Cheap and cheerful???

[kirk13]

Came across this on evilbay.Thought that for £7.50 from HongKong,it might be worth a punt



I'm looking forward to seeing how it does.If it works out well might do for a few crimbo prezzies

[Zed]

looks ok for the money kirk, have you a link  or sellers name 

[Gareth]

well that is interesting, I look forward to hearing how well it copes.

[kirk13]

looks ok for the money kirk, have you a link  or sellers name 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/280730715360?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

[Zed]

looks ok for the money kirk, have you a link  or sellers name 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/280730715360?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

cheers Kirk 

[AHB]

If there ever was a knock-off...   



Let us know how it holds up.. 

[Gadget Guy]

It makes me sick that you guys support a direct copy!     Mods: This is my opinion only which Def says I'm allowed.   

[kirk13]

It makes me sick that you guys support a direct copy!     Mods: This is my opinion only which Def says I'm allowed.   

In fairness,I couldnt have told you it was a copy til I started the thread.As cool as Atwoods look,they are the same sorta price as a Wave

[Grant Lamontagne]

You are always welcome to your opinion. In fact, I encourage it.  BUT this is a tool, available to buyers and as such, we will cover it. We cover anything and everything in this market.  If Peter wants us to discourage discussions about things that may or may not infringe on his designs, then he should contact me personally and I'll be happy to set a "no knockoffs" price for him.

Until then, for the same reason as you are allowed to voice your opinion, everyone else is too.

Def

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

[AimlessWanderer]

It makes me sick that you guys support a direct copy!     Mods: This is my opinion only which Def says I'm allowed.   

Well I'm not generally one for one piece tools, but if I was going to get something like this I probably wouldn't pay more than £10 for it anyway. Atwood wouldn't make/sell me one for a tenner .... so as I see it, I wouldn't be doing him out of any money cos he wasn't going to get it anyway

Then again if I did get a cheapo one and liked it, there would be MORE chance I would then move on to a higher market version. Due to the fact that he sells out on all his items in about 30 seconds flat, I think this is probably doing more good than harm. In fact how many of us only got into knives and tools by starting off at the low end and working up? I know I did. I'd never paid proper money for a proper tool unless I knew it was right for me and worth the investment when put into use. Flip side, I've got quite a few items which were really cheap (Mora, Opinel, SRM) and do the job brilliantly so there's no need to spend big money .... again .... personal opinion 

Bottom line: Keep us informed how you get on with it mate - some of us won't pay big bucks for the elite jobbies, but might sacrifice a couple of quid for one of those 

[Gadget Guy]

You are always welcome to your opinion. In fact, I encourage it.  BUT this is a tool, available to buyers and as such, we will cover it. We cover anything and everything in this market.  If Peter wants us to discourage discussions about things that may or may not infringe on his designs, then he should contact me personally and I'll be happy to set a "no knockoffs" price for him.

Until then, for the same reason as you are allowed to voice your opinion, everyone else is too.

Def

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

Def,

No drama here... I do not agree with supporting fakes, so I will not support a forum that does. Please delete my account when you get a chance.

I feel strongly about this as you know.  Take care everyone!!   

John

[Grant Lamontagne]

Yes I know you do.  I feel strongly about not deleting accounts so you will be welcome to come back whenever you want, no hard feelings.

The wonderful thing about a forum is it allows people with different opinions to say what they like or don't like about something, which means the other member s have as much right to talk about this as you have to hate it. We won't change you and you won't change them.

Take care out there buddy.

Def

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

[WWW]

Looks good for the price! Still, I was wondering how would 8Cr13MoV perform in such type of tool. Atwood also uses knife Steel and/or Ti,  but wouldn't be better to use tool steel like D2? I'm quite a noob in this area, so some clarification will be appreciated!!

[Threeme2189]

It makes me sick that you guys support a direct copy!     Mods: This is my opinion only which Def says I'm allowed.   

I don't think it's fair for the forum to decide what we can discuss  and/or support. (specific products, not broad subjects).
If this forum would have bashed somebody because they talked about, bought, sold or hooked people up with a knock-off or cheap alternative I would be pissed off.
With all due respect to Atwood and his products, if he has a problem with these knock-offs he should do something about it, not us. That doesn't mean I like the idea of these.
Patents and such exist for a reason, but they shouldn't effect freedom of speech.
We've talked about plenty of knock-offs and cheap alternatives before without any ill effects.

But as you said, you are entitled to your opinions as we are to ours.
I hope we'll see you around in the future. 

[kirk13]

@Gadget Guy:No personnal ofense has been ment by this post,and equally none has been taken,and I do hope you wont be leaving MTo as a result of this.

Things I would say are this:None of us are too shy about grabing a bargin where we can,and I gotta say it would be cool to say I had a Ti pocket tool,but I really cant afford one,Atwood or otherwise!Nor could I aford to lose one!

Victorinox make great tools at prices for the everyman(and wenger too!).Gerber likewise,but many of us(myself inclueded)tend to slate them for thier efforts.

If it is a case of copyright infringement,then I'm sure we would all support Atwood in any legal efforts for redress,but if no action is being taken then this is on fact the free market in action!

Any one for a beer? I'm buying!

[Death's Head]

Wow, I don't visit this forum often, and I am quite surprised by the degree of acceptance regarding stealing. 
I see a few posts regarding the price.  So it just comes down to money for you?  Doesn't matter if the tool is a blatant copy? 
Another post was regarding that Peter should do the leg work to defend his intellectual property.  I'm very surprised with this disregard for personal responsibility.  "Let somebody else do it" attitude. 
So you like the price, so stealing is alright.  OK then, I see how general tone of the forum is here.

[kirk13]

I'm starting to feel sorry I ever started this thread!

1)When I bought this tool I had no idea it may have been a rip off of anything else
2)If you can aford a keyring doda that cost the same as a LM Wave,good for you!I cant!As in airguns,I own a small number of chinese clones of famous European guns.Are they theft?I'm not a lawyer,but the owners of the original designs have never sued!
3)I believe everyone is entitled to an opinion,but for smurf sakes guys!!!!

[Grant Lamontagne]

I am not advocating stealing anyone's designs.

However, this is a forum for discussion of multitools- all of them, be they real or copies.  We have discussed knockoff SAKs and Leathermans too, so why the special treatment for Peter?

This forum is not beholden to any manufacturers- it is loyal to it's members, and if they want to discuss a certain tool then so be it. 

Def

[Death's Head]

Someone one shouldn't be told that stealing is wrong.  Just because someone hasn't sued another yet doesn't mean it is right to steal in the meantime.  Right is right, wrong is wrong.  People should be doing what is right irregardless of who is aware of that person's actions or not.  It shouldn't be left for the LEO, court, lawyer, etc.  Use you're $ to do what is right.
Discussing and condoning are two very different things.  Sure, discuss the copy.  I expect that.  I also expected that most people would not be in favor of it and not go and make the purchase.  Maybe I'm just the minority here, but it was how I was raised.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I agree that people should vote with their $$, but you can't be upset when they vote differently than you may. 

To be honest, Peter could license some of his designs to a large scale manufacturer and crank out some affordable production versions of his tools while still maintaining his custom, limited run market.  The very fact that he hasn't makes me wonder if these copies are really that important to him.  If anyone is in contact with Peter they can tell him to contact me by email, through Facebook or through this forum and I will be happy to offer any/all help I can to put him in contact with a company that will do his designs justice.

Add to that the very limited availability of his current line and he's just feeding the copy market.  After all, if I want a specific tool and it's not available from him, how else am I supposed to get it?

I'm not condoning or condemning purchasing copies, I'm just suggesting a scenario in which a buyer may feel justified in purchasing a copy.  Similar to kit cars- I can't afford a '67 Shelby Cobra myself, but I can afford a VW chassis and a fiberglass body kit. 

Individuals are welcome to spend their money any way they like.  It's part of living in a free and democratic society.  And Multitool.org is dedicated to discussion about tools, regardless of where they come from.

Def

[shecky]

Wow, I don't visit this forum often, and I am quite surprised by the degree of acceptance regarding stealing. 

Is it stealing? In order to steal a design, the design has to be officially owned by someone. There are very clear procedures to do this. It's called a patent. If these procedures are not followed, then this design can't truly be stolen, since it doesn't belong to anyone.

If Atwood has patented his idea, he has a bit more legal standing. Not you, or me. If he hasn't, he can claim that the idea is his. But any copies are not actually stolen, and are actually free to be copied. This isn't some revolutionary reading of the rules. It's the way the system works, and has for a pretty long time.

[Death's Head]

Yeah, having a patent is a documented way of owning an idea, but does one need documentation at all times to tell him what is right and what is wrong. 
Teaching someone early in life about right and wrong starts at home.  And I'm pretty sure most of us do not start with teaching our little ones regarding pantents, trademarks and other lawyer related topics.
The point is, it is still someones idea... actually, it's not only that.  This particular product is an exact replica one someone else's design, not a design that was inspired by another.  And the manufacturer is now producing and selling this design.
Nobody does the right thing all the time, but I would figure that most of us who would do something wrong would know it was wrong and not have to be told the action was wrong.
It is unfortunate we live in a time where too many people feel it is OK to take an idea when they feel they will not be punished for it.  Call me old fashioned then.
Lastly, I believe that not condemning one for their actions is quite similar to condoning.

[jekostas]

I don't know, I have no problem with the Chinese making a copy of Atwood's stuff. 

They're never, ever, ever, ever going to take a cent away from him - people who know the name Peter Atwood or JD Ryan or Brian Flud or Jared Price or Ray Kirk or any of the other "boutique" tool or knife makers will ever buy a Chinese tool instead.  The more likely scenario is that people buy a one piece tool, find they like it, start researching and then haul out the wallets for the "good" stuff.

Don't believe me?  Go ask Coach or Gucci or Prada or Microsoft why they don't work harder to shut down piracy in Asia.

[Death's Head]

I don't know, I have no problem with the Chinese making a copy of Atwood's stuff. 

They're never, ever, ever, ever going to take a cent away from him - people who know the name Peter Atwood or JD Ryan or Brian Flud or Jared Price or Ray Kirk or any of the other "boutique" tool or knife makers will ever buy a Chinese tool instead.  The more likely scenario is that people buy a one piece tool, find they like it, start researching and then haul out the wallets for the "good" stuff.

Don't believe me?  Go ask Coach or Gucci or Prada or Microsoft why they don't work harder to shut down piracy in Asia.

I haven't read a post in this thread about "dictating moral values". 
Do what you like, feel what you like, and express what you like.  That's what I am doing.  I'm just expressing my opinions, and it just happens to be different from the majority here. 
I don't know if knifemakers or companies such those listed above are losing money or not.  I assume so because I have read about the companies cracking down on bootlegs and imitations.  Why they don't work harder?  Not sure.  I can only make assumptions.  Maybe there's a limit to what they can do before it is no longer cost effective.  That's my assumption.

[shecky]

Yeah, having a patent is a documented way of owning an idea, but does one need documentation at all times to tell him what is right and what is wrong. 
Teaching someone early in life about right and wrong starts at home.  And I'm pretty sure most of us do not start with teaching our little ones regarding pantents, trademarks and other lawyer related topics.
The point is, it is still someones idea... actually, it's not only that.  This particular product is an exact replica one someone else's design, not a design that was inspired by another. 

Thing is, if it's patented, Atwood can use the patent to go after copies. And after a set number of years, the patent expires, and copies are fair game.

Yet, time and again, I'm told that even if there is no patent, I'm supposed to limit my consumer choices as if one exists anyway. Which actually goes beyond the protections of an actual patent, as the enforcement is up to the patent holder, not unconnected third parties like you and me. Not only that, I presumably am supposed to honor this non-existent patent in perpetuity, a power that a real patent would never endow. Because that's somehow the difference between right and wrong.

No. I understand the feelings behind such a position. But the wheels come off when put under scrutiny.

[Death's Head]

Well, definitely nobody is going to be punished over something like this.  Of course one will do what he is comfortable doing.
I'm not an expert on the topic of patents, but are there such things as international patents?

[Seamaster]

As I see it the G3/G5 Prybaby is the best design Peter has ever done, thus I'll humbly add my two cents to this discussion.
 
First of all, the only one who should get his panties in a bunch is Peter Atwood himself. I am really appalled by the "Chinese Way" of doing business. It reflects badly on them and will catch up. That out of the way, a businessman has to protect his interests and go after such practices by trademarks, patents and lawyers. An email to Peter to inform him of this blatant theft and a vote with our wallets is all that is needed at the moment.

Secondly, some incoherent ramblings. I am getting more and more alienated by the "Atwood hype". Is he an artist or a businessman? He obviously is in assembly line production on a rather large scale. His designs have become stale. His method of distribution is "strange" and a business case all in itself. He doesn't trademark or patent. So why doesn't he get his act together? A licensing to an impeccable knife/multitool company for his basic tools and artsy, innovative tools in the current business format?! A win-win for both the maker and the many customers?!

[jekostas]

As I see it the G3/G5 Prybaby is the best design Peter has ever done, thus I'll humbly add my two cents to this discussion.
 
First of all, the only one who should get his panties in a bunch is Peter Atwood himself. I am really appalled by the "Chinese Way" of doing business. It reflects badly on them and will catch up. That out of the way, a businessman has to protect his interests and go after such practices by trademarks, patents and lawyers. An email to Peter to inform him of this blatant theft and a vote with our wallets is all that is needed at the moment.

The "Chinese Way" of doing business?  American knife and tool companies copy designs from each other on a very regular basis.  They've also been doing it a lot longer - Ka-Bar and Schrade, for example, made well-known copies of the Buck 110 Folding Hunter for years and years.  In fact, the Schrade Lb7 folder is still made to this day.

Also, if I remember correctly we had this discussion multiple times when PocketToolX (then MK7) first started showing models of the Piranha and it was being compared to various Atwood tools.

Out and out copying tool designs is by no means limited to China.  Or the US.  Heck, there are very well made German knives patterned on Swiss Army knives being made to this day.

[Gareth]

Here's my take on the issue; if I want to buy an Atwood right now then I simply can't, not without getting into the price inflated second hand market, where the re-sale value seems to be even higher than the original price, or am I wrong?

The way Mr Atwood seems to run his business means that he is never going to have stock sitting on the shelf waiting to be sold, so these copies are not ever going to make any difference to his current business model, or income.  And good luck to him, it's a very interesting and clever way to run a business.

Would I prefer it to be at least a little different from Mr Atwood's design?  Absolutely yes I would, but at lest it's only a copy and not a fake claiming to actual be an Atwood.

Do I think Mr Atwood will loose any money?  Not in a month of Sundays.   In fact, as was pointed out earlier in the thread, these could easily be 'gateway' tools to someone who would then go on to try and but a tool direct form Atwood.  If the person could get their hands on one that is.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Well, definitely nobody is going to be punished over something like this.  Of course one will do what he is comfortable doing.
I'm not an expert on the topic of patents, but are there such things as international patents?

Yes there are such thing as international patents, but they only apply in countries that are willing to honor such things.

Patents are virtually worthless to someone like Peter by the way.  A patent is a document stating that you own something and are entitled to all the rights that go along with it.  Very handy, but the reality is that small businessmen like myself, Peter, JDR, Raker Knives and many of the other companies listed in this thread simply cannot afford to enforce a patent.  It involves lots of legal fees, and that's assuming it's even a domestic dispute, which in today's world is not likely.  If you have to chase a patent across a border it costs a lot more, especially if you have to go after it in places like China, and if you do follow it that far, the company that made it is likely to "go out of business" for an hour, re-open with a new sign on the door and continue to knock off your designs under a new name, meaning you have wasted all your money and have to start from scratch.

That's a bit simplified mind you, but if you chat with a lawyer for any length of time (s)he will probably tell you the same thing.

What you can do with some success is communicate with Customs Officials in countries that do honor patent and trademark law to have out and out fakes confiscated upon entry into their country.  But, this often means they need to be direct copies, such as in the case of red handled Swiss Army Style knockoffs featuring some variety of a Swiss Cross.  As you can see by the number of SAK copies available today, this is also pretty ineffectual, but at least it means that direct knockoffs are seized and your brand is relatively protected.

I don't condone stealing ideas but it is a fact of life.  The up shot is, I can't see Peter losing any money off of this, and in fact, probably gaining money as it potentially introduces new people to the market who may purchase one of his tools later, and it galvanizes his existing customers as loyal buyers.  This doesn't mean we should purposely promote this tool as a favor to Peter, but it also doesn't mean we should condemn it either.

It is a tool and it's available for purchase, therefore we have not only a right, but a responsibility to review it.  Here at Multitool.org a tool stands or falls on it's abilities, not what's etched on it's side.

Def