When did the Soldier switch to stainless steel?

[Mr. Whippy]

My 44 isn't.  Just curious when the switch occurred.

[J Mackrel Jones]

I have a 39 model 1908 Soldier of stainless steel, a 36 of carbon steel. The model 1951 I believe was stainless.

[Marius]

They started using stainless steel (inox) in earlier 20s.

Note that stainless does not mean completely rustproof. Any stainless steel will corrode exposed for too long under the right conditions. So me thinks you got a rusty 44 making you believe that's not stainless...

I have much seen much more recent SAKs with rust on the stainless tools and blades.

Can you show us here some pics of this 44?

 

[Mr. Whippy]

They started using stainless steel (inox) in earlier 20s.

Note that stainless does not mean completely rustproof. Any stainless steel will corrode exposed for too long under the right conditions. So me thinks you got a rusty 44 making you believe that's not stainless...

I have much seen much more recent SAKs with rust on the stainless tools and blades.

Can you show us here some pics of this 44?

 

Here are some older pictures.

[Mr. Whippy]

There is no stamping of Inoxy or rostfrei.  It had a couple spots of surface rust when I carried it yesterday, so I was a little surprised. 

[jaydar]

I agree with early 20's your 44 is most defiantly stainless ... unfortunately it just stains a bit less

The 1951's are a lot closer to proper stainless I have soldiers from 1950 with everything from a light Patina to rusted solid.

The mild steel liners can rust and stain the blades as well which can make things look rough.

[jaydar]

Very nice knife

[North Man]

hi

i just got basic knowledge of this. the development of Stainless steel was 1921 to 1934
and like mentioned above a 39 model Soldier with Stainless. In the Victorinox info it is mentioned
1951 Stainless on the Soldier.
Lovely knife pics shown above

[Pacu]

nice knife!


disclaimer - offtopic a bit

How hard are those older style saks to find? I've never actually seen one in person let alone for sale anywhere. I've hit quite a few flea markets, antique dealers in my day.

[Mr. Whippy]

nice knife!


disclaimer - offtopic a bit

How hard are those older style saks to find? I've never actually seen one in person let alone for sale anywhere. I've hit quite a few flea markets, antique dealers in my day.

Very hard to find in the US, but if you watch European auction sites, they're pretty easy to find.

[jaydar]

nice knife!


disclaimer - offtopic a bit

How hard are those older style saks to find? I've never actually seen one in person let alone for sale anywhere. I've hit quite a few flea markets, antique dealers in my day.

Defiantly findable

[Mr. Whippy]

nice knife!


disclaimer - offtopic a bit

How hard are those older style saks to find? I've never actually seen one in person let alone for sale anywhere. I've hit quite a few flea markets, antique dealers in my day.

Defiantly findable

(Image removed from quote.)

Yes, but not in Texas! 

[AHB]

nice knife!


disclaimer - offtopic a bit

How hard are those older style saks to find? I've never actually seen one in person let alone for sale anywhere. I've hit quite a few flea markets, antique dealers in my day.

Defiantly findable

(Image removed from quote.)

Yes, but not in Texas! 

Or Denmark..

[J Mackrel Jones]

Many sources refer to "the invention of stainless steel in 1921".  Here is a brief history from The Swiss Army Knife Owner's Manual:
"In 1820 James Stodart and Michael Faraday of England had tried adding gold and silver to iron in an attempt to make steel that would not rust. It rusted. Other experimenters had no better luck. Then in 1912 Krupp ironworks in Germany patented a rust-resistant steel with 21% chromium and 7% nickel. In 1914 Harry Brearley of Sheffield made a good “rustless steel” by adding chromium in the amount of about 13% to the molten iron. Elwood Haynes of Kokomo, Indiana in his 1921 paper on stainless steel presented at the annual meeting of the American Iron and Steel institute refrains from mentioning his invention in 1911 of the tough and stainless high chromium steel patented in 1912 as “Stellite”. “Inox”, which has appeared since the 1920s on knives of many European manufacturers, is short for “Inoxydable”, French for Unoxidizable: that is, Rustproof (rust is iron oxide); in German the word is Rostfrei: Rustfree. Oxidation is the process whereby a material breaks down by combining with oxygen. (Fire is a state of very rapid oxidation; bluing is a process of controlled oxidation to provide surface protection for the steel of products like firearms.)"
Wenger used stainless on some knives as early as 1919.  Victorinox's Officer was being made in stainless steel by 1921.  As far as I know stainless was not used on the Soldier until 1939.

[jazzbass]

1923 is the date I've always heard. Which is when the knives started to get their date stamps. So if a soldier is dated, it's stainless. Undated = carbon steel. No clue if this is 100% accurate, as I've forgotten the source of this info.

[AHB]

nice knife!


disclaimer - offtopic a bit

How hard are those older style saks to find? I've never actually seen one in person let alone for sale anywhere. I've hit quite a few flea markets, antique dealers in my day.

Defiantly findable

(Image removed from quote.)

You truly got an amazing collection mate..   

[J Mackrel Jones]

A few years ago the Victorinox history gave 1923 as the year of their first use of stainless - on the Officer knife.  Then they gave the date as 1921.
Looking at my bunch of Soldier knives:  a 25 Wenger definitely has that chromium look to the tools, the weird high-chrome-surface you see on some German knives of the early stainless years; a 28 Wenger has the unshinyness of carbon steel; a 30 Wenger surely looks carbon, as does a 30 Elsener and a 36 Wenger & Co; then a 39 Elsener and a 39 Wengerinox are stainless, and also the Wenger 41 and of course the Victorinox 45.  And a 50 Elsener Schwyz (? Yes, Elsener at this date, with the WK stamp) is bright stainless.  Let me find the old professor's Soldier chart and see if he says anything about this...

[North Man]

i have some important info, i have mentioned before:
Pioneering feat from Victorinox

In 1920, Carl Elsener, the eldest son of the company's founder, urged a steel mill to develop stainless steel that could be hardened. Following numerous attempts he produced the first stainless steel knives in Ibach. As the initial results did not correspond to his ideas, he made great efforts in the years that followed to further improve the quality of stainless steel knives. The quality of a knife doesn’t just depend on the correct alloy; it also depends on the precise hardening and annealing temperature. In 1931 the current ABB received the order to set up the first fully electric steel hardening plant in Ibach.

 

From then on the butchers’ knives from Victorinox gained an excellent reputation, firstly in Switzerland, then in France and the USA and later worldwide.

The development of stainless steel was 1921-1934 Victorinox have done Pioneering feats here

[North Man]

This is the Swiss Army Knife Steel today(Victorinox) I also got a good info from the Company on how it works, not to misplace any info here. Atleast it helps the understanding better, from my research it was mentioned that they used Drop Forged Swedish Stainless blades, in the 70 and 80s atleast:

 
 DIN
 used for…
 hardness
 
-1.4110
 x55CrMo14
 blades
 56 HRC

-1.4031
 x39Cr13
 parts
 52 – 56 HRC

- 1.4021
 x20Cr13
 springs
 49 HRC
 

The effects of alloy components

Hardening makes knives hard, elastic and provides them with the edge-holding ability. The more carbon the steel contains, the harder and sharper it can be made during the hardening process, but the less resistant it will be to rusting. Conversely less carbon makes the rust resistance better but the edge-holding ability worse. Steel becomes stainless when it is alloyed with at least 12 % chrome, which must be dissolved in the basic matrix. A protective «passive» surface layer of chromium oxide prevents corrosion, for example as caused by moisture. If the steel has a higher carbon content the insufficient rust resistance can be improved by increasing the molybdenum part of the alloy. Higher chromium content also provides better corrosion resistance but reduces the hardness of the steel, while molybdenum makes it harder. Knife blades made of chrome nickel steel would be extremely resistant to rust and acids, but would be easily bent and quickly become blunt.

 

Carbon (C)

Carbon has the most significant effect on the properties of a steel alloy. The carbon content is between 0.3 % and 1.0 %; it determines the hardness and tensile strength of the steel but reduces corrosion resistance. The higher the carbon content, the greater the achievable hardness (rigidity). However, toughness is reduced and the steel becomes brittle.

 

Chromium (Cr)

The chromium content is between 12 % and 17 %. This is the main alloy component of martensitic stainless steel. It gives the steel its corrosion resistance. Chromium is a carbide former. Its carbides increase edge-holding ability and wear resistance.

 

Molybdenum (Mo)

The molybdenum content is between 0.2 % and 1 %. Molybdenum is an important element which helps to maintain the corrosion resistance despite a higher carbon content. It improves the edge-holding ability of steel designed for use in cutting tools. Molybdenum also promotes the formation of fine grains, which has a positive effect on the cutting characteristics.

 

Vanadium (V)

Vanadium is added to steel for special purposes. It can be added to martensitic molybdenum steel in small quantities. It makes for a finer grain, greater edge-holding ability and toughness.

 

-

[ColoSwiss]

My understanding is that commercial knives with stainless steel are marked Victorinox, while plain carbon steel knives continued to be marked Victoria. Not sure if this also applies to military knives.

Jaydar - Great collection! 

[Mr. Whippy]

My understanding is that commercial knives with stainless steel are marked Victorinox, while plain carbon steel knives continued to be marked Victoria. Not sure if this also applies to military knives.

Jaydar - Great collection! 

That was what piqued my interest.  The 44 Soldier is marked Elsener Schwyz.  No inox, rostfrei or inoxyd  on it.

[J Mackrel Jones]

Didn't know that about Carl Elsener's 1920 mandate.  Where did you get this info, North Man?
Here is from the chart by Hans Mossiman in Schweizer Waffen-Magazin and Messerforum.net : 
circa 1915 - first WK stamping on the scale;
1921 - last two digits of the date now on the main blade: "Herstellerjahr auf der Klinge eingepragt";
1926 - maybe you can give a better translation of this: "Vom Militardepartment genehmigter Antrag des Schweizer Messerschmiede Verbandes, dass fur dem Privatkauf auch Soldatenmesser in rostfrei Ausfuhrung zulassig und mit einem Abnahmestempel zu versehen seien."  Something about allowing the sale of stainless Soldiers, with stamp, to private purchasers.
1951 - new blade shape and rustfree steel and rivet-hole on the new Soldier Modell 1951.

[North Man]

Didn't know that about Carl Elsener's 1920 mandate.  Where did you get this info?
Here is from the chart by Hans Mossiman in Schweizer Waffen-Magazin and Messerforum.net : 
circa 1915 - first WK stamping on the scale;
1921 - last two digits of the date now on the main blade: "Herstellerjahr auf der Klinge eingepragt");
1926 - maybe you can give a better translation of this: "Vom Militardepartment genehmigter Antrag des Schweizer Messerschmiede Verbandes, dass fur dem Privatkauf auch Soldatenmesser in rostfrei Ausfuhrung zulassig und mit einem Abnahmestempel zu versehen seien."  Something about allowing the sale of stainless Soldiers, with stamp, to private purchasers.
1951 - new blade shape and rustfree steel and rivet-hole on the new Soldier Modell 1951.

Hi thanks for info, I got this info from Victorinox and it is also written some on this around. I had this info on a webpage that i had before.
I can also inform that :
 In principle it does not matter where you buy the steel. It is more critical what kind of analysis (DIN) you choose that is most important for the respective field of application.

Victorinox is world class here.
I had some info before telling that in 1923 Stainless was available, but when Victorinox says the development lasted until 1934. Then i believe it was more costly, but this i can not say for sure if this is the reason for the spread on dates.