Why the hostility toward self-defense?

[Fisting_Chili]

Thank you for your logical post.  So, home SD is covered, but what about when you are out and about.  I know if I'm by myself I would be more willing to fight off the attacker, but if I had my family with me and all he wanted is my wallet...then the wallet he gets.  However, if he wants to get physical then I'm willing to do that as well, at least till my family has run for cover and safety.  We do have a safety plan as well, Marie gets the baby and runs to the car while I fend off the attacker, and she dials 911.  People think I am wacko, but she appreciates it especially from her not so great upbringing.

We have a similar plan also, but with one add on.   The Mrs, once at a safe distance, is to begin kicking the tires of every car in sight, hard.  I had a friend who did this years back when she was being harassed and she managed to set off 3 car alarms and scared the guys off.

[specgrade]

 I will protect my family and myself and think about the consequences later. I'll use a bat, knife, gun, hands, head, drink, food, spit, rocks, dirt, and of course a multi-tool, etc. to achieve the desired results. The most deadliest weapon known to man is the human brain, without it nothing is possible.

[Fisting_Chili]

Jekostas, I totally agree with you.

I like to carry knives, but in what few self-defense situations I've been in I've only drawn once (and only as a scare tactic). I have very little training in knife combat and I would not trust myself with it in that situation. Everytime I get a new EDC blade I practice drawing it out of pocket and deploying it in various physical conditions. It's definitely not something I would attempt under stress, when I've almost impaled my foot in the comfort of my own room.

And all the idiots (there's a lot of them - I know a lot of them) out there parading around with little to no training and a combat-oriented knife, I fear and fear for.

I'm like you FF.  I like carrying knives even if I don't have all the training.  I have my Gung Fu weapon sets training from way back that included knives, but I can't honestly say that is even a viable claim anymore because it has been so many years since I've studied.  Still, I'm of the philosophy that, "I'd rather have it and not need it, then need it and not have it."  I tell ya what....when the wife and I were walking our two little Lhasa Apso dogs and those two coyotes came out of the bushes about 75 yards in front of us and slowly started walking our way, with intent, I felt a lot better covering my wife and dog's cautious retreat with my Spyderco Military in my hand...

In a human situation, I'd use  any means necessary to defend my family, no doubt, though I'd probably be crying in therapy later if I actually ever did kill somebody. 

[Fisting_Chili]

sadly due to the moment and drink it went over the top and out of control

I think this proves my point about defense and offense using the same tools pretty well... Couldn't have paid someone to make my point any better

Proves your point of what, that because some people might use knife etc. as criminal tools so nobody should carry them?

Proves my point that people who are good guys and who's only intention is self defense might not be in such full control over themselves as they think. If this guy had carried a SD knife with him, he might have killed the guy. His intention wasn't criminal in this instance, but as he himself said, the heat of the moment and him being drunk made him go over the top. Humans are emotional beings that can't be trusted to have full control over themselves, so arming everyone with self defense gear is just the same as arming everyone with potential offensive gear.

So making something illegal just because of the unpredictability factor and the potential for harming somebody is the answer?  I don't agree with that.  If that was the case, cars should be outlawed too.  While their main purpose is to get driver from pt A to pt B, a huge part of their design is focused on protecting the driver from collision.  However, a car can easily be turned into a potential offensive tool also and has been many, many times.  Doesn't make the car the problem, it's the person driving.

Simply comes back down to the age old adage, "Guns don't kill people.  People kill people."   It is cliche'ish but true.   
 

[Andreas]

So making something illegal just because of the unpredictability factor and the potential for harming somebody is the answer?  I don't agree with that.  If that was the case, cars should be outlawed too.  While their main purpose is to get driver from pt A to pt B, a huge part of their design is focused on protecting the driver from collision.  However, a car can easily be turned into a potential offensive tool also and has been many, many times.  Doesn't make the car the problem, it's the person driving.

If it wasn't clear (guess I failed to point it out) I'm talking about SD specific gear here. something like this: http://www.maxvenom.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_full/the-back-bite3.jpg
I dare say very few people carry that around for peeling oranges or open packages. If you carry around a knife for the specific purpose of using it against other human beings if necessary, that's different from carrying around a SAK or something like that. Both can stab people, but as norwegian law puts it, it's the intention of the tool that is the question. With you car methaphor, it would be the same as having an armored car with spikes all over it made for the specific purpose of running people down if needed.

Don't forget we're talking about opinions here. If I meet three people on the street; one with a SAK, one with that Venom knife, and one with no knife, then I personally would probably walk straight past the guy without a knife, start discussing multi tools with the SAK guy, and try to keep as far away from the Venom guy as possible. I don't trust anyone who would carry such a knife around, regardless of what they themselves use as the reason to justify it. That's just me, and that's one reason why I don't like SD specific knives. Most people don't find it necessary to carry a fighting knife for protecting themselves, and I find it highly suspicious when anyone does. 

[Styerman]

Good question , it is a legitimate topic , not all Hood's are peacefull . We are not all fortunate enuff to be in "shall issue" states.

I see no reason why I should offer up my life on the altar of failed social policy .

Their is a lot of B.S. and fairy dust talked by both sides , my personal take is , if you have something , and are able to deploy it - you will screw up the other guy's program !

I would try very hard to leave the S.O.S. where he dropped !

I have personally been attacked during the lawfull execution of my duties , as have a number of guys I have worked with . Like the rattlesnake  , A) don't tread on me , B) I will strike if provoked .

Chris

[Andreas]

I have personally been attacked during the lawfull execution of my duties , as have a number of guys I have worked with . Like the rattlesnake  , A) don't tread on me , B) I will strike if provoked .

Chris

What do you work as?

[Grant Lamontagne]

I've been attacked at both my jobs.  It's an occupational hazard for many people. 

In fact, I have a short list of folks online who I am certain wouldn't hesitate to take a shot at me if they met me in person.  Attacking someone is a simple response, and it's one that a lot of people are unable to control.

Def

[Andreas]

I've been attacked at both my jobs.  It's an occupational hazard for many people. 

In fact, I have a short list of folks online who I am certain wouldn't hesitate to take a shot at me if they met me in person.  Attacking someone is a simple response, and it's one that a lot of people are unable to control.

Def

Death threats is a given part of running a website, unfortunately. People are often a lot less confrontational in real life though, luckily

[Pacu]

With the free for all attitude towards guns and knives here in Texas people are actually fairly pleasant. An armed society is a polite society.

As with me i'm all for self defense if my property or family is in danger. I'd be first in line to fish hook someones eye socket for messing with my jeep or wear someones skin as my personal halloween costume should they harm my family. That being said i sure don't want to get kilt over someone sticking a gun in my face demanding my wallet.  Wallet...here ya go...have a nice day.

We have a law called the Castle Doctrine which basically lets you protect home, vehicle, business, and place of employment with deadly means..cut down on car thefts as the rednecks got trigger happy. Kinda nice knowing the state's got your back should someone kick in my door right now and i break out the Mossberg. I do carry a quick deploying knife as after the military i feel more comfortable with a blade than a CC weapon. Usually knives aren't given a second glance unless you've got some Mick Dundee special walking around the mall.

[Pacu]

I've been attacked at both my jobs.  It's an occupational hazard for many people. 

In fact, I have a short list of folks online who I am certain wouldn't hesitate to take a shot at me if they met me in person.  Attacking someone is a simple response, and it's one that a lot of people are unable to control.

Def

shot as in punch or shot as in bang bang?

[Mr. Whippy]

Don't forget we're talking about opinions here. If I meet three people on the street; one with a SAK, one with that Venom knife, and one with no knife, then I personally would probably walk straight past the guy without a knife, start discussing multi tools with the SAK guy, and try to keep as far away from the Venom guy as possible. I don't trust anyone who would carry such a knife around, regardless of what they themselves use as the reason to justify it. That's just me, and that's one reason why I don't like SD specific knives. Most people don't find it necessary to carry a fighting knife for protecting themselves, and I find it highly suspicious when anyone does. 

This (and a few other posts) tell me:

1.  You're young
2.  You're very bright and ambitious
3.  Your parents were very conscientious
4.  You haven't traveled much

For me, depending on the situation of course, I'd be more likely to ask the guy with the Venom about the knife and what he uses it for.  Probably the most interesting person of the three.

Give yourself 5 years.  I bet things start becoming more shades of grey and a little less black and white.

[Grant Lamontagne]

That depends on who you talk to- some fall into column A, others fall into column B.

I've been attacked at both my jobs.  It's an occupational hazard for many people.  

In fact, I have a short list of folks online who I am certain wouldn't hesitate to take a shot at me if they met me in person.  Attacking someone is a simple response, and it's one that a lot of people are unable to control.

Def

Death threats is a given part of running a website, unfortunately. People are often a lot less confrontational in real life though, luckily

It's also a given part of working the door at bars, and a given part of being a private contractor working in a union environment.  It was a given part of working in the jails, it was a given part of providing evidence in fraud trials... it's been a large part of my life for a lot of years.

Plus there's my general @$$holery that doesn't help matters.

Def

[Zack]

I've been attacked at both my jobs.  It's an occupational hazard for many people. 

In fact, I have a short list of folks online who I am certain wouldn't hesitate to take a shot at me if they met me in person.  Attacking someone is a simple response, and it's one that a lot of people are unable to control.

Def

Death threats is a given part of running a website, unfortunately. People are often a lot less confrontational in real life though, luckily

Grant used to run private security, is still a bouncer in a bar, and is canadian. I'm surpised he' still with us.

[Zack]

Don't forget we're talking about opinions here. If I meet three people on the street; one with a SAK, one with that Venom knife, and one with no knife, then I personally would probably walk straight past the guy without a knife, start discussing multi tools with the SAK guy, and try to keep as far away from the Venom guy as possible. I don't trust anyone who would carry such a knife around, regardless of what they themselves use as the reason to justify it. That's just me, and that's one reason why I don't like SD specific knives. Most people don't find it necessary to carry a fighting knife for protecting themselves, and I find it highly suspicious when anyone does. 

 
This (and a few other posts) tell me:

1.  You're young
2.  You're very bright and ambitious
3.  Your parents were very conscientious
4.  You haven't traveled much

For me, depending on the situation of course, I'd be more likely to ask the guy with the Venom about the knife and what he uses it for.  Probably the most interesting person of the three.

Give yourself 5 years.  I bet things start becoming more shades of grey and a little less black and white.

If I see someone openly carrying a knife or a gun I ask myself to questions: is a threat or a an ally? Watching his body language will answer those questions for me. If they are confident in stature and in stride you know they have carried that tool for awhile. They are comfortable with it and when the poop hits they will be an ally to save your own bacon. However, if they seem shifty, uncomfortable, or paranoid; watch them they could be a threat and should be avoided. Just becauase you carry a fighting knife or gun doesn't mean their intent is evil, unless of course it is provoked.

[Pacu]

i'd walk over to the guy without a knife and give him my cadet..point him to MT.org

[Medic82]

You are basically judging a book by its cover here, he’s carrying so he have to be a bad guy. I can’t see any difference in a person carrying a knife from a martial artist that is highly trained in, say, krav-maga, both are very deadly. I fully understand what you are thinking since you don’t know the person but I would observe the person for a while and read his body language before I eventually would decide to talk to him or not.

[ducktapehero]

If I meet three people on the street; one with a SAK, one with that Venom knife, and one with no knife, then I personally would probably walk straight past the guy without a knife, start discussing multi tools with the SAK guy, and try to keep as far away from the Venom guy as possible.

For the most part you seem like an intelligent guy but you're letting an inanimate tool cloud your judgement. A person is the exact same whether they are carrying a gun or a butter knife. Go pick up a baseball bat. Now, you're carrying something that makes an excellent weapon, but you're still the same person. I'm assuming that just because you picked up a bat that doesn't mean that all of a sudden you're gonna go out and beat the crap out of someone. The ONLY thing that has changed is that you are holding a piece of wood. What you do with it is up to you. 

In your described situation, instead of not trusting the guy who has the "evil" looking knife, I'd use my human intelligence and rational thought and talk to the one who seemed nicest. You have instinct, it's called your "gut feeling". Every big dog has a set of teeth but you don't fear ALL dogs do you? No, however, if one is acting "strange" you watch it very carefully don't you? It's not the "teeth" you fear, it's the unbalanced dog weidling those teeth. There are people all over the world, in every country, in every city who would be more than happy to kill you for your pocket change. And those people WILL find a way to do it if they want to. If they can't buy a weapon they'll make one or steal one. They're criminals, by definition they ignore laws. Now, if one of those douchebags decides that he wants to rape your daughter and he's got a butcher knife, would you want to fight him off with a Swiss Army Knife, or a high capacity rifle?

To me, choosing to just "hope" that doesn't happen is a disservice to my family. I am not a violent person but I own guns. I own them NOT because I hunt. I own them in the off chance that if someone wants to harm my family my guns will give me a chance to stop them before they do it. Because I love my Wife and Son more than life itself.


Besides, if having a weapon makes people prone to violence by the same thought then people who own fire extinguishers are prone to start fires. Right?

[Mr. Whippy]

Besides, if having a weapon makes people prone to violence by the same thought then people who own fire extinguishers are prone to start fires. Right?

No Comment.

 

[Fisting_Chili]

I've been attacked at both my jobs.  It's an occupational hazard for many people. 

In fact, I have a short list of folks online who I am certain wouldn't hesitate to take a shot at me if they met me in person.  Attacking someone is a simple response, and it's one that a lot of people are unable to control.

Def

Death threats is a given part of running a website, unfortunately. People are often a lot less confrontational in real life though, luckily

Grant used to run private security, is still a bouncer in a bar, and is canadian. I'm surpised he' still with us.

[ducktapehero]

Besides, if having a weapon makes people prone to violence by the same thought then people who own fire extinguishers are prone to start fires. Right?

No Comment.

 

Well obviously you wanted to convey SOME thought or you wouldn't have taken time to comment "No comment". I have guns for the exact same reason I have a fire extinguisher. In case I need it. And if they made a fire extinguisher that was easily concealed I'd probably have one.

[Pacu]

I carried a tanker ak for a while in my truck just in case   when ever i drove cross counties (legal)

that's when i lived in the boonies though.

[Mr. Whippy]

Besides, if having a weapon makes people prone to violence by the same thought then people who own fire extinguishers are prone to start fires. Right?

No Comment.

 

Well obviously you wanted to convey SOME thought or you wouldn't have taken time to comment "No comment". I have guns for the exact same reason I have a fire extinguisher. In case I need it. And if they made a fire extinguisher that was easily concealed I'd probably have one.

I carry fire extinguishers too.  I didn't want to incriminate myself  

Edit to add:

I carry a Donor card too, but that doesn't mean...

[ducktapehero]

Oh OK, I thought you were giving me grief.   

[Andreas]

I don't really think there is a point in disussing anything with something who think a fire extinguisher and a gun is more or less the same thing. EIther it's meant as a joke, or...well

[Mr. Whippy]

Don't get prickly, it was merely an analogy, I don't think he was truly equating the two.

[Andreas]

Nonetheless, an analogy that I find hard to believe anyone can mean seriously. If shooting someone ends violence, the equivalent for fire fighting would be to use explosives to blow away all the oxygen. And yes, if someone was walking around with a hand grenade in case of fire I'd avoid them too 

[Fisting_Chili]

I don't really think there is a point in disussing anything with something who think a fire extinguisher and a gun is more or less the same thing. EIther it's meant as a joke, or...well

I think pointing out that you believe there is no point discussing anything w/somebody is kinda silly.  Better to just not comment, no?  Not trying to argue here, just having a cordial, polite disagreement.  No animosity intended in any of my posts.  I'm just a happy Hawaiian!

[Andreas]

True that. I think I'll leave this thread alone as I don't agree with most people here anyways and I find it scary how many people would use any weapon against another human being, self defense or not. Cultural differences I guess, it's nice living in a country where not even the police find a need to EDC a weapon

[Zack]

True that. I think I'll leave this thread alone as I don't agree with most people here anyways and I find it scary how many people would use any weapon against another human being, self defense or not. Cultural differences I guess, it's nice living in a country where not even the police find a need to EDC a weapon

Until you have been in a situation were force was needed...you will never understand.  I have...it sucks...but I walked away.