Ontario Knife Company MIGHT BE Suing RAT Cutlery

[Splat]

Didn't know where to post this so mods do your thang if ya need to.  I just read this over at BF in the RAT Cutlery forum and feel bad for the guys so I wanted to get the word out..... This was posted by Jeff/RAT Cutlery:

"I'm sort of reluctant to add this thread but I've received several phone calls from customers and also one from someone in NY saying the rumor is Ontario Knife Co. is planning on suing RAT Cutlery. The bottom line to all of this is we like Ontario. They're a good company. They have done well with the Ontario RAT line and we wish them continued success in what they do. Our contract with Ontario was over a long time ago. We are no under any contract with Ontario in any fashion. I do know that they filed paperwork with the Patent and Trademark Office on February 28, 2008 claiming ownership of the name "TAK 1" and "RTAK" As you all know the name RTAK goes back to the Newt Livesay Wicked Knife Co. days...long before Ontario. But that's really not an issue to us even though it is our intellectual property - in the same way we retained ownership of all our designs.

Mike and I both have tried to call Ontario and email them asking them what's going on and what's up with the rumor but no one will speak to us or email us. With that said, we haven't been served any papers either so I'm thinking that this whole business of getting sued is simply rumor since I'm not sure what they could even sue us for. Anyway, just know that RAT Cutlery is forging ahead and plan to be in this game for a long time to come. I know one of the dealers who emailed me was sort of worried since he planned on doing some advertising on RAT Cutlery. We have too much invested to quit now

One last thing, since Ontario refuses to communicate with us in any fashion, any Ontario RAT warranty work will have to go directly to them and not through us until things change and everyone gets happy again.


Well, Nick Trbovich Jr., CEO of Ontario just called me right after I posted this. They do have letters headed our way from their attorneys. What Nick told me on the phone is he wanted us to quit using the name RAT Cutlery and basically design for them since they had "so much time" invested in us. I thought we were going to be able to reach an agreement on the phone without having lawyers get involved but when he said we had to quit using the name RAT Cutlery, I told him no way. We have been known as RAT since our beginnings in 1997. I asked him how he felt going after a small company like this and he told me that he had to worry about his stock holders and employees. I'm pissed right now. I friggin' can't believe that a huge company like Ontario is going to sue a little piss-ant company like RAT Cutlery just when it's getting started. There is no way RAT Cutlery has the funding to defend against a long, drawn-out court battle such as this may be. Nick knows that and knows he can crush us with such frivolous suits."

To me this smells of greed, pure and simple. If this goes all the way I won't be buying an OKC product in the future.

[Grant Lamontagne]

That's what the knife industry is all about.  One pile of bs piled on top of another, and this is why I like the tool industry, and have concerns about the direction the multitool industry is going.

Def

[ducktapehero]

I'm in the process of emailing them and letting them know I will boycott them until they stop this.

[Tsquare]

     Post how we can send them an email and let them know what we think.  He may have to answer to shareholders but if we the consumer do not buy their products they will have bigger problems.  For those like myself who have spent literally thousands maybe even ten thousand plus in knives that may provide a substantial loss in income.  I let my wallet talk loud and clear for me on subjects such as this. 

[ducktapehero]

I just used this link from their homepage. It may not be the "right " place but I figure it'll be seen. knifesales@ontarioknife.com

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

That's bloody disgusting behaviour, and typical of big business these days

Right I'll compose a smurfty email and send it too the addy DTH used, if anyone finds a different email addy could they make it known in this thread please.

[Splat]

knifesales@ontarioknife.com  appears to be the only email addy I can find on their site so that's the one to use. They have received many complaints/emails about this so hopefully these idiots will smarten up and drop this crap.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Lets remember a couple of important things here- so far we only have one side of the story, and there is also no legal action being taken as of yet.  Who knows, there may be much more to the story that could make a huge difference in how we see the situation. 

Best to perhaps do a little more digging before writing nasty messages.

Def

[Tsquare]

     Well said lets see what comes out.  Get both sides of the story and then see what to do.

[ducktapehero]

Lets remember a couple of important things here- so far we only have one side of the story,

I think from his post it's obvious what is happening. Big company is trying to have its way with small company. There's very little that the little company can do to the big company, OTOH the big company just seems to be trying to get rid of any competition and sometimes dragging them to court is cheaper than other methods.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Yeah, I agree it looks like a good old fashioned butt humping, but again, there certainly could be something more to the story.  I just figure if we want to crucify and roast a company, we should know all the details and crucify and roast them for what they di, not just a blanket dislike.

Some time ago I worked a similar case where a big company seemed like it was reaming a little company.  The little company certainly spun it that way, but in fact, the big company had been floating loans to the little company, to the tune of two and a half times what the little company was worth.  In the end, the only way for the big company to recover their losses and keep the little company in business was to absorb them.  I'm not saying that's happening here, just pointing out that in a potentially legal matter, there's always more to the story than what one side is letting on.

Def

[jock1]

Yeah, I agree it looks like a good old fashioned butt humping, but again, there certainly could be something more to the story.  I just figure if we want to crucify and roast a company, we should know all the details and crucify and roast them for what they di, not just a blanket dislike.

Some time ago I worked a similar case where a big company seemed like it was reaming a little company.  The little company certainly spun it that way, but in fact, the big company had been floating loans to the little company, to the tune of two and a half times what the little company was worth.  In the end, the only way for the big company to recover their losses and keep the little company in business was to absorb them.  I'm not saying that's happening here, just pointing out that in a potentially legal matter, there's always more to the story than what one side is letting on.

Def

You have a point my tutor constable told me "Remember nobody tells the whole truth"

[parnass]

You have a point my tutor constable told me "Remember nobody tells the whole truth"

There are 3 sides to every story.

[cgk]

This is just great.  I was hoping to get a Rat knife but will now have to wait to see who they will be producing under...I will not give my money to Ontario, if like Def points out, its true.

[Splat]

Here's the link to the BladeForums thread started by Jeff, owner of RAT Cutlery: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=540826  or TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/2sun3p

[Grant Lamontagne]

If it's true, you bring the ropes, I'll bring the shovels and we'll settle it the old fashioned way!   

It also wouldn't surprise me if it was- knife companies can be very cut throat (no pun intended) in the way they deal with each other.  I can think of several companies that became quite successful by screwing others over- hell if half of what I knew about many of the bigger companies was public knowledge, these guys would be living in cardboard boxes and no one would let them near so much as a plastic knife from McDonalds!

Like the one guy who screwed over many traditional companies to the point where he has to import materials because no one in the US will deal with him.  Or the "Black Bag Spec Ops" former ninja who has no military record, official or otherwise, but does have a significant criminal record.  Or the company that ripped off another company's designs and marketed them with such a cheesy story that even Tactical Tommy was blushing.  Or the custom knife maker that is selling Becker Necker copies for $180, when the originals can be had for well under $50.  Or the guys that charge $500 for a slab of tool steel with micarta slabs bolted to one end for a handle.  Or the guys that wave Old Glory around, but even the flag they are carrying says "Made in China" on it.

As much as this sucks, whether it's legitimate or not, it's really just one more chapter in the rectal exam of the knife industry.

If any tool manufacturers are reading this, and I know you are, please do not ever conduct your business this way.  I know the multitool industry has long been seen as a subset of the knife industry, but it doesn't have to be that way.  Don't make the mistakes the knife people have- we're better than that!

Def

[Anthony]

I've read a few posts on this board an others, and this lawsuit doesn't jive...is RAT cutlery taking that big of a chunk out of Ontarios' sales that they have to do this?  Doesn't Ontario know what kind of backlash this will (and has) created against them?

Or better yet, why can't Ontario design and sell a great knife, with great materials, at a great price and COMPETE with other manufacturers without trying to knock them down?

[Grant Lamontagne]

I wish I had an answer... but that kind of thing just makes me wonder if there's a hell of alot more to the story we don't know!

Def

[bobofish]

Of course you never know the whole story. It's possible the whole story will not come out; in such a situation there is usually a settlement.

It boggles my mind when I think of how people can't just make a fair living. I mean what's wrong with just making ENOUGH money? Didn't peoples' mothers teach them not to cheat other people?

[Dtrain]

Seems to me that Ontario had a hit with the RAT line and does not want to lose the buisness ,or if the word I am going to use is correct "Cachet" of having a line of knives designed by a noted survival authority.But if Jeff Randall started Rat Cutlery then had Ontario make his products he has every right to take his name,designs anywhere he wants to.I guess it would be different if they paid him to design and endorse the knives,but from my understanding
they did not.It seems like cutlery companies have gotten to the point that the attitude is "I dont care if it is your ball,you can go home but we are keeping it".

Sad thing is if it goes to court the guy with the most money and lawyers usually wins.

I cannot for the life of me see what Ontario's problem is.They sure as hell have a pretty big share of the Govt. contract market lined up.I am quite sure that their knives are also marketed heavily in the Post Exchange System as well.

What really burns me about this is that the general public will not have a clue of the shennanigans that they are pulling when making a purchase of an Ontario knife.

I always thought that the ASEK knife they came out with as a potential replacement for the Airman's Survival
knife was pretty neat.I definetley will not be buying one now.

Just my 2 cents,hope my comments were not off mark.

Dtrain

[Grant Lamontagne]

Just my 2 cents,hope my comments were not off mark.

Wouldn't be much of a forum if we dictated what folks could and could not say, now would it?

Def

[Dtrain]

Apreciate it.Would one of the other companies you spoke of be run by a PT Banum type in CA.

Dtrain

[Grant Lamontagne]

As much as folks like to poke fun at Lynn Thompson, he's quite normal by many knife company standards.  And, scary enough, while I do have some interesting CS stories, I wasn't referring to them at all in my previous post!

The knife industry is really, really nasty.

Def

[Anthony]

How about Ontario puts their feelers out and askes another knife designer to collaborate with them to produce an affordable (but still high end) survival knife.  They hit the bullseye with the RAT line, but the contract is over as far as we know, and there are lots of really good designs out there they can mass produce from other makers.

[Grant Lamontagne]

That's possible, but potentially more costly to either build a new model or potentially have it flop.  Safer to go with a proven design.  Plus, there's the possibility that any large and lucrative contracts will leave Ontario and go to RAT (or whoever RAT contracts to mass produce the next batch) which could leave Ontario in sad shape.

Def

[Dtrain]

As much as folks like to poke fun at Lynn Thompson, he's quite normal by many knife company standards.  And, scary enough, while I do have some interesting CS stories, I wasn't referring to them at all in my previous post!

The knife industry is really, really nasty.

Def

Cool, I had a Cold Steel Tanto when I was in the Army.I got it at a good price and unfortunatley due to the shennanigans of my 1st wife I had to part with it due to financial reasons.I ended up selling it to another soldier who was deploying to Desert Storm.I got what I paid for it so it was not a loss.The few times I took it to the field
the knife performed as advertised.The reason the soldier I sold it to wanted it was he rembered me jamming it thru an ammo can when I was "Showing Off" translation "Bieng Stupid".

Other than a few scratches and a quick trip to my Diamond Rod the knife was no worse for wear.I just watched CS
latest "Proof" DVD.He definetley believes in the products he sells.I am contemplating a 6" Voyager when our Stimulus
check comes in.Seeing what his Tantos go for today I wish I had never sold mine.I paid 80 bucks for it at a SportsShow in Columbia SC.I hope no one thought that my PT Barnum comment was meant as an insult.

I recently sent CS a question concerning the 6" Voyager and 6" TI-Lite.I ended up recieving an E-Mail back from Lynn Thompson himself with my answer.So at least to me that says that he takes his products and customer base
seriously.

Dtrain

[Grant Lamontagne]

I guess you don't want to see this then:





Lynn Thompson may be a bit over the top, but you are right, he seems to give a poop about the people who buy the knives.  And, the products are good, and the prices are reasonable.  Yeah, I disagree with some of the stuff they do (Grohmann Ripoff anyone?  ) but overall, they are one of the most respectable companies out there.  One thing about Lynn- he puts his rep on the line with every video, announcement, article etc that he does.  Imagine what would happen if he submitted blades for a cutting contest or extreme sport and it failed?  They do everything loud and proud, and have earned the right.  Their stuff is just GOOD.

When the PROOF vid was originally issued it was over the top- but it was also soon copied.  Maybe not to the extent that CS did it, but I remember seeing ads in TK magazine for a knife that was so sturdy the manufacturer had used a steam hammer to pound it through 1/4" tread plate steel with no damage to a tip.  While I can't see myself often needing to pierce a car hood, (although I have been in that situation a few times, but that's a story for another time!) I see myself being in a position to use a steam hammer on tread plate even less often.  There's a thin line between demonstrating the usefulness and durability of a blade and being a complete mall ninja about it.  Marketing your knives as being able to pound through tread plate, or having special grooves to control blood spray shows that someone has seen too many Monty Python movies and too little of the world at large.

The Voyager line up is pretty impressive.  I had one of the first ones and was very happy with it, and I've heard they have gotten much better since then.  make sure to let us know how you get on with it when it arrives!    Which version are you going for?

Def

[Dtrain]

I am thinking about the XL version with the 6" blade.I really do not have a need for it but I think it looks cool,It reminds me of the knife Mick Dundee carried on the movie studio tour with his son.Lynn Thompson said that this was the model he carries daily.I think it would be a hell of a hunting/fishing knife.Easy to keep folded in the pocket and not have to worry about it punching through a sheath.I am not too sure how Ohio looks at it though.I have heard stories about an OHT bieng too long,but have never had a prob with my 4" Ambush.I guess it is all on how u carry/use/conduct yourself

dtrain

[Grant Lamontagne]

I had the 5" partially serrated tanto version.  It was borrowed and never returned.

Before that though I really liked that knife and I've often thought of replacing it with the Gunsite model, but nowadays I look at the cost of tactical knives and think I could have 3 SAKs for that, so I just don't bother.

Good knife though!

Def