Lameness in my 2 year old Dog...Advice?

[bobofish]

Need some help here figuring out what's up with my pup. Sorry if this is a bit long, but I want to get all the details in that I can.

He's been having some intermittent lameness in mostly his back legs. Sometimes it'll be a front leg, usually if I remember right the front left. The odd thing is that it comes and goes. Sometimes it's just barely noticeable in some stiff walking, and sometimes like last Sunday he bunny hops around like a very old dog. It seems to happen after he's been sitting down or laying down for a long time. For example on Sunday we were at Costco for a while, and then we get some hotdogs before they close, and by the time we're done with the dogs the parking lot's mostly empty and we let the pup out to "fertilize" the bushes.

He's a 46 pound spaniel mix. About 3/4 cocker spaniel and 1/4 border collie probablly. I've met his parents, and both looked healthy and happy. The mom seemed to be a little depressed that all her puppies were being removed though.

I've had him since he was about 7 1/2 weeks old, and he just turned two a month ago yesterday. He's always been precocious, happy and very pleasant. He protects our car and home very very vigorously, and in fact sounds like a rotty when people even look at the car. He's actually quite vicious in the car. He's very well behaved, but will protect our things ferociously, and always "flushes" strange people.

Just before New Years, he got kindof attacked by one of the neighbors' dogs. This particular neighbor is a class 1 douchebag; last year we were blocked into our place by the SWAT team when our lovely neighbor decided he was going to off himself, but off his family first. After about 8 hours of holding them hostage (none of the neighbors could get out of their houses as the SWAT guys were worried someone might get shot) he gave them up and long story short business as usual. The family didn't press charges, nothing...the whole thing just went away. So you can imagine the dog has some problems in a family like this. Very very aggressive, illogical and barely listens to his owner. Well, my dog (Toby) apparently ran up to that dog as no doubt that dog was out for a mid-night pee, and the other dog apparently attacked him.
I say apparently, because by the time I ran up, the idiot owner was pulling his dog onto his stoop by the leash, and Toby was standing their barking at the dog. I called him to keep going, which he immediately obeyed, and I thought the story was over. I'm a night person, and I didn't notice a single thing wrong with Toby. I even inspected him when we got down the block a ways, and nothing seemed out of the ordinary.

However, the next morning my wife noticed his shoulder bleeding. For whatever reason she didn't mention it, and somehow I didn't notice it until the afternoon. By that time it was dry, so I figured it was just a scratch and cleaned it up a bit and left it at that. Later in the evening we drove to pick up my wife, and I noticed on the drive that the spot was bleeding again. We tried to stop by the neighborhood vet (not our normal vet), but the receptionist said they don't accept "walk-ins." Apparently he should save all injuries or sickness for times when he can appropriately make advance appointments. Well by this point we were quite confused, and decided to wait till the next morning. The spot dried and that was it for a couple days.

After a couple days we noticed some swelling late one evening (by the way, this was his right front shoulder) but by the next morning it had subsided.

A few days later he came to me and gave me his (I think) left front paw in the way dogs do if they want you to take care of a splinter. I looked very very thoroughly, and couldn't find anything at all wrong with the paw or the rest of the leg and shoulder. This was afterall also not the leg that was bitten.

Well, we started to notice some funny limping when he'd jump off the couch to get a drink or something. It would go away shortly, and we chalked it up to a leg having fallen asleep. It puzzled us somewhat, but didn't seem major at all. Our walks were completely normal, and he was himself. He ran vigorously and could change directions and balance very easily.

Then last sunday we saw the lameness I mentioned. It was very very much like what our old now deceased cocker started to have when he was 17. I call it "old bones," I imagine it's what most people call it. When the old cocker would get out of bed, or off the couch, he'd be very stiff, and arthritic looking, and the best word for it would be "spindly." It would go away after a few minutes, but of course before he died he was very weak also, and would have these "old bones" all the time.

So of course we took Tobi to the vet. The vet checked all his joints and such for mobility, which he said was excellent. He felt Toby's belly and so on and everything felt normal. Toby was obviously not lethargic, nor has he lost his appetite. All in all, the vet said the condition was a "zebra." This means apparently that not only is it unclear what is wrong with the dog, but it may be something serious and may be nothing at all. He agreed it is absolutely not normal, but Toby didn't display any signs of lameness in the office. At first the vet thought Toby was getting up off the floor unusually: he said that Toby would put his legs under him and push up, instead of just cocking off one leg like most dogs. When I suggested to put some carpet on the slippery floor, Toby got up normally.

I should mention that a couple weeks ago my wife mentioned Toby having a bump on his bitten shoulder. For some odd reason it was very hard to find, and she would only find it when there was no way for me to look at it, like when we were driving. I finally found the bump Sunday night before going to the vet, and it looked more or less like a scab. The next day when I showed it to the vet's assistant, he actually found two more scabs a little further up the shoulder....very strange indeed that we didn't find those. It looks like the neighbor dog really pincered Toby, and the assistant mentioned the possibility of an absess or something. The vet later dismissed this, saying it was just a couple scabs and looked fine.

His claws are maybe a little longer than some, according to the vet, but he runs on concrete and cement all the time and I've never felt his claws were too long. I know what long claws look like; my old cocker had a heart condition the last year of his life and couldn't walk much. Consequently his claws started to grow out instead of getting worn out.

The vet couldn't find any obvious physical signs at all. He said that Toby, even in his young age could potentially have hip dysplatia or some kind of neural or spinal condition. When I asked him repeatedly in different ways what I should do or watch out for, he mentioned in passing that I could get an x-ray, MRI or bloodwork. All in all it was a fairly wasted visit, because all I found out is that I could Potentially spend a lot more money to maybe find something out, but he didn't exactly tell me to rush out and do it.

So he was fine Tuesday, Wed and Thurs. and then today I noticed a little stiffness in his walk. When we went to pick up my wife, he had a little trouble jumping down from the car seat, and when we got home he seemed to not have the confidence to jump out of the car. Then we always walk him a little when we get home, and he was bunny hopping and swiveling his hips a little bit but mainly we noticed that he was almost pivoting around his back legs. He'd just kind of pivot around strangely munching on grass, and I got the feeling that he didn't trust his legs enough to go down the hill to where he fertilizes the plants.

I should mention that he loves to eat grass. Ever since we got him, even after we dewormed him he munched on grass every chance he could get. We've just laughed about it saying he's part goat, but now I'm thinking maybe in some strange way it's related.

Also, on the days where there are some symptoms of lameness, my wife and I have thought about it and it occurs to us that on those days he's also somewhat melancholic. He's not unhappy or depressed exactly, just subdued and quietly cuddly.

So I want to take him to another vet on saturday and maybe get an x-ray and maybe even bloodwork. Last sunday night, we googled some stuff and it looked to us like he might have lyme disease, but the vet brushed it off because Toby wasn't lethargic,etc.

All in all I'm very very stumped. Can anyone identify these symptoms or help my poor dog out? He's only two, and I don't want him to have these kinds of problems. Especially so since he's very playful and would probablly get very depressed if he wasn't able to get around.

[parnass]

Best to get a second opinion from a qualified vet.  Let us know what happens.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I would suggest the blood work is the first place to start looking.  It is possible there is in infection causing these problems, and the longer it's left, the more damage it will do and the less likely it will be repaired.  I would also make absolutely sure I trust my vet before looking into these things any deeper- vets can be bad for taking you for a ride, but there are good ones out there.  The fact that your vet is offering suggestions, but not pushing for big, expensive tests right away is a good sign.

A cheaper alternative might be to try your dog on some anti-inflammatories like Tylenol and see if that makes a difference.  Try giving him half a pill (or even 1/4 and work up from there) each morning and watch him through the rest of the day and see if the stiffness is a problem.  You could also look at more expensive but still relatively cheap options like glucosamine.  You can get it at pet stores, but better to buy it at the pharmacy- it's the same stuff, just it costs more when there's a picture of a dog and cat on the bottle!  Even if it doesn't help the problem, it isn't a bad idea as it will help keep any joint problems from starting later on.

Blood work should be your priority though, as it should show any serious issues.  A full work up will run you about $150, but is well worth the money, and I also suggest getting it done every year until your dog is 8 or 9, then every six months.  It's a preventative measure that can help identify many problems before they become problems, and it's just as important to have a healthy test to use as a baseline against potential problems later on.

If nothing shows on the blood work, and there's no improvement on the dog, then you are looking at something potentially very serious, and you'll have to decide then what you want to and/or can do.  I would say that the blood work will likely find some kind of infection, and that is what the problem stems from.  Bear in mind, I am not a vet, nor any kind of medical professional, so I could be way off, but if it was my dog, that's where I'd start looking.  With any luck, a booster shot and a few weeks worth of antibiotics and this should be little more than a bad memory.

Good luck, and please keep us informed.  If there's anything else I can help with, please let me know.

Def

[ducktapehero]

I'd get the dog to a different vet. Good vets, like mechanics, can be hard to find.

[NutSAK]

This sounds like it could be a spinal injury or other neurological issue to me.  A CT scan may be required to find the problem if that is the case.

I don't want to jump to conclusions here, but the "melancholy" mood you mention sounds to me like a sign that the dog could be in pain.

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

My fingers are crossed that it works at for you and your dog mate

[bobofish]

Well, no vets available today. I suppose it'll have to wait till Monday.

Also, what would an appropriate dose of advil, aspirin, etc. be for a dog of 46 pounds? I'm thinking maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of a pill.

[Grant Lamontagne]

1/3 to a half should be more than sufficient- I'd start smaller and work your way up though, especially if it's one of the Extra Strength varieties.  Remember that your dog not only weighs much less than you, they also don't have the kind of chemical tolerance humans do.

NutSAK may be right about the spinal or neurological problem.  I thought that too, but at this point it could be something simpler and that's why I thought blood work should be the first step.  If there's no trace of infection then you are probably looking at something neurological or spinal.  But, the blood is much easier to check and at this point it could be either or.

Def

[Tom Munch]

My husband Tom belongs to this forum and he asked me to read about your dog.  I am a volunteer with a dog rescue group, Pueblo Collie/Sheltie Rescue of Colorado.  We have not come across the problems that your dog is experiencing with our rescue dogs, but I can offer a little advice.  First, drop your vet if they aren't helping.  I am not sure where you live, but find some good breed rescue groups in your town that appear responsible and email/call them for advice on the best vet. (I know every good/mediocre/bad vet in our town.)  Also, if there is a university vet school near you, that would be a good place to contact, as they deal with so many different facets of a dog's health.  The first thing I did think was an abscess; but there could be more things going on.  Dogs can eat grass to make up for something missing in their diet -- so this could be a different issue.  You could do some research to see what you can add to his diet to help with this.  We give our dogs carrots, green beans, spinach, peas -- not a lot and not all at once.  If you are giving any human over-the-counter drugs to your dog, that could create stomach problems and he could be eating grass to help.  Don't give a dog advil, tylenol or aspirin.  Baby aspirin in small doses maybe.  A lot of meds are toxic to dogs.
Good luck.... and hopefully a good, caring vet will help.  It will require more tests and more money, but it sure sounds like something is wrong. -- Jen

[Grant Lamontagne]

Thanks for stopping by Jen!

If you are in doubt about conflicting info regarding meds, Jen sounds like much more of a reliable professional than I am, so I would suggest taking her advice over mine:

Don't give a dog advil, tylenol or aspirin.

I have done so in the past with no problems, but as I said, dogs aren't as tolerant of these things as us.  What worked for my dogs may not work for yours, and better to err on the side of caution.

Def

[Tom Munch]

Thanks, Def.  I thought she was a little abrupt with that statement, but she really cares about dogs & wants the best for them.

We give our dogs a lot of different things like glucosamine & msm as well as vitamins & enzymes.  It gets a little expensive & I'm not crazy about all of it, but it seems to work for them.  They're our surrogate kids since we didn't have kids, so we baby them a lot more than some people would.

bobofish, good luck & keep us posted on how he's doing & what the vet says.

Tom

[ducktapehero]

Don't give a dog advil, tylenol or aspirin.  Baby aspirin in small doses maybe.

That's what our vet said to us. If one of our dogs is in pain give him a baby aspirin. A 1/2 pill if it's a smaller dog. Of course it's very rare that we ever do it.

I hope you get the problem straightened out soon.

[bobofish]

Well, I'll just check in to update the story. I'll know a little more on Thursday when a radiologist gets a look at my dog's x-rays.

It looks like Toby has a bad left hip, probably dysplasia. Oddly, his right back hip is fine; it's just the back left one. The vet didn't exactly say what the future looks like, but it seems like he may be able to have a normal life, with arthritis in his later years.

He's got to take a lot of Glucosamine, some anti-inflammatories for two weeks, and most disturbingly for him, little to no movement for the next two-three weeks. He's not even allowed to take a normal walk, just outside to answer the call of nature. I'm guessing he's gonna go more than a little stir-crazy. Apparently this will bring down the inflammation, etc. in his hip and allow for some rejuvenation of his cartiledge and synovial fluids.

Incidentally, for future reference for dysplastic dogs, the vet said that repetitive sit-stand exercises will be the best therapy along with crouched shuffling; think of a police dog shuffling along a floor, you've probablly seen the videos. Sit-stand reps apparently strengthen the relevant haunch muscles and develop strength to compensate for the diminished ball socket. When I asked if I should stretch him like a jogger or bicyclist before runs on the beach (after two or three weeks of course) she thought about it, and said actually in theory that's the opposite of what a dysplastic dog needs. In a nutshell, the problem is already looseness, and the most important thing is tightening muscle tone and ligaments, etc. So take of that what you will and can, it's a bit confusing to say the least.

For those of you who are religious shoppers of Trader Joes, the vet said that while there is nothing wrong with the Trader Joes Glucosamine/Chondritin supplements for dogs, the dose is far too low. The tablets come in 250mg Glucosamine dose and the recommendation is 1 tablet a day for a 50 pound dog. A dog of 50 pounds (like Toby) with bad hips apparently needs 1000 mg. She recommended a product called Synovi, in the granule form. The granule version apparently has a few extras that the other Synovi products (chewable, etc.) don't have, and yet is still more cost effective than the Trader Joes, in the vet's opinion. Apparently you scoop the granules over food and the dogs love it. We'll see.

I must say though, I'm impressed with this new vet. She's just a few blocks away (it's a multi-vet practice) as opposed to accross the city, they were incredibly more reasonable with the x-ray costs (literally HALF what the other vet wanted to charge for identical exam), and most importantly, she actually knew what she was doing. She actually told me the results of the x-ray before she ever took the x-ray in the form of a suspicion that it was the one leg that was problematic. The other idiot last monday had no idea. Frankly I want to get my money back from that jackass. He was recommending MRI's, Neural exams, you name it. If I'd let him have his way I'd probablly be 5k poorer before we figured out that the dog has a bum hip. The new vet said conclusively "no neural disfunction, no reason to suspect chemical imbalance or infection, no spine issues." My only possible complaint about her was that she talks a little too loud. 

So thanks for all the concerns and advice. I see this as both bad news and good news; bad because of course my 2 year old dog will now have to be carefully observed and treated for the rest of his life. It's not terribly expensive, but it sure isn't typical rough and tumble dog stuff. Good news of course in that it's nothing incredibly serious or life-threatening.  For example, while we were in there today, we saw a dog that my dog knows well, and we saw him two months ago in perfect health; today he had a tumorous growth removed from his belly/leg. 

So anyway, it is what it is, and that's the way it is.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I know the news isn't great, but it's a hell of alot better than it could have been.  Dogs also deal with these kinds of things better than we do, so while you may need to watch him for signs of discomfort, there's always my golden rule- if the dog's happy, I'm happy.  Given a regular dose of anti-inflammatories and glucosamine, your dog may well end up doing all the things he did before, with little or no sign that he has a problem.

I'm glad the new vet seems so much better for you.  My vet is great, but we went to an awful lot of money grubbing quacks before we found him.  Mechanics and vets- if you find a good, honest, intelligent one of each you are set for life!

Def