Charge, Surge, Spirit or Axe? Help!

[bobofish]

Gents (and the few ladies intrepid enough to brave a knife forum)
First of all, Greetings! I'm new, a couple of posts past my cherry, and what a cool site. Oh the wonders of the internet. Now every nerd has his own nook and cranny to worship whatever he likes best....for us it's multitools, at least for the next five minutes until some of us veer off to bavarian outboard motor forums, finnish sand skiing, or whatever it is that floats your match-stick boats.

So, I've been reading far too many reviews and articles about multitools in the last couple of weeks. I've been in umpteen sporting goods and knife stores, and hassled all the largely ignorant teenybopper clerks far too much. My head hurts, and I need your help picking a tool.

I've wanted a real multitool for a long time (got myself a couple micras, tiny sak's and the like) and the closest I got was owning an old style wave from the day it came out, for a grand total of three days....got stolen, and I was BROKE!

About a month ago I just couldn't resist the leatherman combo that was staring at me from the shelf at costco. A whole pallette of those things was beckoning to me....the siren song was too strong. I broke down and bought it. It was a pretty good deal, not a screamer, but a good deal nonetheless.

It was a Surge and one of the folders with the screwdrivers...I knew that the surge was a hell of a tool, and the folder would be my edc.  I had been drooling over the charges since they came out, and now I've got a problem. The Surge is one manly beast of a tool, and has just about everything I'd want. There are a couple problems though.

First off, the thing's a monster. That's a good thing in many respects, but it's a honker nonetheless. The combo from Costco only provided me with a simple leather sheath, a lot like the old style leatherman sheathes....no room for anything but the knife, and with a squeeze, the little sleeve for the extra blade from the exchanger. On the belt, I have to say I don't much notice it, but for some reason I'm always knocking stuff over and whacking walls with it. I feel like I have a dolphin on my belt for that reason.

Secondly, the thing isn't rounded off like the charge. I can live with that, but it does annoy me greatly. But, at the top of the arms, I'm always pinching myself because the surge is so damned hard to close after you've been using the pliers....the charge has been one handed all the way for me.

Thirdly, I pinch my thumb all the time when I'm using the pliers. Maybe I'm just a jerk and an idiot, but I do it just the same. My impression is that the other tools out there wouldn't be as bad.

Pluses of the tool are many however:
Better scissors than the Charge ti
interchangeable file/saw; I have noticed that I can buy a new file for $5- how often do they wear out? Leatherman told me over the phone that in the event of a charge file wearing out, it would be a warranty issue. I asked specifically if the thing was just flat out worn out, could I buy a new one...answer was nope.  On the other plus side with the exchanger on the surge, I know I can get t-shank blades for cutting metal for example. I don't do that often, but it is handy.

Also, being bigger just feels tougher. It feels a lot more like a real tool rather than just a multitool.


So now I need to know your guys' opinion on whether I should stick with the surge or get something else. First a little about me:

I'm more towards the bookish type than the bricklayer type. That said, I love to fish, and especially I love to surf and jetty fish. I need a good plier, knife and hook file if for no other reason than that.

I have to do some guerilla remodeling in the next couple months, and need something with me that covers the task without carrying a whole tool box. I have to drive a thousand miles each way to do my remodeling, and it just pays to have something portable.

I'm always in need of a knife, screwdriver and pliers. No matter what, somehow I'm always the one that stuff breaks around.

And finally, I put my cellphone in my pocket rather than on my belt...I don't like much if anything on my belt besides my pants, but I can live with a sleek sheath. Occasional dolphin-ness is fine, like when I'm remodeling or fishing, but I really want a multitool with me 24/7. You wouldn't believe the tasks I've accomplished with my little micra that should have been utterly impossible. (I always say that micras are the crappiest little tools that completely rule)

So. After this rambling mess, I need you, the informed reader to help me decide.

I have several options:
1. keep the surge, buy the better sheath for under $10, and MAYBE a pocket clip for another $6
2. return the surge, spend about $10 and get a charge (damned if I can decide which one! Leaning towards the ti for the crappy scissors) since it's more comfortable, smaller, and already has a pocket clip and nicer sheath....when i need it I can throw a tiny maglight in the sheath which would rock.
3. Quack like a duck, walk on all fours
4. Throw the leathermans through a window and get a swisstool, maybe a spirit for less money. Great tools, but feel a little like a camping tool, rather than a tool that you could build a space shuttle with.
5. SOG pliers rule over the lot, but the rest of the tool is very sub-par
6. Keep the Surge, bite my toungue and buy something like a Juice for EDC. But that kind of defeats the purpose of a Surge MULTITOOL; I'll have to remember to bring it, etc.
7. Grow my beard out, buy some bamboo sandals and become a hermit in the caves of central asia


I love one handed opening, and I like to feel quality.
I should also mention that in a moment of weakness I bought a SOG pocket power plier deluxe on fleabay for very cheap...$25. I was originally thinking of trading it for something, but maybe I'll just keep the thing as a backup. It should arrive within the week.

So gentlemen, get to work, and help a dumb ***tard out.

[David Bowen]

Hmmm no replies yet huh? Well I will be the first to jump on board. In my personal opinion go with the charge if you want one hand opening, the wave isn't a bad choice either (and slightly cheaper). If you want small and robust get a spirit but if you want hard core get it's brother the SwissTool. Any choice you make is your own, for whatever lifesyle you live or what talks you use it for. I personally like the wave/charge because of the pocket clip. I work in retail and it's nice to have a tool on you at all times and go un-noticed to the public.

David

[Styerman]

My main EDC multitool is the Charge , pocket clip for casual , pouch for work . The Surge lives in my truck center console , It gets some use , but it's mainly an emergency item . I sometimes carry the spirit , nice unit . It has two major deffects - slippery handle , no pocket clip .

The charge is the best feeling multi I own , I also like the one handed acess to the blades , particularly the serated . The spirit will only work for  someone who carries a real knife as well .

Leatherman pouches suck and not in a good way - I use cordura mag pouches courtsey of my local police supply . A double pouch will also carry a flashlite and other EDC goodies .

As one who has played with multi's the early eighties ( original Leatherman ) , I can only say that they are an addiction and a journey with no end in site .

Since Multi's are by nature a compromise , there is no perfect multi . I believe relagateing my Surge to back up duty is probably the best use for its unique attributes .

Chris

[Grant Lamontagne]

To address your question about how long the file should last... well it is a diamond file, so technically speaking it should last through the next thousand generations of your family!

Other than that I would echo what most folks have said already, if for no other reason than to not extend the list of potential candidates any farther!  Just about all the "big name" tools will serve you well and it's a simple matter of fiddling back and forth until you find the best combination for you.  If you decide that you only want one tool (or one and a backup) I am sure there will always be someone here willing to help you dispose of any tools that you get and decide you don't want or need.

Def

[bobofish]

Guys, thanks for the tips so far. Kindof in line with what I thought.
The spirit is a sweet tool, and is certainly well made. Trouble is, it's a bit too light duty for me. Who knows...with the gadget disease I have, maybe I'll get one anyway. I thought about getting the new spirit with the clip point instead of scissors, because I usually carry my micra with me anyway.....ugh.

A final question boys, I figure you'll know. I was surprised when I noticed my new Surge didn't say "USA" on it, and I did some reading. In the process, I discovered that some, most or all of the components of LM's are manufactured overseas, and assembled here.

Then I read in I think bladeforums archives that that is not true, only some small components are made abroad, and those in healthy countries like Canada and Western Europe.

So what's the answer? I don't buy chinese products, and I stray away from most of the rest of SE Asian products because of the labor practices. What's the word on Leatherman?

[Grant Lamontagne]

As I understand it, and anyone who knows better should feel free to contradict me, all Leatherman parts and tools are manufactured and assembled in the USA and are not contracted out.  At worst, they might buy screws and rivets from suppliers who may or may not be in various armpits of the world, but the tools themselves should all be manufactured in the Leatherman plant.

The USA was taken off them because the US government didn't like them writing USA on everything.  Seems USA is copyrighted or something and they were using it without permission.

Of course, I could be wrong, but I am sure someone else with more info will come along and fill in the gaps.

Def

[CacherX4]

Def,
 
I think some plierheads were cast in Mexico at some point. Check here for some info.  I have not read all of it yet myself, so please keep the flames low when replying to me

http://tushnet.blogspot.com/2006/02/born-in-usa-but-not-stamped-here.html

Here is the basis of my statement:
"The California Business & Professions Code prohibits Made in the USA representations when the goods or any part thereof “has been entirely or substantially made, manufactured, or produced outside of the United States.” Even though Leatherman’s products were designed, processed, and assembled in the US, parts of the tools were still “substantially made, manufactured or produced" outside the United States” as a matter of law. Significant working parts were cast, stamped, formed, hardened, cut, forged, polished or machined in various foreign countries. Plier jaws cast in Mexico, which were used in 20 of the 22 products at issue, had “USA” stamped onto the jaws themselves. After the lawsuit was filed, Leatherman stopped stamping “USA” onto the plier jaws and changed its packaging to state “Made in U.S.A. of U.S. and foreign components,” but didn’t do anything about existing packaged inventory, and didn’t change its unqualified “Made in U.S.A.” advertising."

[Grant Lamontagne]

Interesting reading... gonna have to check it out again when I am not hopped up on cold medicine!

I remember a few years ago there was a huge thing about how much of a tool had to be manufactured in the US and still have the Made in the US label.  Many companies were buying all the components and having minimum wage employees in the US assembling them, then stating they were "Made in the US."  Some days I think the only thing worse than letting the lawyers come up with ideas is letting the accountants come up with ideas!

Def

[J-sews]

My take on the whole Leatherman/USA issue is that a bunch of damn ambulance-chasing lawyers saw a way to make some money. They found out that some portion of a Leatherman tool was NOT "Made in USA." Then they filed a class action lawsuit in California courts, in the name of everyone in California who had bought Leatherman products. They sued for millions of dollars in damages that these poor "clients" of their suffered as a result of being "misled" into purchasing tools that were "incorrectly labeled."

I'm sure the lawyers made lots of money on the lawsuit, all in the name of justice. I certainly feel a lot safer as a result. 

More: http://www.leatherman.com/news/press-releases/archives/article.asp?articleID=153

[Grant Lamontagne]

Come on Bob, let us know how you really feel!  Don't hold back!

Seriously, thanks for the extra info on it.  I actually enjoy reading this kind of nonsense!

Def

[J-sews]

Hang on a sec, I gotta go wipe the froth from around my mouth.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Plaintiffs seek monetary and injunctive relief from Leatherman

Loosely translated as "You made some money and we are nitpicking until you give us some despite the fact that we didn't do a darned thing to earn it."

Gotta love the "Whiney" clause...

Just out of curiousity, before I dig myself and the site too deep (if I haven't already!) is anyone here a part of this suit?

Def

[CacherX4]

I sure am not, and never would want to be.  Leatherman makes a great product here in the USA. 
Hi, my name is Jim and I love my Leatherman!

[J-sews]

I'm not very fluent in legalese, but I found this little tidbit interesting from CacherX4's link:

The court did reverse the restitution award because there was no evidence to support the trial court’s computation of the amount awarded ($13 million, 25% of the average wholesale unit price per tool sold in California during the relevant period). Substantial evidence is required to support a restitution award, and, though it was plain that Leatherman could charge a higher price for Made in the USA-labeled tools, the exact amount of the price premium couldn’t be determined with the available evidence.

As near as I can understand, it means that the damn ambulance-chasing lawyers who sued didn't get their millions of dollars.

Hah! Serves 'em right........I hope they LOST money on the deal.

[bobofish]

Still doesn't really answer the question....it's clear as mud to me now.

Calling those lawyers ambulance chasers may be apt, but without ambulance chasers, certain things would never come to light. If Leatherman really was deceiving the public by branding non-US made tools US made, then they bilked the public out of a premium. That is no way to treat good, hardworking customers.

I personally have been very proud telling people that Leatherman's are made in my hometown of Portland, and I've gotten Leatherman a lot of business. Not to mention that every Christmas, Hannukah and Birthday, the most common gift I give people has been some form of a leatherman. (ironic that I didn't have anything besides the micra myself)  One of the reasons I bought so many of them was because I thought they were 100% US made. Bushings and clips from Canada I can live with, but Chinese parts assembled by no-benefit minimum wage teenyboppers is another thing entirely.

Maybe I can call Leatherman customer service and figure this thing out once and for all. One thing that concerns me is that there is absolutely no labeling on my Surge, the folder it came with, or any of the packaging whatsoever. It seems like a hush job.

[J-sews]

Calling those lawyers ambulance chasers may be apt, but without ambulance chasers, certain things would never come to light. If Leatherman really was deceiving the public by branding non-US made tools US made, then they bilked the public out of a premium. That is no way to treat good, hardworking customers.

I've thought about this for a couple days, trying to define my position. I guess what ticks me off about the whole Leatherman/USA issue ~ if I understand it correctly ~ is that the Leatherman company DID INDEED comply with all federal laws governing what constitutes labeling an item "Made in USA."

It was only under some arrogant California statute (and there are a LOT of them) that Leatherman alledgedly did not meet the Made in USA criteria. Opportunistic lawyers in that state saw a chance to make some money, and sued. Leatherman fought them in California courts with California judges, and lost. No surprise there.

Speaking for the manufacturing industry, we have to be constantly vigilant that we don't trip over some crazy law or ordinance. Not just the local ones, but the ones that apply wherever our products may be used. Lawsuit lawyers are everywhere, waiting and watching for their big score. To protect ourselves, we pay ridiculously high liability insurance premiums. The cost of these premiums are too large for us to absorb, and so are passed on to our customers.

Now imagine how this scenario is multiplied a million times, applying to every product sold in this country. We, the consumer, end up footing the bill for this lawsuit-happy society.


Okay, sure, I do understand that the threat of a lawsuit forces manufacturers to carefully design safety into their products. Automobiles and prescription drugs, for instance, would no doubt be much less safe than they are today. But under the guise of "safety" and "protection," there are a lot of screwed up things going on in our legal system. 

[Grant Lamontagne]

I agree with you that someone should have drawn a line somewhere, and preferably a little closer to something sensible.

Unfortunately, your government and lawers don't have the monopoly on stupidity- we face the same kind of stuff up here.  Right now there's a guy sueing the province I live in because a government owned casino didn't stop him before he gambled away half a million dollars, and he's saying it's the casino's fault.

Of course, if he wins, which I hope he doesn't, but stranger things have happened, how much you want to bet he'll take the half million and blow it at the craps table all over again?

Def

[bobofish]

And then he'll sue the courts for giving him the half million to compensate the half million he lost.....and so on.

I remember once when my German teacher in high school mentioned to our class that America's national pasttime is not baseball; there's only a couple hundred pro players, a few thousand college ball players, and maybe another couple hundred thousand little league and company team players out there. And even then, most women don't ever play baseball, or care about it. That cuts out almost 50% right there.
In the course of a normal life however, the average US person will be involved in 10 lawsuits.

And by the way, did you know that there are more people in law school right now than there are lawyers who have ever walked the Earth?

Back to the point however, I keep putting off calling Leatherman. I doubt they'll tell me, but we'll see. I'd be happy to continue being a happy customer of theirs if I find out their products are "made in the USA" with the exception of a couple of bushings, but otherwise I'll just go to SOG or Swisstool. There's plenty of choices out there.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I hate to be the harbinger of bad news, but SwissTools aren't made in the USA either! 

Seriously, I would suggest that if the Made in the USA label is good enough for the Federal Government, it's probably good enough for anyone else.  And, I would also add that just about anything Leatherman outsources is probably also outsourced by most other companies.

Victorinox and Wenger are the only companies I know of that are still 100% manufactured in-house.

Def

[bobofish]

I didn't mean to say that swisstools are made in the US....after all it does say "swiss." 

What I mean is essentially I have no problem buying tools that are made in healthy countries....I wouldn't buy a Gerber even if it was the latest and the greatest, because it's made in unhealthy economies.

Of course then the argument begins if the US is actually a healthy economy....but at least I'm an American, so it's an apple pie and hardball thing.

[damota]

What I mean is essentially I have no problem buying tools that are made in healthy countries....I wouldn't buy a Gerber even if it was the latest and the greatest, because it's made in unhealthy economies.

Of course then the argument begins if the US is actually a healthy economy....but at least I'm an American, so it's an apple pie and hardball thing.

I do not understand your problem, you said they are made in your town so keep them there. If every one does what you suggest and follow what you suggest, if they are now getting some components made abroad to keep competetive they will eventualy move production abroad so you would be responcable for the loss.
Oh I use mostly Gerber because they do what I want of a tool and if they don't I can make them comply. I can repair them myself and have found some very clever engineering on them that makes me wonder about any of the derogative remarks I hear about them.
Just go get the tool you want and if I was you I would try and keep LM in your town.

Dave

[bobofish]

Well, I spoke to the horse today, and straight out of it's mouth came the answer.

I swear, if I keep worrying about this, I'm gonna have an anneurism.

Apparently, Leatherman's are the same as they've always been, assembled in the US out of US and foreign components. Apparently nothing has changed.
Components come from Switzerland, Mexico, Austria, and possibly China. In response to the question of what comes from china, the customer service rep said some of the removable bits (for the bit drivers) probablly come from China. Maybe that's why they rust so easily

The reason they changed from "USA" was indeed because of the California lawsuit. Schwarzenegger should be proud I guess.

So screw it....I like Leatherman's, I'll keep buying them. Interestingly she was quite emphatic that "nothing has changed..." so that means that the old Leatherman's also used US and foreign components. Except the Micra, it's all Portland made.

[J-sews]

I must admit, I am surprised that they went into such detail. Being so large of a company, I figured Leatherman would stonewall you or give you the runaround. It's good to hear that they still take the time to address the concerns of their customers.


.....and if it will help postpone that anneurism, just take note of where the latest tools from SOG are coming from:

[J-sews]

(lower left corner)

[J-sews]

.....and some of the latest offerings from Gerber:

[665ae]

Ok... silly question... what does COO stand for?

Country of Origin?

[J-sews]

Righto!

[Tsquare]

     Just so you know about that Paladin Powerplay tool.  When I was at a telecommunications conference I talked to the people from Paladin tools, only the special telecom/data tools are made in Taiwan. The rest of the tool is all SOG.  I would imagine even the real telecom tools are made in Taiwan as well.

[spunkyruss]

I'm not a lawyer, but I did a bit of research into this matter.

United States federal regulations stipulate that anything imported must be clearly labeled with the country of origin (19CFR134.11).  I was unable to find any labeling requirements for domestically produced items that are sold in the United States.

My conclusion is that a lack of any country of origin labeling on an item for sale in the United States indicates that the item was domestically produced.



19CFR134.11
Country of origin marking required.

Unless excepted by law, section 304, Tariff Act of 1930, as amended (19 U.S.C. 1304), requires that every article of foreign origin (or its container) imported into the United States shall be marked in a conspicuous place as legibly, indelibly, and permanently as the nature of the article (or container) will permit, in such manner as to indicate to an ultimate purchaser in the United States the English name of the country of origin of the article, at the time of importation into the Customs territory of the United States. Containers of articles excepted from marking shall be marked with the name of the country of origin of the article unless the container is also excepted from marking.

[bobofish]

Well, that would explain why my Surge had no labeling of country of origin. Guess they're "mostly USA."

Good find.