Vic Deluxe Tinker vs LM Juice CS4

[AimlessWanderer]

I originally posted this review on another forum a couple of months ago, but since joining I thought I'd offer it up to you guys for scrutiny/feedback too

Vic Deluxe Tinker vs LM Juice CS4

After eyeing up the Juice line for a long time and hearing mixed reports, I finally succumbed and decided to grab a CS4.When it arrived I thought I’d do my own review and put it head to head with my regular pocket tool of choice, the Victorinox Silvertech Deluxe Tinker to see how the two compare. They are of course very different tools, but with many similar intended uses, and quite similar sizes.

I decided to give marks out of 5 for design concept and the same again for execution of design / quality of manufacture for each of the features, plus a few brief overall observations at the end. For the purpose of fairness in this review, the Juice has three tools the SAK does not (small flat driver, saw & corkscrew), and the SAK has three extras over the Juice (hook, pen blade & removable items). The other 10 features (albeit some of them combo’s) make for good comparison material.



The reason for trying the Juice CS4 was to see if it could be a viable alternative to the SAK and be a pocket friendly alternative to a Swisstool & the mighty Wengergrip (one of which is bag carried, the other now lives at the boat) for decent sized pliers when the EDC bag is not to hand.



Main Blade



Both tools arrived with a good keen edge, and I would put them on a par as regards factory sharpness. The primary grind is not as refined (coarser) on the LM however, and this particular piece certainly does not have the blade sweep I’ve seen in other pics. The Vic’s blade is longer, wider and has a much more defined snap on opening and closing. The Juice blade has a thicker spine which returns some strength for the narrow blade, but means it doesn’t slice as well as the Vic. Having more belly on the SAK blade helps too. I didn’t carry out any edge retention tests, but would assume that we aren’t looking at record breakers here – the focus being cost and easy to sharpen. All that aside, I would say that for many people with light use requirements, both these tools provide a respectable EDC blade with no play once opened.

Ratings: Vic DT Design 4/5 - Vic DT Quality 5/5 - LMJ Design 3/5 - LMJ Quality 4/5

Secondary Blade



No second blade on this Juice model (XE6 and discontinued KF4 only I believe). The vic’s blade was just as sharp from the factory, and walks and talks just as well as the main blade

Ratings: Vic DT Design 4/5 - Vic DT Quality 5/5 - LMJ Design N/A - LMJ Quality N/A

Scissors



From a design perspective the Juice certainly has the edge here with a greater cut depth and more robust opening spring. The deeper cut does sacrifice some handle length though losing leverage on tougher materials, despite having a larger pivot pin. The Juice’s scissors feel “gritty” in operation and probably need some dressing for me to be happy with them, and whilst they snap out from the body of the tool just fine, they catch badly against the inner liner (plier head cavity) on the way back in and have to be pushed home. The Vic’s snap out and back very nicely and are very smooth cutting.

Ratings: Vic DT Design 3.5/5 - Vic DT Quality 5/5 - LMJ Design 4.5/5 - LMJ Quality 2/5

Saw



OK, first tool which is Juice only. I still thought it needed a comparison though so I pitched it against the Swisstool & Wengergrip. On this model you have to open the awl before getting to the saw blade, then have to close the awl again to avoid having pointing at major arteries whilst sawing. This means you have to remember to open the awl again to stow it away. This is unnecessary faffing about in my opinion, which could have been avoided with a better awl design. There is another problem with stowing back away too – it favours the wrong side of the awl. I’m not sure if you can see clearly on here, but the saw is trying to go down the back of the awl when you close it, and to have to physically push the saw forwards to close the awl. Shoddy!



The actual tooth profile varies from the Swisstool & Wengergrip in that it is directional, favouring a pulling action (very sensible for such a light thin blade), and it’s thin profile means it is not trying to remove any more material than is necessary. I did a test cut with each of the three tools on a stick about 30mm diameter (that’s about 1.1/4”) with 10 fore and aft strokes. The Juice was on a par with the Swisstool here, and I reckon the only reason the Wengergrip won was the stroke length of the blade. So in actual performance the saw compared very well.
 


So ... if you are heading outdoors somewhere and know you are liable to need a saw, there’s only really one choice in my mind .... a Bahco Laplander!!! That thing got over halfway through with ten strokes with a heavily used blade. Highly recommended!



Ratings: Vic DT Design N/A - Vic DT Quality N/A - LMJ Design 4/5 - LMJ Quality 2/5

Pliers



Very obvious differences in capabilities here. The Juice is a medium duty, well made set of pliers with good serrations and cutters. Full marks to LM on this one – very impressive especially considering overall tool size. The Deluxe Tinker’s pliers are much lighter duty, but have still proved useful for tasks including small electrical work, pulling heavy splinters and assisting with sewing on heavy materials (pulling needle). Same high class fit and finish with great walk and talk on the Vic.

Ratings: Vic DT Design 3/5 - Vic DT Quality 5/5 - LMJ Design 5/5 - LMJ Quality 5/5

Awl



Two very different designs again here, with Vic’s T handled configuration with sewing eye, and LM’s L section affair with a nicely rounded tip. Yes that’s right – ROUNDED. LM failed here to monumental proportions. In test, the Vic punched through a piece of an old leather apron with relative ease. Effort was required but it got there admirably. The Juice merely made an indentation with as much force applied as I thought was sensible/safe – never even tried to “cut” the material.



Similarly in wood, five twists and moderate pressure had a hole approx 3mm (1/8”) deep, whilst the Juice again made the merest indentation ... if you can find it on the pic.



I decided to give LM a point for at least giving you something you might be able to turn into an awl with a bit of effort.

Ratings: Vic DT Design 5/5 - Vic DT Quality 5/5 - LMJ Design 1/5 - LMJ Quality 1/5

Bottle Opener
 


LM’s combo tool has the edge here due to the better hook section, but the Vic’s still works, though not always on first bite.

Ratings: Vic DT Design 3/5 - Vic DT Quality 4/5 - LMJ Design 4/5 - LMJ Quality 4/5

Can Opener



Two different designs, two different directions of operation. The Vic cuts forward, and the Juice cuts back. Time to get vicious with a tin of baby carrots. The Juice went first ... and failed to get started! Other than the lack of sharpness, the Juice doesn’t present much in the way of a penetrating point, and failed to pierce the can with as much force as I was prepared to give it..



The Vic whipped around half the can’s circumference in 15 swipes, but was a little clumsy and not the smoothest operation. As the can was already pierced it was able to complete the job, again in 15 swipes, and was smoother in use and slightly less jagged around the lid.



Ratings: Vic DT Design 3/5 - Vic DT Quality 5/5 - LMJ Design 2/5 - LMJ Quality 2/5

Phillips Driver



Both tools come with a comparably sized 3D driver bit, the Vic’s having good reach and a T handle for torque but which limits use in certain areas. The Juice has less reach but can work in tighter spaces. Both worked fine on some screws on my cast iron cooking range.

Ratings: Vic DT Design 4/5 - Vic DT Quality 5/5 - LMJ Design 4/5 - LMJ Quality 5/5

Large Flat Driver



This is the only tool on the Vic which does not snap shut (closes smoothly), and though it has greater reach, both tools appear to work fine. The SAK has a slight advantage of a half stop on opening for more torque on stubborn screws, and a wire stripper. I didn’t try it, but doubt the Juice’s nail nick would work in that role.

Ratings: Vic DT Design 4/5 - Vic DT Quality 4/5 - LMJ Design 3/5 - LMJ Quality 4/5

Medium Flat Driver



The LM has the edge here with reach and tool shape. Maybe Victorinox should have abandoned the smaller driver and gone for Wenger’s far superior can opener

Ratings: Vic DT Design 2/5 - Vic DT Quality 5/5 - LMJ Design 5/5 - LMJ Quality 4/5

Small Flat Driver



Again, LM has the edge here with no comparable tool on the SAK

Ratings: Vic DT Design N/A- Vic DT Quality N/A - LMJ Design 5/5 - LMJ Quality 4/5

Corkscrew with Assist



The offer of an assist, puts the Juice ahead of all SAK’s in cork removal – at least in theory. As of yet I’ve not had call to test this particular function, but do have concerns about the effectiveness due to the shortness of the corkscrew and the fact that part of this may need to be left out of the cork in order to effectively use the assist. Possibly a winner on synthetic corks, but maybe not genuine ones

Ratings: Vic DT Design N/A- Vic DT Quality N/A - LMJ Design 4/5 - LMJ Quality 4/5
(Provisional Score – will be revised once tested)

Removable Tools



The toothpick and tweezers, feature on this model along with the hole for carrying the pin under the Phillips driver. These are great additions to the tool, and whilst not competitors for Uncle Bills Silver Grippers, the pin/tweezers/small pliers combo should handle most splinters. Personally I prefer the plastic scales over the Alox versions purely for the inclusion of these items.

Ratings: Vic DT Design 4/5- Vic DT Quality 5/5 - LMJ Design N/A - LMJ Quality N/A

Hook



I’ve used this once and once only – to fish the lanyard loop out of the Juice! Although this is something I’ve not had much call for yet – I’m not going to write it off as totally pointless

Ratings: Vic DT Design 3/5- Vic DT Quality 5/5 - LMJ Design N/A - LMJ Quality N/A

Lanyard



The Vic’s is fixed but tight to the body, whilst the Juice’s is retractable and chunkier in size ... as well as a major pain to fish out. That said, lanyard requirements are different for everyone, so I’ll give these equal marks.

Ratings: Vic DT Design 3/5- Vic DT Quality 3/5 - LMJ Design 3/5 - LMJ Quality 3/5


TOTAL SCORES:
Vic DT Design 41.5 - Vic DT Quality 61 - LMJ Design 47.5 - LMJ Quality 40
(Out of a potential 65 for each category)

Aesthetics
Both good looking tools in my opinion and also friendly looking enough to not unduly disturb those who misinterpret carry of a knife as malicious intent

Ergonomics
Both items are comfortable in use with no irritating corners etc, though it must be noted that one of the Juice’s handles is noticeably thicker than the other.

Value For Money
This depends on where you are on the planet, and how many beer vouchers you need to trade for one. Here in the UK you can get a Deluxe Tinker delivered to your door for under £30 whereas the CS4 will set you back more than double that at over £70

Conclusions:
If you don’t need the pliers or can get by with lighter duty ones, and you can get past the brand myopia, the rather splendid Deluxe Tinker could make you a very happy and well prepared person. If however you absolutely MUST have heavier pliers, and you absolutely MUST have the entire tool assortment weighing in at less than 5oz – then it’s got to be the Juice CS4. Do bear in mind though that as it came from the factory with no modifications two tools completely failed to carry out their intended functions, and two others failed to fold away properly (and I expect more disappointment when I finally try the corkscrew)

However, as with all EDC tools, gadgets and gizmos .. it all comes down to what YOU want to have in YOUR pocket. I hope this comparison helps others make their own decisions based on their own needs.

[Gareth]

Good comparison 50ft.    I'll need to see if I agree with you when my Juice SC2 arrives.

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

Very fine review and comparison mate

[NutSAK]

   Good job! 

I'll stick with the quality feel of the Vic. 

[EZ822]

Enjoyed reading your review. Well done.

[Sazabi]

Nice comparison review.   Don't forget, too, that you can add a mini screwdriver to your Leatherman's corkscrew to add another tool without taking up additional space.

[Smitty44]

Welcome to the forums,and thanks for a great review.

[AimlessWanderer]

Thanks for the feedback guys

Nice comparison review.   Don't forget, too, that you can add a mini screwdriver to your Leatherman's corkscrew to add another tool without taking up additional space.

That's a fair point, but a moot point if it doesn't get carried/used. To be honest I keep picking it up, looking at it, and putting it back in favour of the Vic. I have considered doing some work to it to make it into the tool it should have been in the first place, but a few things concern me.

Sharpening the awl, modifying the can opener and dressing the scissor blades are relatively straight forward - however, fixing the saw/awl/scissor stowage issues could be a biggie. I think the scissors are catching on both sides (i.e. the slot it stows in is too narrow - incorrect spacing), and I reckon the saw is either bent or drilled out of square (possibly even ground "off-axis" to the hinge section).

I can't decide how to move forward on this - paying more than twice the cost of a vic for something less functional smarts a bit lot. I'm not confident a return trip to LM would see the issues fixed ..... it needs a few coats of looking at I reckon.

Anyone got any thoughts how to salvage this?

[widgetsgadgets]

Oh wow! I pretty much like the CS4.

[Crouton]

First off I loved the comparison/review.

It pretty much sums up my feelings about both tools.  I've often wished it were possible for manufacturers to legally build the designs of others.  I'd love to see a CS4 design made by Victorinox.  Victorinox in general has amazing build quality but the designs aren't ideal for my usage.  That's why I carry a Charge TTi.

Again, nice review.

[ducktapehero]

My biggest issue with the Juice models has always been the can opener. To put it bluntly, it sucks. Come on LM, you can do better than that.

[AimlessWanderer]

This Juice CS4 just gets WORSE!!!

I must start out by saying I haven't carried this tool yet due to the highlighted issues, all I've done is picked it up occasionally, fiddled with it, sighed, and put it back. The only work it's done is open a couple of beers when I left my SAK at work one day.

This evening after finding out I'd won Neil's givaway on SAK parts for modding (cheers feller  ), I picked up the Juice to have another look over it and ponder if any of the SAK parts could be used to salvage this pathetic offering from a company I am growing to loathe more and more. I opened the scissors to again consider how best to remedy the stowage issue, and they've gone VERY floppy! These operated quite smoothly before, although gritty at the tip due to the badly ground micro serrations, but now after NOT DOING ANY WORK there is about 1/8" of play (rocking) at either end on the movable blade - almost as if the pivot has moved in one of the two halves.

Leatherman - if you're reading this - THIS IS A DISGRACE!!!!

Here's what you get for £70 folks ...

1) An awl that doesn't even work
2) A saw that doesn't stow away properly (very poor alignment)
3) Uneven handles
4) A can opener that doesn't even work
5) Scissors that don't stow properly (wider than the slot they're supposed to fit in)
6) Scissors whose hinge is so weak it is sprained cutting nothing but AIR
7) Screwdriver bits that are stiff to open, then stab you in the back of your finger when they finally yield to your command

.... and I still haven't tested the corkscrew yet, but have read reports that it ain't that great, and the assist has chipped bottles.

This company is now PROUDLY moving into cheaper tools, hoping to encourage people to buy a full price tool later  ... WHAT!! If this is the quality you get at this price ... what debacle awaits the poor unfortunates who buys cheaper versions? Sorry guy's but I can't accept that I've just just been unlucky here. Unlucky is getting a tool which has one, or maybe even two defects which slip through inspection ... this is not the case. I now believe my much hated GERBER SUSPENSION is better designed and better manufactured than this and cost less than half the price. In my opinion based on both my purchases Leatherman should either:

a) sell up to Victorinox/Wenger,
b) sell up to Spyderco, or
c) simply start designing tools that work, manufacturing them correctly, inspecting them correctly, and stop selling substandard product

Personally I'm in favour of options A & B

 
End of rant ... for now!!

As always your mileage may vary, and I really REALLY hope it does!!

[EZ822]

It's a shame your having so much trouble with your CS4. Over the years I've had various LM models and have not had any issues with QC what so ever. I currently own 2 Juice models, the S2 and the Pro. I agree that the can opener and awl are poorly designed and LM could have done better. I honestly think you got a lemon. Why don't you send it back  to LM under warranty and have them send you a new one and if you feel that the QC still sucks you can always sell or trade it.

[AimlessWanderer]

It's a shame your having so much trouble with your CS4. Over the years I've had various LM models and have not had any issues with QC what so ever. I currently own 2 Juice models, the S2 and the Pro. I agree that the can opener and awl are poorly designed and LM could have done better. I honestly think you got a lemon. Why don't you send it back  to LM under warranty and have them send you a new one and if you feel that the QC still sucks you can always sell or trade it.

OK, a good sleep and a couple of fried egg butties later, and I've decided to email LM for their comments.

I'm not prepared to start spending further cash on P&P etc to risk being further disappointed until I've heard what they have to say for themselves and their products. I am going to point out that I actually want to like, trust, and be inspired by their products. I'm going to tell them how the Juice line in my opinion could have been the epitome of pocket tools. I'm also going to be clear and level headed about my feelings with what I have actually experienced so far.

I'll keep you guys informed 

[Zed]

very cool comparison  i do like the look of the not tested here wenger grip, one on my ever growing list ,

[AimlessWanderer]

very cool comparison  i do like the look of the not tested here wenger grip, one on my ever growing list ,

Thanks Zed 

I'm pretty sure there are reviews of the wengergrip here somewhere ... possibly in the main MTO pages or on the wiki. I fell lucky and grabbed the last one from Heinnie, but they do pop up here on the trade section from time to time. I've got the pocketgrip too now (thanks donvito) but the bigger brother wins out for me so far.

[Aloxfan]

Nice review.  I caught something interesting, about you favoring the Wenger can opener design over the Vic design.  This is interesting, since I have read about a lot of people who find the Vic setup to be the best.  I have used my Vic can openers and though they work very well, I usually just break out a Swing-A-Way!  I need to put my Wenger can opener to the test today, to see how it compares.  I actually like the Wenger can opener design as it sort of works as a rough blade for random tearing/cutting duty.  If I am going to cut open a tapped box, I always use the Wenger can opener, so as not to gunk up and dull my main blade.  I actually started using the awl's on my Vics for this same purpose.  Considering how useless the medium screwdriver is on that same tool, you may have a point of Vic just ditching that tool.  Hell why not skip them both and use the combo-tool.  I find that tools bottle opener is superior to the standard bottle opener, and the screwdriver works comparable to the large screwdriver.  The only loss would be the can opener function.  Since I rarely need it, I would be fine.

[AimlessWanderer]

Nice review.  I caught something interesting, about you favoring the Wenger can opener design over the Vic design.  This is interesting, since I have read about a lot of people who find the Vic setup to be the best.  I have used my Vic can openers and though they work very well, I usually just break out a Swing-A-Way!  I need to put my Wenger can opener to the test today, to see how it compares.  I actually like the Wenger can opener design as it sort of works as a rough blade for random tearing/cutting duty.  If I am going to cut open a tapped box, I always use the Wenger can opener, so as not to gunk up and dull my main blade.  I actually started using the awl's on my Vics for this same purpose.  Considering how useless the medium screwdriver is on that same tool, you may have a point of Vic just ditching that tool.  Hell why not skip them both and use the combo-tool.  I find that tools bottle opener is superior to the standard bottle opener, and the screwdriver works comparable to the large screwdriver.  The only loss would be the can opener function.  Since I rarely need it, I would be fine.

Cheers mate 

I'm with you on the "scoring" potential of the wenger style, and as for pitching one opener against another, it was interesting to see the LM making a neater job (once the Vic had got it started). Another member did a head to head between three openers recently, and the Vic came first, and the Wenger last ... maybe style / technique come into it To me the Wenger just looks and feels like a can opener should, plus has the ability to score through tape and be a general purpose pokey thing. While I've not timed myself with the two different brands - I'm pretty sure I'd do just as well with the Wenger ... based on my pics in this thread I couldn't do much worse with the Vic 

I've not tried the combo tool to be honest (only discovered there is one earlier today  ), but I certainly want to try one out. Bottle opening is far more frequent than can opening (for me anyway), and I'm surprised we don't see more of the combi

[enki_ck]

OK, a good sleep and a couple of fried egg butties later, and I've decided to email LM for their comments.

I'm not prepared to start spending further cash on P&P etc to risk being further disappointed until I've heard what they have to say for themselves and their products. I am going to point out that I actually want to like, trust, and be inspired by their products. I'm going to tell them how the Juice line in my opinion could have been the epitome of pocket tools. I'm also going to be clear and level headed about my feelings with what I have actually experienced so far.

I'll keep you guys informed 

Hi, I'm in the market for a Juice CS4 and the follow up posts you made really bug me. I read your review a wile ago on that "other forum" but the problem with the scissors is a big one for me. Did you get any reply from Leatherman. They always did right by me.

As for Vic or Wenger buying of Leatherman. I always suspected Leatherman to have some sort of partnership with Wenger. Leatherman uses some of Wengers designs like the spring for the scissors or the can opener (wave, surge,...). Maybe a merger I'd prefer the steel of the SAKs on my Leathermans.

[AimlessWanderer]

OK, a good sleep and a couple of fried egg butties later, and I've decided to email LM for their comments.

I'm not prepared to start spending further cash on P&P etc to risk being further disappointed until I've heard what they have to say for themselves and their products. I am going to point out that I actually want to like, trust, and be inspired by their products. I'm going to tell them how the Juice line in my opinion could have been the epitome of pocket tools. I'm also going to be clear and level headed about my feelings with what I have actually experienced so far.

I'll keep you guys informed 

Hi, I'm in the market for a Juice CS4 and the follow up posts you made really bug me. I read your review a wile ago on that "other forum" but the problem with the scissors is a big one for me. Did you get any reply from Leatherman. They always did right by me.

As for Vic or Wenger buying of Leatherman. I always suspected Leatherman to have some sort of partnership with Wenger. Leatherman uses some of Wengers designs like the spring for the scissors or the can opener (wave, surge,...). Maybe a merger I'd prefer the steel of the SAKs on my Leathermans.

What can I say  - I didnt follow it through 

I came to the conclusion that manufacturing issues aside, I didn't like the design of some of the tools - so it's pending modification. When I get some free time I'll have a pop at making it how I want it - getting a well made one would only address some of the issues IMHO, so it needs some thought and cross-breeding with other tools. It's a crying shame there aren't more options at this size for pliers based tools.

C'mon Victorinox - there's an opportunity here for ya 

[Cyclone82]

I was really wanting to buy a Juice too but after reading this im not sure, your review has me worried. It sucks because its just another thing i would really like to get but im not going to be happy with junk quality you can find on chinese made tools. Its just really frustrating when a product is ment to be good quality, made in USA etc and you end up getting bad product. Cant manufacturures understand that 99% of people into multi tools or knives etc just want something good quality and are prepared to pay a little extra $ to get a good product. We dont want to see manufacturing moved off shore or the quality lowered to make the tool 'cheaper'. There was a time when i bought a lot of cheaper tools, torches and things and the damn things just do not last at all and are just rubbish quality. I got sick of it I said enough is enough and after much shopping around i bought a Fluke multi meter valued at $800 AUD (although i sourced it much cheaper in USA) as i wanted something that was good quality and going to last rather than a cheap $25 one. So far i have been nothing but very impressed with all the Victorinox SAKs i have. They are not 100% perfect, but they are very, very good, you can hardly complain. All other manufacturers should take a good hard look at what Victorinox does.

I think you should of complained to Leatherman because otherwise they will think they can just keep selling this sort of quality to people and think 'well no ones complained so far, we must be doing everything alright'

[Gareth]

It's true that some Juices have these issues, my Xe6 has exactly the same issues with the saw as 50ft had here for example, but it should also be noted that neither of mine have any issues with the scissors.  In fact they're both rather good.  Certainly it'd be unfair to compare either of them to some junk Chinese MT, they're much better than that.

[AimlessWanderer]

I think you should of complained to Leatherman because otherwise they will think they can just keep selling this sort of quality to people and think 'well no ones complained so far, we must be doing everything alright'

I suspect for many users, the tool would actually be acceptable. I was expecting quality of Victorinox standard, and far superior design. In my opinion, these fall well short on both counts, but many folks seem happy with their Juices despite a great many having the same weaknesses. My findings are that many of the issues I've highlighted are typical for the Juice line, but people (such as Gareth) still find them go be worthwhile purchases. I like the pliers, i like the size, and i like the external access - however I PERSONALLY find the design and quality of the accompanying tools to be poor. LM's QA dept, and design dept have decided these are fit for market, and many users agree. I'll not complain, I'll just spend my money elsewhere on makers whose products I'm happier with. I'd love have a Juice I am happy with, but do not believe LM can deliver that, so I'll have to try and achieve that myself. However based on how people like these tools despite their issues, I now feel I cannot justify buying any of LM's higher end tools. Yes, other folks rave about them too - but if folks actually like these Juices, then maybe people have different expectations to me - and I'm not going to pay double (or more) market price for a tool which is not two or three times as good as the alternatives. If this is a measure of what LM offer, and most users like them, then good luck to them - but I'll be shopping elsewhere.

[Cyclone82]

I understand what you are saying. At least i know what to expect when my PS4 arrives.

So what alternatives do we have other than a LM Juice? as far as i can see there isnt an alternative in that size. You either got smaller to the PS4 or Gerber Clutch/Vise or you go up to the full size 4 inch models.

For me the important bit is the quality of the mechanical side of the tool. Eg no loose, floppy or misaligned tools. Dull paint or lesser quality cosmetic finish is not the number one thing for me and i think it should be manufacturers priority too rather than hide a tools mechanical poor quality with a bright blingy, shiny annodized covering for example. You cant hide whats underneath

[enki_ck]

I understand what you are saying. At least i know what to expect when my PS4 arrives.

So what alternatives do we have other than a LM Juice? as far as i can see there isnt an alternative in that size. You either got smaller to the PS4 or Gerber Clutch/Vise or you go up to the full size 4 inch models.

For me the important bit is the quality of the mechanical side of the tool. Eg no loose, floppy or misaligned tools. Dull paint or lesser quality cosmetic finish is not the number one thing for me and i think it should be manufacturers priority too rather than hide a tools mechanical poor quality with a bright blingy, shiny annodized covering for example. You cant hide whats underneath

The ps4 is actually well made ( I have the torx version ), on par with my skele cx. But I'm not too happy with the wave. Has some rough edges and the spine of the knife isn't finnished properly. I wish LM would use some better stainless steel on their tools like vic does. Maybe vic will make a mini swisstool.

[AimlessWanderer]

I understand what you are saying. At least i know what to expect when my PS4 arrives.

So what alternatives do we have other than a LM Juice? as far as i can see there isnt an alternative in that size. You either got smaller to the PS4 or Gerber Clutch/Vise or you go up to the full size 4 inch models.

For me the important bit is the quality of the mechanical side of the tool. Eg no loose, floppy or misaligned tools. Dull paint or lesser quality cosmetic finish is not the number one thing for me and i think it should be manufacturers priority too rather than hide a tools mechanical poor quality with a bright blingy, shiny annodized covering for example. You cant hide whats underneath

Agreed! Though shiny is very nice too if the tool works as it should  . My other options for small pliers are just SAK's or Buck Extract (Big tool with small pliers) or it's a leap up to Swisstool & Wengergrip (I consider my Gerber Suspension to be a joke, not a tool). I have got a Squirt P4 in the back of a drawer somewhere but that wasn't made well either  The file has bald patches and the knife blades catches the scales when closing (right on the edge) unless you take care to close it.

I don't have great experience with LM products   

Aside from (hopefully) fixing up the Juice, I've considered a Vic Spirit ... though heard a few gripes about the scissors not opening very wide. I'd like to hear if this is a big problem for scissor using spirit owners, or if it's just "fussy" 

The only other thing I can think of in this size realm is a Minigrip/Pocketgrip ... but they are a little on the odd side. I have got one but not cariied it yet to be fair.

[KDX]

This was a good review. Thanks.

[alpha-dave]

Great review. I would note though that the 'can opener' probably performs so poorly because it isn't a can opener. Leatherman show it as a bottle opener and 'corkscrew assist', no metal-cutting abilities implied so would probably count as tool-abuse for warrenty purposes:

[Gareth]

Interesting spot Dave, welcome to the forum.   Leatherman does list the can opener as being part of the tool list on their website so I think we are still in the clear for using it as one.

[Lynn LeFey]

I tested my Juice S2 as a can opener (unmodified), and it worked, although the initial puncture into the can was tough.

However, a few minutes of work with a file to bevel that cutting edge makes a world of difference, and turns a potentially problematic opener into a decent one.

And yes, the juice is listed as having a can opener. For instance, the Leatherman page on the S2...
http://www.leatherman.com/product/Juice_C2

After all the testing I've done on can openers, I still don't have a strong preference. As others have pointed out, the hook-bill style has a lot of general scraping functionality outside of can opening. The Vic style has the smaller driver added, and works as a reasonable phillips driver. As can openers, they're all within a few seconds of each other in performance., and opening cans is becoming less and less important as a function of MTs.

My view of the Juice vs. the Deluxe Tinker... I prefer the Vic blades, and there are two. I vastly prefer the Leatherman Phillips. I never have the nail stabbing problem with flatheads on the Juice that some folks do. The Vic 91mm Scissors beat the Juice scissors by a large margin, and moreso for lefties. The Vic Awl/reamer is loads better than the leatherman. What it really comes down to is pliers. This is an utter no-contest, with the Juice blowing the Vic away. If you need good pliers, the Leatherman clearly wins. If you just want a grabby tool (like strong forceps), then I think the Deluxe Tinker wins. Just my opinion, of course.