opinion, although I don't think all opinions have equal value.

I fully agree with that opinion. 
There's an interesting essay written by Tom Nichols called "The Death of Expertise"


 

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