Imported Slip joints

[sappyg]

lastly; a trapper. i got this one to see what all the buzz is about. i've never had a trapper and they seem so popular. well, the price was right.







the RR only confirmed for me that the trapper pattern (at least for me) is only a passing fansy... fasionable and nothing more but, oh what a tart i am for RRs sawcut bone scales. it has the same kind of yellowie tint to the superbly done scalloped bolsters (though not my taste). the blades are very well centered and this kind of western build/ labor could easily add 8-10 times the price paid for this RR.
my issue here is not with the manufactured product as much as it is with this very trendy pattern. it's way too big and heavey at 4 1/4" and not nearly as useful as say a kershaw skyline. the long pull does magnify the poor nail nick on the clip blade which could easily do w/o the matchstrike for a better purchase. the blades (especially the clip) tend to be too light and springy much like the congress. when closing you feel a 'sproing' that's not entirely from the springs. i do not care for the trapper pattern. RR allowed me to confirm this for a fraction of the cost from a high profile maker.   

[Sean]

I'm looking at the backspring of that whittler (3rd) photo and it looks to me like it's cracked?  What
am I not seeing quite right here? 

[Neil]

That design uses a split backspring.  Its meant to look like that

[Sean]

Interesting, I never knew or heard of that, thanks.

[2xTap]

sappyg,

Nice grabs bud. The RR's are great for what they are, ain't they? And as you mentioned they gave you an opportunity to try out a classic pattern (in this case the fullsize Trapper which happens to be the most collected slipjoint pattern out there) to see if you like it for very little money.

And I am with you on the Sawcut Bone, I too like it alot but could do without the fancy bolsters. The only one of that series I have is their large Stockman........



......I am partial to the larger patterns.

Sean,

As Neil mentioned it is a Splitback Whittler. The design has been around a long time, a very oldschool way of doing things. And much more expensive to do as well.

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[Sean]

Thanks again for the clarification.  Can anyone take a pic of the split backspring up close?  Why do
they do that?  I find it all a bit interesting. 

[jzmtl]

Are we talking about the same thing? I thought Sean was talking about the right side spring have a black line in the middle?

[sappyg]

(in this case the fullsize Trapper which happens to be the most collected slipjoint pattern out there) to see if you like it for very little money.
2xTap

hey tap,

why is it that the trapper is so popular with collectors? i really don't get the pattern personally. i think it's pretty but not near EDC standards IMO. functionally it's great if you're a trapper but most collectors aren't trappers. you'll get a lot less gunk on you during use on smaller critters but i don't see the intrigue for a collector. i do think the pattern can show off what the maker is capable of to certain degree. i'm not a collector but an accumilator i spose.
on an aside: i have seen 'whitlers' by respected companies that are as far removed from what a whitler is that they can't even be called stockman.

      

[sappyg]

Are we talking about the same thing? I thought Sean was talking about the right side spring have a black line in the middle?

i've gotta learn to clean and clean again before i take a pic.... that was some dirt of some kind from my pocket. i swear it was not there when i snapped. the black thing is not a part of the whitler from RR. in fact, the build and finish is comendable.

sorry sean,
my camera can only do so much. that's as close as i can get.
a true whitler has a split spring that a lot of makers can't get or cheat by making two bigger springs that can handle the load but will develope side to side blade play under the lightest use in my experience.
 

[2xTap]

(in this case the fullsize Trapper which happens to be the most collected slipjoint pattern out there) to see if you like it for very little money.
2xTap

hey tap,

why is it that the trapper is so popular with collectors? i really don't get the pattern personally. i think it's pretty but not near EDC standards IMO. functionally it's great if you're a trapper but most collectors aren't trappers. you'll get a lot less gunk on you during use on smaller critters but i don't see the intrigue for a collector. i do think the pattern can show off what the maker is capable of to certain degree. i'm not a collector but an accumilator i spose.
on an aside: i have seen 'whitlers' by respected companies that are as far removed from what a whitler is that they can't even be called stockman.

sappyg,

First thing to take into account is depite what a particular pattern was meant to do or who it was originally designed for, just throw that out of the equation. Slipjoints have been around for a few Centuries now, and your most popular styles now are designs based off of oldschool English designs or Classic American patterns. Many of which have been found to work quite well in all manner of work.

That said, and this applies quite well to the Trapper pattern, simple is best. In it's many forms it is a workhorse of pattern and one that nearly every maker of slipjoints has produced or still is producing. You look at every big name slipjoint maker out there now, every brand.....Case, Hen & Rooster, Boker, Henckels, Bulldog, Weidmannsheil, Eye Brand, Queen, Schatt & Morgan, Robeson, Great Eastern, Northfield, Tidioute, Colonel Coon, Steel Warrior, Schrade, Camillus, Bear & Son, Buck, Remington, Winchester, Canal Street, Rough Rider, Kissing Crane, Ulster, Colt, MooreMaker, Fightin' Rooster, Indian Head, Owl Head, etc., etc. Not all of these brands have Clasp Knives, or Sodbusters, or Swayback Jacks, or Canittlers, or Grandaddy Barlows, or Tear Drop Jacks, or Toothpicks.......but they all have Trappers in one form or another.

Add to that most companies when they produce Anniversary models, Commemoratives, and Special Editions they are often done in the Trapper pattern. On top of that it generally is, in the standard 4 1/8" size version, one of the least expensive patterns. All of this adds up to a top selling pattern for many companies. And it's been doing so for many years.

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[Sean]

Are we talking about the same thing? I thought Sean was talking about the right side spring have a black line in the middle?

Thanks Jz, I was looking at that trying to figure out why it looked like a broken backspring trying to make
sense of it. 

Sappy, no problem, thanks for the clarification, it happens.

[sappyg]

point taken...
just wondering why as i am looking for the best (all around) slipjoint for my personal use. collections (accumilations) are loosely based on this among other things.
i grew up around farmers and mill workers and to the man jacks and stockmen were king. goofing around with knives as i do i realize now that these choices were based on use and need though they had several prized folders amongst them yet non were trappers. i've seen many things done with a well made slipjoint but never with such a BIG thing as the trapper.
i think trappers have a trendy look that is easy to make and make look good. at 4 1/4" nobody will seriously carry or use one on a daily basis.... it's just too big but, it offers plenty on room to show off scales and sheild treatment while giving the illusion of utility. ultimately i think there is a trend among makers to make their slips larger than needed. try to find a good 3 1/2" stockman anywhere. oh they are around... case's 63032CV and eye brand's 350 series but that's about it (i left out boker) but the marque names are running to 3 7/8" and 4 1/4". not from working need but for the sake of showcase IMO.
that said... if you know of someone making a good 3 1/2" jack please let me know.

   
        

[2xTap]

sappyg,

It's all in who you know and works for who. Lots of Trapper users out there. And take into account the fact that the Trapper comes in many sizes. The one you have is a standard Trapper at 4 1/8". Trappers come much smaller in the Mini-Trapper, Tiny Trapper, and Baby Trapper sizes. And then their is the King of Trappers, the Jumbo Trapper. A staple of the Remington lines as well as original Camillus. And now made in quantity through Bear & Son and the signature pattern for Great Eastern Cutlery which has brought the pattern back with a vengence. These are 4 1/2" closed and much broader in the frame than the standard Trapper. Add to that the Mountain Man from Queen Cutlery.......a hugely popular pattern for them which is essentially a single blade Jumbo Trapper in both slipjoint and lockback styles.

And as far as serious carry, I know of many who carry large framed slippies. Large Stockman, Jumbo Trappers, Mountain Mans, Folding Hunters, and in my case I EDC regularly a Case Gunboat Canoe..........



..........these are 4 1/4" closed and noticably heavier, thicker, and broader than a standard Trapper. It is one of the few slipjoints that fits my hand extremely well in use regardless of which blade I have open.

As to trends in the slipjoint market, funny thing is happening and has for the past few years......smaller patterns are the rage now. Tiny Toothpicks, Peanuts, Muskrats, and Canoes are the favorites now. And while they haven't surpassed the standard Trapper as the all time collectable they are gaining serious ground.

Now I'd like to add something that is going to confuse you. Jack Knives! A Trapper is a Jack Knife. A Peanut is a Jack Knife. A Barlow is a Jack Knife. A Folding Hunter is a Jack Knife. Pretty much any slipjoint with either a single blade or two blades on one end is essentially a Jack Knife. The term Jack Knife at one time was used to describe pretty much every slipjoint out there. The term is derived from the man believed to have created the first slipjoint knife, Jacque de Liege. Anyway, the term eventually generalized down to any slippie with one or two blades on one end of the knife. This terminology has carried over to pattern names such as Teardrop Jack, Texas Jack, Swayback Jack, Barehead Jack, and the like.

That said, for Jack Knives there are many high quality pieces out there. The question is what exactly are you looking for......a Jack more along the lines of a Barlow style, or something different? Is 3 1/2" you specific size range or will you go 3 5/8" or 3 3/4", or how about 3" even? Do you want one or two blades?

2xTap

[sappyg]

an exceptional and informative response 2xTap.

the jack that just came in yesterday. i like it a lot but at 3 1/8" it's a wee bit small for my liking but still very usefull i must say. if thing thing came in at 3 1/2- 3 3/4" it would be just right.



to me there seems to be a void of sorts when it comes to slipjoint sizes. i look at so many knives and think 'boy... if that came in around 3 1/2" i'd be all over it'. queen has a real nice looking jack in burnt amber stag bone that is the bomb but 3 1/4" only. no other sizes in that pattern. i've seen the mini trapper and the size is right but could do w/o the spey in lieu of a nice pen blade. in most cases the jump is from 3 1/4" straight to 3 7/8".
ATM i'm leaning toward the case 62032 CV jack (not sure if you call it a texas jack b/c there is a bigger one still).
i have noticed an equal trend towards warncliff blades as well as the peanut size gaining popularity. the little swayback is a good example. actually the warncliff at all that bad. everything has it's place.
sorry for the rant earlier. i'm sure lots of people are using these full size trappers. it's never been common in my area and the size is rather overwhelming to me. i really wanted to like it. do people carry theirs in a belt holster or some kind of pocket slip like your gunboat? when i put the trapper in my pocket i look.... well.... a little happy.

 

 

[2xTap]

sappyg,

Nice Swayback Jack, they are a neat pattern.

As to recommendations, might I suggest the Queen version of the Gunstock. It is a Jack Knife.....



........they are 3 5/8" closed and a pattern I have grown to like. I own quite a few of these. If you want to get an idea of what the pattern is like without jumping into Queen right away, Rough Rider makes a version with a Spearpoint blade. Their frame design is virtually identical to the Queens but at 3 1/2" closed. Here's a few I have........



Another nice one is the Swayback Jack from Kissing Crane (more of a Humpback really), these are really nice........



.......they are 3 3/4" closed and are of real nice build, if mine is any example. They come in Red Bone, Autumn Bone, Stag, and Yellow delrin. And can be had for a sub-$20 price. The #032 pattern from Case that you mentioned is another good one.

Also take a look at the #69 pattern from Queen Cutlery.........



...........in ACSB and at 3 1/2" closed these might work for you as well.

And also take a look at Schatt & Morgan, their smaller Coke Bottle Jack at 3 1/2" as well......



It's also offered in with a Spearpoint in smooth Harvest Bone..........



There is more but here's a few for you to look at that might help.

Now, as to carrying the bigger patterns there are many options. There are leather belt sheaths available for the bigger patterns, Case makes one specifically for the Trapper. Seems common for those who carry bigger patterns like Trappers and Folding Hunters to carry in the back pocket. Funny I should mention that now that I think about it as Case has two new patterns coming out in November which are Tony Bose designed single blade Jumbo Trappers that are actually called "Back Pocket Knives"! Anyway, some do carry in the front pocket but like you mentioned even I had the occassional incident of my Gunboat Canoe sliding sideways in my front pocket, which did look odd. The Pocket-Slip I carry it in now solved that problem........and they have become quite popular. I know lots of guys toting their big'uns, and others, in this fashion.

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[sappyg]

sean changed his avatar again....  ....

@tap.... you have one hell of a collection... clearly arrived at through experience. i'm likin' the queen gunstocks in burnt amber stag bone a lot. i've had this gunstock for years and at one time i thought.... 'this is my pattern'



still, it's a bit verically challenged at 3 1/8" but very light and handy. i guess i never really liked the steel more than anything. a nice medium case stockman in CV came in with the swayback jack that i just can't keep out of my pocket.



now i've found my size slipjoint but maybe not my pattern... i don't know. that's a very sexy looking clipblade S&M cokebottle. i think i might try to track one down in carbon.

also, i have a chino/ remington 4" stockman i need to post here. i think it's even better than the RRs i've handled so far. 

[sappyg]

4" remington stockman. bought at a B&M for $9.00.... amazing...







this is a very stout and well built knife. you can see that the F&F is of the highest quality in the spine shot. over the years the bolsters have yellowed. the remington shield is of some type of plastic button and the pins are of brass. the steel is probably 440a and takes a wicked edge. believe it or not the walk and talk are excellent with equally strong springs and 1/2 stop.
IMO this chinese remington smokes the RR's i've handled. buildwise they are similar but of the RR's to date the blades seem to be on the thin side. you can consider that a US made remington will likely run you 10x's the price i paid for this chino and that was about ten years ago. yep.... chinese qualty was that good even then. my 73' case stockman is the only slipjoint that outshines this.     

[2xTap]

sappyg,

Nice little stockman, that red bone looks sweet as hell. Is it the #44 pattern from the newer CV run?

As to the Gunstocks, I never was a fan of the pattern having handled a few Case versions. The smaller Case version is too small for me and the larger versions just don't look right. As much of a Case fan as I am their Gunstock just never sold me. Their frame pattern seems too slender and too straight. Then I got my first Queen Gunstock pattern and was sold. A bit more girth to their design, fits the hand better. And the blades on the Queens are wider......real good looking pattern to me.

I have a asian-made Remington from the same line as your Stockman, mine a Scout pattern.......



...........mine was around $10.00 or so. It's real good overall for the price. F&F not quite up to the standard of my Rough Rider Scout Knives, it has some small gaps and a hazy polish on the mainblade. But not bad really. My RR Scouts also have noticably heavier backsprings compared this Remington, as well as Jigged Bone scales compared to the Rem's black Delrin (the RR's only costed about $2.00 more as well). But the Remington Sportsman line is a good deal for what you get and I've seen them go on sale for $5.00 or so for certain patterns, they can be had real cheap at times which makes them a real bargain.

2xTap

[sappyg]

hey 2xtap,

i'm thinking the case stockman is the new #44 (?) in chestnut... it is in CV and i am absolutely satisfied with it. the scales do not match perfectly but this is a user. it has a bit of pen and sheepfoot blade rub that you might not get from an RR due to the thickness of the blades. you can feel the difference when it's in your hand. it is superior to the RRs i've tried. i do have a few cases that the RRs beat out but these have been used considerably where as the RRs have seen only very limited use.
like you the case gunstock has lost it's luster. back in the day i carried it quite a bit but, it's just too small now. never could warm up to the true sharp steel either.
i found an S&M cokebottle today. i think the steel was either 420 HC which i don't know much about. i'm still likin' the queen GS also... just not completely sold on D2 yet. i'd rather have a nasty looking sharp 1095 blade than a shiny dull blade that's hard to get sharp.
actually, i'm so taken with the new medium stockman that i can honestly say i would never really need another slipjoint but, of course that will never happen. have you tried any of the new uticas from kutmaster? i'm digging the catskill series but so fair i've only heard of one person that has one. the price looks really good.
that's a nice looking scout. it reminds me of the old boyscout knives from back in the day.


 

[2xTap]

sappyg,

If you don't mind me asking, what is it about Case's "Tru-Sharp" steel you don't like?

As to 420HC Stainless that's in the Schatt & Morgan Coke Bottle, Case's Tru-Sharp is 420HC and it's the main steel used in many Buck Knives.....if you own a Buck 110, unless it's a special edition or SFO it's likely bladed in 420HC.

I haven't tried any of the new Utica's yet. The ones I want, at least the ones I prefer the look of, are bladed in 1095 Carbon Steel which I really dislike in slipjoints. But I will get some as soon as any of the dealers I use finally get some in. A couple patterns in the MooreMaker line are now being made by Utica, in Carbon Steel, and Mike over at CollectorKnives.net does carry these and he told me the quality on them was pretty good.

2xTap

[sappyg]

If you don't mind me asking, what is it about Case's "Tru-Sharp" steel you don't like?
2xTap

it probably has more to do with my poor sharpening skills as much as anything. of the several case tru-sharp knives i have it always seems that i can't get the edge where i think it should be. if i do get it there then it wants to dull on me way too quickly and the whole process starts all over again. maybe i would feel differently if the edge would hold better. too much work and it kinda puts me off of super steels. 
i like 1095/ carbon b/c it takes an edge well, holds that edge and touches up with very little hassle. also i carve and whittle a bit and all of my carving knives are carbon. i just don't want to spent the time with harder steels for the most part. sometimes time i think an edge just gets dirty as much as actually gets dull and stropping takes care of that right quick and you can get back to work. i probably strop as much as i actually whittle. 
this is why i really don't mind the 440a in these RR's. it takes a good quick edge, holds it and seems to touch up very quickly. i think quite a few makers use to use it and it really was'nt all that bad.

[2xTap]

sappyg,

Interesting. I've found Case's Tru-Sharp and RR's 440A to be about at the same level in regards to edge holding. They are both, 420HC and 440A, on the lower end of stainless blade steels. These are definitely not in the class of the super steels. But they work good for their intended purpose. Same with the 420HC used by Queen in some of the Robeson line and in the Schatt's. Buck's 420HC a bit better in the edge holding.

It might be your sharpening technique as Tru-Sharp isn't real hard. It's actually a pretty easy steel to sharpen up, with the right stones. I have found if you go too thin on the edge it will dull up quicker. On my Case knives I try to stay at about 20 to 25 degrees on the bevels. But I also don't whittle, the toughest material my slippies usually see is clamshell plastic and cardboard.

2xTap

[sappyg]

But I also don't whittle, the toughest material my slippies usually see is clamshell plastic and cardboard.

2xTap

i'm not a steel junky but i can honestly say that tru-sharp is not for me and my use. i can say that day in day out it really does'nt hold like i wish it would. i can see cardboard giving true sharp fits after minimum use. i know it.
TBH the 440a on the RR whittler is really hanging in there for me. it behaves very much like 1095 IMO and i'm happy with the way it's holding an edge while pushing through. if queen or case or anybody would offer knives in this steel i would buy it. actually that is exactly why i can't justify buying a queen especially after rockin' this little whittler again today. it's just so perky.
meh... sometimes i think factory propaganda is driving the desire for alternate super steels. kinda like golf clubs in a way... 'this driver will add 30 yards to your drives' blah blah blah... better to manage your game and know your potential than to rely on the market hype as a crutch... at least that's my take on it. your milage may vary. residence of florida add 8% sales tax.

[2xTap]

sappyg,

I have to say that while it does work for me in my daily cutting chores, Case's Tru-Sharp isn't the best edge holder. And even though I ain't a steel snob I do prefer higher end steels. It's one of the things I really like about GEC as they do produce knives in 440-C, though I wished they'd offer more patterns in it. Queen, aside from their mainstays in D2 and other runs in 1095 has offered certain runs of Schatt's and Robesons in ATS-34 which I really like, and the prices are reasonable. Case has done some runs of knives in 154CM which is another favorite blade steel of mine, but they are generally a bit pricier.

If you are interested in 440A in slippies look at the stainless runs from Hen & Rooster. They use 440A as well. Although I can't say for sure how good the heat treat is as I do own some but have never used them.

2xTap