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84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods

us Offline WoodMan

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84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
on: November 11, 2012, 04:49:08 PM
I’m a longtime SAK user, more recently a collector, and even more recently become interested in modding.  So far my “modding “ has been limited to disassembly/cleaning/reassembly of various knives.  However, I am interested in doing actual mods and a recent thread caught my interest and led me to post here for the first time: http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,40593.0.html.

In this thread, the assertion (Reply #8) was made that if you want to use the combo tool in a 91mm mod and use all new parts, a Compact is required as the donor.  This solution, of course, is a relatively expensive proposition.  So, in the next reply, an important question was asked, but never answered (as far as I could see): Can’t the combo tool from the Bantam be used in a 91mm mod?

My understanding is that the 91mm and 84mm combo tools are one and the same.  So the only limiting factor here should be any difference in shank configurations between the combo tool and small blade.  If the shanks are the same then the original 91mm backspring can be reused. 

So, is the combo tool a direct replacement for the small blade, are minor modifications to the backspring and/or tool shank necessary, or is the backspring from the Compact a necessity for this particular mod?

The reason I ask this question is that SAK pliers are a favorite of mine.  I’m interested in creating a Special Mechanic/Mechanic Jr. 
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 04:51:28 PM by WoodMan »


us Offline WiSAKfan

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #1 on: November 11, 2012, 05:22:43 PM
welcome to the club  :climber:

the 84mm combo tool can be used, there are two important things to know:

1) the hole will have to be drilled/sanded out to fit the 2.5mm pin stock of the 91mm series.

2) the 84mm combo tool will sit a little lower then the 91mm tool would.  the nail nick is still accessible, it just sits lower.

there is a pic floating around that shows the way both tools sit.

in my mind a cheap bantam from ebay is a much better donor then tearing apart a compact (a perfectly good knife but comes with a higher price tag)


us Offline WiSAKfan

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #2 on: November 11, 2012, 05:24:53 PM
i found it



us Offline WoodMan

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #3 on: November 11, 2012, 07:05:49 PM
Thanks for the welcome.

So the 91mm and 84mm combo tools are, at least slightly, different. 

Can somebody with experience post on drilling out holes in SAK tool steel.  I'm guessing that a regular HSS 2.5mm drill bit won't work too well.  I've had good luck drilling larger holes in hard steels with a cobalt bit.  Is a cobalt bit satisfactory?  Or would a solid carbide bit work better? I can get about 5 cobalt bits for the price of one solid carbide one. 

How in the world do you enlarge such a small hole by sanding?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 07:09:11 PM by WoodMan »


us Offline WiSAKfan

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #4 on: November 11, 2012, 07:58:35 PM
i believe i used a cobalt bit to do it one time

and then a carbide dremel tool the next time.

i have never tried with sandpaper but i believe one would roll up the sandpaper and put it in drill and then sand away

i think Syph007 uses the sandpaper method to widen out tool holes for the pivots he uses


us Offline WoodMan

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #5 on: November 11, 2012, 09:44:09 PM
Ordered a red cellidor Bantam and some 2.5mm cobalt drill bits.


de Offline crackout

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #6 on: November 11, 2012, 09:49:15 PM
I tried a cobalt drill bit already. Didn't work like I hoped. Syph posted a video in his thread demonstrating the drilling using a spade bit out of carbide. A ten second job. So jealous of these bits. Can't find them here in Germany for some reason. :facepalm:
Say my name.


au Offline PTRSAK

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #7 on: November 12, 2012, 09:55:02 PM
You can use cobalt drills, BUT you have to do it right... Low speed, (relatively) High feed and coolant/lubricant.
You have to use a sharp drill and keep it cutting. If you don't lean on it enough it will burnish the cutting edge off and you bow have a blunt cobalt drill that is a bitch to sharpen because of the thick web.
If you lean on it too hard.... PING. You have a broken drill.

With the number of cobalt drills you are likely to go through it's probably cheaper to buy carbide if you plan to do this even on a slightly regular basis.

I tend to use a carbide bit in my dremel and then finish the hole with a round diamond needle file.


us Offline WiSAKfan

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #8 on: November 12, 2012, 11:05:35 PM
i remember now i had to improvise with a cobalt bit that was smaller then the hole and had to widen the hole out with that

took a while

but hey got er done


ca Offline Syph007

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #9 on: November 12, 2012, 11:39:47 PM
Lately Ive been getting super cheap carbide bits from this place.  They dont last as long but are about 1/4 the cost so overall they work good enough.  I can get 30 holes from one bit if im careful.

http://drillbitsunlimited.com/New-Drill-Bits-C291007.aspx?sid=25472

Shipping to canada was cheap, might be worth checking what shipping to your country is.
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us Offline WoodMan

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #10 on: November 12, 2012, 11:40:23 PM
You can use cobalt drills, BUT you have to do it right... Low speed, (relatively) High feed and coolant/lubricant.
You have to use a sharp drill and keep it cutting. If you don't lean on it enough it will burnish the cutting edge off and you bow have a blunt cobalt drill that is a bitch to sharpen because of the thick web.
If you lean on it too hard.... PING. You have a broken drill.

With the number of cobalt drills you are likely to go through it's probably cheaper to buy carbide if you plan to do this even on a slightly regular basis.

I tend to use a carbide bit in my dremel and then finish the hole with a round diamond needle file.

When you say low speed, what ballpark RPMs are you talking about. I was planning to use about 1200 rpm.

And what type of carbide dremel bit.  I'm guessing this is not a Dremel brand bit.


us Offline WiSAKfan

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #11 on: November 12, 2012, 11:49:05 PM
the one i have is a dremel brand carbide

looks like this, it's not for drilling but you are grinding the sides



us Offline WoodMan

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #12 on: November 12, 2012, 11:50:22 PM
Lately Ive been getting super cheap carbide bits from this place.  They dont last as long but are about 1/4 the cost so overall they work good enough.  I can get 30 holes from one bit if im careful.

http://drillbitsunlimited.com/New-Drill-Bits-C291007.aspx?sid=25472

Shipping to canada was cheap, might be worth checking what shipping to your country is.

Forgive me if I'm missing something at the drillbitsunlimited.com site, but the closest bit I see is .096"/2.45mm.  That's about .0025" under the stated 2.5mm brass rod.  If that size works, I'm all for it because those bits are relatively cheap. 

These are the ones I was looking at:
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=44&PARTPG=INLMK32


ca Offline Syph007

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #13 on: November 12, 2012, 11:53:53 PM
Lately Ive been getting super cheap carbide bits from this place.  They dont last as long but are about 1/4 the cost so overall they work good enough.  I can get 30 holes from one bit if im careful.

http://drillbitsunlimited.com/New-Drill-Bits-C291007.aspx?sid=25472

Shipping to canada was cheap, might be worth checking what shipping to your country is.

Forgive me if I'm missing something at the drillbitsunlimited.com site, but the closest bit I see is .096"/2.45mm.  That's about .0025" under the stated 2.5mm brass rod.  If that size works, I'm all for it because those bits are relatively cheap. 

These are the ones I was looking at:
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=44&PARTPG=INLMK32

I buy 0.125 size, but they do have 2.50 mm

http://drillbitsunlimited.com/098-250mm-NEW-Solid-Carbide-Drill-Bit--P2388152.aspx

They arent the highest quality, but they work.  I get more holes from a 14 dollar spade bit, but if I figure it out as cost per hole drilled I think these are slightly better.  Much better if you only need to drill a few holes.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 11:55:41 PM by Syph007 »
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us Offline WoodMan

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #14 on: November 12, 2012, 11:55:58 PM
the one i have is a dremel brand carbide

looks like this, it's not for drilling but you are grinding the sides

(Image removed from quote.)

Found it, thanks:
http://www.dremel.com/en-us/Accessories/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=9910


us Offline WoodMan

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #15 on: November 13, 2012, 12:04:14 AM
Lately Ive been getting super cheap carbide bits from this place.  They dont last as long but are about 1/4 the cost so overall they work good enough.  I can get 30 holes from one bit if im careful.

http://drillbitsunlimited.com/New-Drill-Bits-C291007.aspx?sid=25472

Shipping to canada was cheap, might be worth checking what shipping to your country is.

Forgive me if I'm missing something at the drillbitsunlimited.com site, but the closest bit I see is .096"/2.45mm.  That's about .0025" under the stated 2.5mm brass rod.  If that size works, I'm all for it because those bits are relatively cheap. 

These are the ones I was looking at:
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=44&PARTPG=INLMK32

I buy 0.125 size, but they do have 2.50 mm

http://drillbitsunlimited.com/098-250mm-NEW-Solid-Carbide-Drill-Bit--P2388152.aspx

They arent the highest quality, but they work.  I get more holes from a 14 dollar spade bit, but if I figure it out as cost per hole drilled I think these are slightly better.  Much better if you only need to drill a few holes.

Isn't .125" way too big?  I would think a bit that much oversized would result in a lot of play in the tool.

On a related note, what speed do you run the drill press at with the carbide bit?


ca Offline Syph007

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #16 on: November 13, 2012, 12:07:22 AM
Lately Ive been getting super cheap carbide bits from this place.  They dont last as long but are about 1/4 the cost so overall they work good enough.  I can get 30 holes from one bit if im careful.

http://drillbitsunlimited.com/New-Drill-Bits-C291007.aspx?sid=25472

Shipping to canada was cheap, might be worth checking what shipping to your country is.

Forgive me if I'm missing something at the drillbitsunlimited.com site, but the closest bit I see is .096"/2.45mm.  That's about .0025" under the stated 2.5mm brass rod.  If that size works, I'm all for it because those bits are relatively cheap. 

These are the ones I was looking at:
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=44&PARTPG=INLMK32

I buy 0.125 size, but they do have 2.50 mm

http://drillbitsunlimited.com/098-250mm-NEW-Solid-Carbide-Drill-Bit--P2388152.aspx

They arent the highest quality, but they work.  I get more holes from a 14 dollar spade bit, but if I figure it out as cost per hole drilled I think these are slightly better.  Much better if you only need to drill a few holes.

Isn't .125" way too big?  I would think a bit that much oversized would result in a lot of play in the tool.

On a related note, what speed do you run the drill press at with the carbide bit?

I use 1/8 pivots so I drill out everything to 0.125.

On my drill press I have the belt on the middle of the pulley stack, sorry I dont know what speed that is.
PM me or email sakmodder [at] gmail . com if you are looking for custom SAK work.

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us Offline WiSAKfan

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #17 on: November 13, 2012, 12:09:17 AM
i use 3/32 which is common here in the states. 

the pivots syph007 uses are larger then the pin stock.


us Offline WoodMan

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #18 on: November 13, 2012, 12:18:58 AM
i use 3/32 which is common here in the states. 

the pivots syph007 uses are larger then the pin stock.

Ah, because he's modding alox, not cellidor, knives?


us Offline WiSAKfan

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #19 on: November 13, 2012, 12:24:04 AM
he's using pivots instead of pins.  it's not really anything to do with alox or cellidor, i may be wrong but i think one could use pivots for either  EDIT provided you can drill out backside tools enough to use a pivot there

 just a quick pic i found of his to show:

« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 12:26:10 AM by WiSAKfan »


hr Offline enki_ck

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Re: Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #20 on: November 13, 2012, 12:32:36 AM
Lately Ive been getting super cheap carbide bits from this place.  They dont last as long but are about 1/4 the cost so overall they work good enough.  I can get 30 holes from one bit if im careful.

http://drillbitsunlimited.com/New-Drill-Bits-C291007.aspx?sid=25472

Shipping to canada was cheap, might be worth checking what shipping to your country is.

Forgive me if I'm missing something at the drillbitsunlimited.com site, but the closest bit I see is .096"/2.45mm.  That's about .0025" under the stated 2.5mm brass rod.  If that size works, I'm all for it because those bits are relatively cheap. 

These are the ones I was looking at:
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=44&PARTPG=INLMK32

I buy 0.125 size, but they do have 2.50 mm

http://drillbitsunlimited.com/098-250mm-NEW-Solid-Carbide-Drill-Bit--P2388152.aspx

They arent the highest quality, but they work.  I get more holes from a 14 dollar spade bit, but if I figure it out as cost per hole drilled I think these are slightly better.  Much better if you only need to drill a few holes.

Thanks for that link. :salute: Bookmarked.


us Offline WoodMan

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #21 on: November 13, 2012, 01:28:00 AM
he's using pivots instead of pins.  it's not really anything to do with alox or cellidor, i may be wrong but i think one could use pivots for either  EDIT provided you can drill out backside tools enough to use a pivot there
 

Wouldn't there be a problem with the pivot screws bearing on the cellidor instead of alox?

I'm interested in this idea.  Can someone who has modded a cellidor knife with pivots instead of brass rods post on this concept?


us Offline WiSAKfan

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #22 on: November 13, 2012, 02:22:54 AM
http://forum.multitool.org/index.php?topic=36983.0

i found this thread with Syph007 says to just go with peening with cellidor since it's covered up anyways.  a lot more work to drill everything out.

good luck


us Offline tattoosteve99

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84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #23 on: November 13, 2012, 02:31:10 AM
If you have a drill press use either 2 flute or 4 flute carbide end mills. I use 2.5 and 3.0mm sizes. They can be bought on evilbay for about $7. I have 6 and only broke one so far( my fault). Get carbide with titanium nitride coating, that's what's recommended for hardened stainless steel.
If I remember correctly, wait, what was I saying?


au Offline PTRSAK

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #24 on: November 13, 2012, 03:20:58 AM

When you say low speed, what ballpark RPMs are you talking about. I was planning to use about 1200 rpm.

And what type of carbide dremel bit.  I'm guessing this is not a Dremel brand bit.

the chart I'm looking at says 50sf/m so...  (for example) 1/8 drill = approx 0.4 inch circumference or 30 revs per foot. 30 x 50 = 1500rpm.

No idea what brand my carbide bits are, I was "gifted" them when I did a home job for the tool storeman at a previous employer.  :whistle:
They are 1/8" and I have Ball, Straight (round end), Straight (square end) and Tapered, with 3 or 4 of each.


us Offline WoodMan

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #25 on: November 14, 2012, 01:42:59 AM
Thanks for all the advice.

Ordered a 2.5mm end mill off ebay and the 2.5mm solid carbide drill bits that Syph007 recommended.


ca Offline Syph007

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #26 on: November 14, 2012, 01:49:23 AM
Those cheap bits are fine for a couple dozen holes at least.   I find end mills to be pretty bad drill bits when used in a drill press, but they would be fine in a mill.  A drill is a poor mans mill, and if you dont use a drill bit the hole wont self center.  Might not be noticable, but in things that I do like drilling out scales and springs a milling bit would be bad, its important to have the hole exactly on center and a drill bit will do that on its own. 

Oh and cutting oil is a must.  :D
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us Offline WoodMan

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #27 on: November 14, 2012, 02:05:36 AM
Those cheap bits are fine for a couple dozen holes at least.   I find end mills to be pretty bad drill bits when used in a drill press, but they would be fine in a mill.  A drill is a poor mans mill, and if you dont use a drill bit the hole wont self center.  Might not be noticable, but in things that I do like drilling out scales and springs a milling bit would be bad, its important to have the hole exactly on center and a drill bit will do that on its own. 

Oh and cutting oil is a must.  :D

I was planning to first chuck up a regular 2.2mm (that is the hole size on an 84mm combo tool, isn't it?) drill bit and use that to accurately locate/clamp-up the part.  Then remove the regular drill bit, install the larger 2.5mm bit or end mill, and drill.  Hopefully, that technique will get me exactly on center.

In any case, I'm going to try the bits you recommended, first.


ca Offline Syph007

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #28 on: November 14, 2012, 02:13:55 AM
You'll need to polish the inside of the hole, and its tiny.  I just tightly roll up a small piece of sandpaper and use it in a cordless drill to sand. It seems an odd solution, but it really works well.
PM me or email sakmodder [at] gmail . com if you are looking for custom SAK work.

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us Offline Mike 56

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Re: 84/91mm Combo Tool in Mods
Reply #29 on: November 17, 2012, 06:22:54 PM
I have drilled quite a few 84mm combo tools. I use cheap 7/32 drill bits i buy at Walmart. Heat is the enemy i run my drill press as slow i can. When the bit gets starts to get hot i let it cool some drilling more. It is slow but it works. I tried using oil while drilling but then my bits did not cut very well. Using charcoal lighter fluid worked pretty good it helped keep the bit cool and it still cut well. Just go slow.
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