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Annoying thread

gb Offline Mike, Lord of the Spammers!

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Annoying thread
on: September 17, 2007, 06:11:41 PM
On another forum I recently saw a poll asking the members which of the following 2 knives would they take to a tropical island and have to survive with for a period of time.

1) was a Swiss Champ.

2) was a Chris Reeve Sebenza.

And the annoying part ???, a lot of people voted for the Sebenza! >:(

Now don't get me wrong I'm sure the Sebenza's a very fine knife, but better than a swiss champion in a survival situation ??? I don't think so!

I've been wracking my limited supply of brains to think of a reason why I'd take a Sebby over almost any sak and all I can come up with is as follow's

a) The sebby will hold it's edge longer (but be close to impossible to sharpen using natural materials)

b) You could in theory batton wood with it (but if you broke the liner lock the knife will become very dangerous to use)

c) You could use it as a weapon more effectively than you could the champ (But again you could use the sak to construct a bow, spear or a club)

So try as I might I can't think of a WORTHWHILE reason to take the sebbie or any tactical folder over a humble Sak in a survival situation ???

I think it's just a typical case of Sak/multi prejudiece again >:(
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 06:16:40 PM by micky d »
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us Offline 665ae

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #1 on: September 17, 2007, 06:38:37 PM
Ok... before I answer.  What benefits would you have by having a SwissChamp while trying to survive on a tropical island?
If you took all the intestines out of your body and stretched them end to end... you would die.


gb Offline Mike, Lord of the Spammers!

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #2 on: September 17, 2007, 06:50:02 PM
Ok... before I answer.  What benefits would you have by having a SwissChamp while trying to survive on a tropical island?
The means to collect and split fire wood.

The ability to make trap's of varieing size's.

Possibly even starting the fire with the magnifying glass.

Personal hygene tool's with the scissors, tooth pick and tweezers.

Possible kit repairs with the pliers and file.

Cleaning game with one of the blade's while eating with other. Also can use the fish descaler for fish (obviously ::))

Manufacture of clothing and equipment with the awl and again the plier's.

Should you be lucky enough to find tin good's you have the means to open them (same with bottle's)

Theres a few of the top of my head, the list is as long as you imagination :)
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us Offline CQC-7

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #3 on: September 17, 2007, 07:00:28 PM
O.K. I understand that the Sebenza and the swisschamp are great tools both of which are capable of making the survival situation easier than no tools at all.  The Sebenza would be better suited to baton wood.  Contrary to popular belief, an edge can be put on a sebenza with a sandstone if need be.  The swisschamp can also do many tasks that a sebenza could not.  Id give my vote to the swisschamp only because of the utility of the tools implements.  As far as blades go the sebenza is far superior.  As for the island argument.  Stone age people managed to survive with only stone tools (mostly blades of various shapes and sizes) so a blade is definately the base of a survival situation. 


Offline Papacat

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #4 on: September 17, 2007, 07:19:54 PM
I think people disregard the SwissChamp because they believe the SAK to be antiquated mixed in with the belief that if you put the word "tactical" in front of anything it is instantly becomes versatile and durable, i.e.: tactical knife, tactical flashlight, tactical spoon, etc.

-Tactical Papacat.
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us Offline 665ae

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #5 on: September 17, 2007, 07:28:08 PM
The means to collect and split fire wood.
You can do that with a Sebenza

Quote
The ability to make trap's of varieing size's.

Again, you could do that with the Sebenza

Quote
Possibly even starting the fire with the magnifying glass.
True, but depending on the weather... I would probably want my camp/fire to be sheltered.   It would probably be useful for a signal fire on the beach though :)  I'm curious though, has anyone here done this with a SAK magnifying glass?

Quote
Personal hygene tool's with the scissors, tooth pick and tweezers.
True... but I could use the knife blade in place of scissors (I admit, the cuts probably won't be as precise) and I could make a toothpick by shaving down small twigs or small animal bones.  The tweezers are a bonus though.  

Quote
Possible kit repairs with the pliers and file.
I'm assuming that if you're "stranded" on a tropical island, you probably don't have much of a kit with you.  Just going by what I normally EDC, I don't see much need for a pair of pliers.  The file could be useful though.

Quote
Cleaning game with one of the blade's while eating with other. Also can use the fish descaler for fish (obviously ::))
The two blades would be nice, but you can wash/heat the blade to disinfect it.   I don't see much need for the descaler, but I think that has more to do with how I would cook the fish.  

Quote
Manufacture of clothing and equipment with the awl and again the plier's.
How long are you planning on being there? :P  I normally think of "survival" situations lasting about 72 hours max... after that, you'll need some primitive living skills, and you'll probably make most of your tools :)

Quote
Should you be lucky enough to find tin good's you have the means to open them (same with bottle's)
I can open a can with a blade, it just doesn't look real pretty.  I'd be more interested in why I'm finding canned goods and bottles on a "deserted" tropical island :P

I don't really know which one I would prefer.   I'd probably go with the SwissChamp because of the implements, but a large part of me is screaming to take the dedicated blade :)


If you took all the intestines out of your body and stretched them end to end... you would die.


gb Offline Mike, Lord of the Spammers!

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #6 on: September 17, 2007, 08:15:30 PM
I'm not saying you can't survive with a sebenza, you could, but it would be a hell of a lot easier with the Sak  in my opinion, and if you were given the choice of either tool, surely you'd be better served by something versitile like a champ :)
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Offline damota

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #7 on: September 17, 2007, 10:36:40 PM
I'm not saying you can't survive with a sebenza, you could, but it would be a hell of a lot easier with the Sak  in my opinion, and if you were given the choice of either tool, surely you'd be better served by something versitile like a champ :)

The sebenza looks more macho so must be better?
It costs more so maybe it comes with it own Man friday? ;)
More serious-
If it comes to a survival situation it is unlikely you will have time to pick and choose what you will have to survive, if it is on a tropical island you will not have anything sharp with you if you arrived by air, by sea you might be lucky and get by any checks carrying something less aggressive such as a SAK.

Dave


gb Offline Mike, Lord of the Spammers!

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #8 on: September 17, 2007, 10:40:58 PM
I'm not saying you can't survive with a sebenza, you could, but it would be a hell of a lot easier with the Sak  in my opinion, and if you were given the choice of either tool, surely you'd be better served by something versitile like a champ :)

The sebenza looks more macho so must be better?
It costs more so maybe it comes with it own Man friday? ;)
More serious-
If it comes to a survival situation it is unlikely you will have time to pick and choose what you will have to survive, if it is on a tropical island you will not have anything sharp with you if you arrived by air, by sea you might be lucky and get by any checks carrying something less aggressive such as a SAK.

Dave
I agree every sebenza should come with your very own jeeves, pimms anyone? ;D

I'm just saying what the original poll on the other forum said, what would you rather find in you pocket on said survival situation?

I just struggled with the logic of those who said Sebenza ???
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Offline Sparkey

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #9 on: September 17, 2007, 10:44:23 PM
"The best tool is the one between you ears.."


but personally, I'd go with the SAK... ;D

OR, I could apply the multitool.org rule....BOTH! :multi:
"


us Offline NeitherExtreme

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #10 on: September 17, 2007, 10:46:57 PM
Hmm... I'd actually have to say that's a tough one for me. If there was the choice of a fixed-blade knife I'd probably take that over either one. To me the biggest plus of the SAK would be if you could start fires with the magnying glass (I'm also interested to know if it can be done!). I could also see the awl and saw as being useful for survival. The Sebenza on the other hand is much closer to a fixed-blade knife, which IMO would seem like the most basic survival tool of all. I'm not sure which I would choose, but then again, I'll never have to...  :D


ca Offline Grant Lamontagne

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #11 on: September 17, 2007, 10:47:39 PM
That sounds familiar... honestly, I would take the Sebenza too because I could sell it to the natives in exchange for everlasting support, while the SwissTool would probably only buy me a few years worth of slaves!

Def
Leave the dents as they are- let your belongings show their scars as proudly as you do yours.


gb Offline Mike, Lord of the Spammers!

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #12 on: September 17, 2007, 10:51:08 PM
"The best tool is the one between you ears.."


but personally, I'd go with the SAK... ;D

OR, I could apply the multitool.org rule....BOTH! :multi:
That's very true :)
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gb Offline Mike, Lord of the Spammers!

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #13 on: September 17, 2007, 10:52:38 PM
Hmm... I'd actually have to say that's a tough one for me. If there was the choice of a fixed-blade knife I'd probably take that over either one. To me the biggest plus of the SAK would be if you could start fires with the magnying glass (I'm also interested to know if it can be done!). I could also see the awl and saw as being useful for survival. The Sebenza on the other hand is much closer to a fixed-blade knife, which IMO would seem like the most basic survival tool of all. I'm not sure which I would choose, but then again, I'll never have to...  :D
Well I'm sure most of us would take a fixed blade if the option was there :), but sadly the original thread was specifically sebbie or champ :-\
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gb Offline Mike, Lord of the Spammers!

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #14 on: September 17, 2007, 10:53:44 PM
That sounds familiar... honestly, I would take the Sebenza too because I could sell it to the natives in exchange for everlasting support, while the SwissTool would probably only buy me a few years worth of slaves!

Def
Hmm If it was a slave for ''every'' need I could come round to the idea of a sebenza after all ;)
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us Offline CQC-7

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #15 on: September 17, 2007, 11:34:18 PM
You could take out the magnifying glass and burn one of the natives and then you may be considered a god.

"Ray, the next time that someone asks you if youre a god you say YES!"
-Bill Murray, Ghostbusters


ca Offline Grant Lamontagne

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #16 on: September 17, 2007, 11:54:52 PM
I love that movie...

Given the choice between a SwissChamp and a Sebbie, I would take the Champ, and not just because I'm a SAK nut.  The Champ (and other SAKs) are better suited to many of the more mundane tasks you'd find in a survival situation, like pulling splinters.  In some parts of the world, the infection resulting from a simple splinter can kill you.  Also, as Dunc pointed out, the saw could be used to open tougher foods like coconuts. 

Of course if I had a Sebbie and was washed up on an island, I'll bet I get washed up with a bunch of imported beer without twist offs, and several crates of canned food!

Def
Leave the dents as they are- let your belongings show their scars as proudly as you do yours.


Offline znapschatz

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #17 on: September 18, 2007, 12:50:12 AM
Swisschamp, definitely, for the previously cited reasons, except one.  Although there have been reports of it being done, I have so far (30 years) been unsuccessful in starting a fire with a Vic magnifier.  The best I could so far manage is burning tiny holes in darkened (to tone down reflectivity) paper, making brief wisps in charred cloth and having no effect at all on wood shavings.  If my life depended on it, maybe I could work it out, but would prefer a fully charged Zippo lighter (I'm an older person).  The magnifier is just too small.  Recently, however, Vic has been fitting current production with a revised version that's a little larger; maybe enough to do the trick, but I doubt it.

Also, the fish scaler is NG for its intended purpose, although I use mine lots for a probe or olive fork (not before cleaning thoroughly ;D).  The large knife blade works much better for scaling, but cleanup is a bitch.

Although you might think there are implements on a Swisschamp that would be useless, the only certainty in a survival situation is that you'll never know what might come in handy.

BTW, who's annoyed?
 
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 12:51:55 AM by znapschatz »


gb Offline Mike, Lord of the Spammers!

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #18 on: September 18, 2007, 10:35:58 AM
Swisschamp, definitely, for the previously cited reasons, except one.  Although there have been reports of it being done, I have so far (30 years) been unsuccessful in starting a fire with a Vic magnifier.  The best I could so far manage is burning tiny holes in darkened (to tone down reflectivity) paper, making brief wisps in charred cloth and having no effect at all on wood shavings.  If my life depended on it, maybe I could work it out, but would prefer a fully charged Zippo lighter (I'm an older person).  The magnifier is just too small.  Recently, however, Vic has been fitting current production with a revised version that's a little larger; maybe enough to do the trick, but I doubt it.

Also, the fish scaler is NG for its intended purpose, although I use mine lots for a probe or olive fork (not before cleaning thoroughly ;D).  The large knife blade works much better for scaling, but cleanup is a bitch.

Although you might think there are implements on a Swisschamp that would be useless, the only certainty in a survival situation is that you'll never know what might come in handy.

BTW, who's annoyed?
 
I was a little annoyed at the people who voted against the champ purely because it was a sak and not some high end tactical folder. ::)

It rally gets my goat when people look down there noses at saks/multis >:(

As for the magnifiying lens, well like you i've got things to smoulder but never hot enough to start a fire, but if it was your only means of making fire I'd probably try a lot harder ;D

Although I did burn the crap out of my best mate's neck with my champ once :D
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us Offline 665ae

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #19 on: September 18, 2007, 01:48:54 PM
Quote
It rally gets my goat when people look down there noses at saks/multis

As a relative newcomer to knife forums in general, I also see a lot of SAK people that look "down their noses" at just about any fixed blade or folder...  I think the bias goes both ways.
If you took all the intestines out of your body and stretched them end to end... you would die.


ca Offline Grant Lamontagne

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #20 on: September 18, 2007, 01:57:44 PM
We tend to look down on them because they have much higher price tags and less versatility.  It's kind of like a group of off roaders in beat up Jeeps looking at a guy who wants to join with his brand new Lincoln Navigator, but then gets upset because he gets some scratches and mud.

The reason SOSAK was so successful in the beginning was because all the tactical knife people secretly carried a SAK to do their dirty work!

Def
Leave the dents as they are- let your belongings show their scars as proudly as you do yours.


gb Offline Mike, Lord of the Spammers!

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #21 on: September 18, 2007, 02:05:13 PM
Quote
It rally gets my goat when people look down there noses at saks/multis

As a relative newcomer to knife forums in general, I also see a lot of SAK people that look "down their noses" at just about any fixed blade or folder...  I think the bias goes both ways.
Maybe the bias does work both way's but I like to think that's not the case with me (although I'm not the world's greatest tacticle knife fan :-[) I've got and continue to use lot's of fixed blades and love them to bit's, especially now that a lot of companies are offering really good real world knives in the line ups

If the choice was between say an Falkie F1 and a Champ then I'd have gone for the F1 :)
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Offline ringzero

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #22 on: September 18, 2007, 03:55:43 PM
Quote
It rally gets my goat when people look down there noses at saks/multis

As a relative newcomer to knife forums in general, I also see a lot of SAK people that look "down their noses" at just about any fixed blade or folder...  I think the bias goes both ways.


Maybe, but I don't find SAK enthusiasts to be as stuck up and snobbish as many of the "tactical" knife enthusiasts.

Many of those people will tell you - in all seriousness - that the minimum threshold for a decent knife is 100 bucks.  Any knife less than 100 bucks is garbage, not even worthy of consideration.

Another thing about these people that really bugs me is their constant repetition of the phrase "You get what you pay for."  They'll use that phrase over and over to justify spending $200, $300, $500, or even more on a three-inch "tactical" folder.

Another thing I get fed up with real quick is their enthusiasm for - and snobbishness about - "super steels."  Many of these people are ignorant of even basic metallurgy, but will go on and on about the superiority of the steel in their latest stainless "tactical" folder.

Underlying all of this hype and fantasy about "super steel" and "tactical" features is the biggest fallacy of all:  that a $500 "tactical" folding knife in your pocket means you are well-prepared for self defense.


(Modified to fix bad grammar in original post.)

.
 
« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 01:51:16 AM by ringzero »
N


ca Offline Grant Lamontagne

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #23 on: September 18, 2007, 09:07:28 PM
Of course if you spent $40 on an OHT, you'd be much more prepared, and still have $360 for more gear for the B.O.B., P.S.K. or other acronyms!

Def
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Offline damota

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #24 on: September 18, 2007, 09:53:59 PM

Maybe, but I don't find SAK enthusiasts to be as stuck up and snobbish as many of the "tactical" knife enthusiasts.

Many of those people will tell you - in all seriousness - that the minimum threshold for a decent knife is 100 bucks.  Anything knife less than 100 bucks is garbage, not even worthy of consideration.

Another thing about these people that really bugs me is their constant repetition of the phrase "You get what you pay for."  They'll use that phrase over and over to justify spending $200, $300, $500, or even more on a three-inch "tactical" folder.

Another thing I get fed up with real quick is their enthusiasm for - and snobbishness about - "super steels."  Many of these people are ignorant of even basic metallurgy, but will go on and on about the superiority of the steel in their latest stainless "tactical" folder.

Underlying all of this hype and fantasy about "super steel" and "tactical" features is the biggest fallacy of all:  that a $500 "tactical" folding knife in your pocket means you are well-prepared for self defense.
.
 

The original question appears to be more of a way to question those two opposing views than be a serious survival question.
I know that if something happened were I had to survive I would be using a Spyderco UK knife and my Cybertool because I am never without them. (The Cybertool through laziness, it is clipped to my small Gerber LED light.)
If the town was being attacked by those pesky Zombies or Martians or whatever and I had to travel to a safe area I would pick a Becker, RAT or something like that! Not going to happen, so I would make do with a cheap fixed blade about 3.5 - 4 inches long (both illegal in the UK unless you have cause to use them in your work or you can get away with using them for field craft (camping?). I certainly would not be looking for some expensive custom knife that I know I would be shy to use knowing it might break (you would not be able to send it back under guarantee) or get lost.

Dave


us Offline CQC-7

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Re: Annoying thread
Reply #25 on: September 19, 2007, 01:54:15 AM
I have $200 folders.  I have $5 SAKs (tinker on special at Wal-Mart).  I have to say that I have had no advantage with a $200 folder over a SAK or multitool.  That is why I have converted to multitools and Saks.  I collect folding knives I can buy many more SAKs than I can Striders.  If I get pulled over and an officer likes my 4" strider, he can take it and I am out $300.  If I am carrying a SAK he looks the other way.  Multitools and SAKs are every bit as useful and finely crafted as a production folder and they cost a lot less so you are not afraid to use them.


 

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