Do cheapos hurt or help the industry?

[Lynn LeFey]

So, what do you think?

Are the good brands drowned in a sea of knock-offs, and crap, or does the cheap, budget entry cost tool lure folks in to eventually try something better, and thereby slowly expand the market of serious tool users? Or something in between?

[gregozedobe]

It depends on the tool and even more so the user and their attitude towards tools.

If it is a decent tool then the user may not buy anything more as their needs are satisfied, or it might start them on the slippery slope to MT "nirvana" 

If it is rubbish then that may turn some people off MTs completely, while others can see the potential and return to buy something decent.

My gut feeling is that if it is cheap enough then more people will give it a try, where many people won't initially cough up the greater amount to buy a "name" brand, especially in non-US markets where the prices may be up to 3 or 4 times the US prices.

[CanadianLMfan]

These cheap tools only cause newbies to hate MTs because the crappy one fails them.

[captain spaulding]

My personal opinion is that the cheep knock-off brand multi tools hurt the business more than it helps. I believe people get a cheap piece of crap multi tool and hate them because of the poor quality and sub-par tools and I believe this happens much more than people searching for a higher quality multi-tool. Just my opinion though.

[CanadianLMfan]

My personal opinion is that the cheep knock-off brand multi tools hurt the business more than it helps. I believe people get a cheap piece of crap multi tool and hate them because of the poor quality and sub-par tools and I believe this happens much more than people searching for a higher quality multi-tool. Just my opinion though.

+1

[derekmac]

My personal opinion is that the cheep knock-off brand multi tools hurt the business more than it helps. I believe people get a cheap piece of crap multi tool and hate them because of the poor quality and sub-par tools and I believe this happens much more than people searching for a higher quality multi-tool. Just my opinion though.

I completely agree with you Capt! I think people will get a cheap one to try out, and it will suck then they'll have the mindset that the name brands can't be that much better.

Cheap clones kill the industry. If the average Joe buys a knockoff SAK, chances are they'll never try the real deal as they'll be too pissed at how much the knockoff sucked.


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[Yadda]

I respectfully disagree with my learned colleagues.   Knockoffs, imitations and generally cheap multi's are a sign of an economically successful model. Although it is true that some are permenantly turned off by the cheap stuff, many more start out with the cheap models and move up to the real thing.  Many people would never buy a Multi if not for the cheap tools.

[Philthy]

I respectfully disagree with my learned colleagues.   Knockoffs, imitations and generally cheap multi's are a sign of an economically successful model. Although it is true that some are permenantly turned off by the cheap stuff, many more start out with the cheap models and move up to the real thing.  Many people would never buy a Multi if not for the cheap tools.

I agree with you.  My first MT was a small $3 tool I bought off ebay, I used it for 6 months until I broke it.

Cheap pocket knives have been around for a while.  Quality brands still do well, people sitll buy them.

[dks]

Cheap tools are the industry. I am sure there are a lot more cheap multiools (e.g. made by Ganzo, branded as Bahco etc.) being used worlwide than there are expensive ones. Most people will not spend 100 to 200 Euros for a multitool (cost in Europe). Apart from SAKs I have maybe seen 1 person carry a "branded" multitool, that I did not gift to  them.
LM, SOG, Gerber have caught on to this and they are trying to produce some cheaper tools (e.g. Wingman).
We, in this forum, are not the average multitool user.

There is however cheap and cheerfull and there is cheap and dangerous to use...

[Rorschach]

Cheap tools are often a proof of concept for me. Working on a limited budget I can't always afford to buy the "real" thing right away so when I want to test out a tool I will often buy the cheap version. Even if it doesn't work that well it allows me to get a feel for things and see if this is actually something I would use. If I do like it I will then buy a decent version later on. Yes ok I end up spending slightly more in the long run but the cheap version goes into the car kit or my secondary tool box and is never totally ignored.

[Gareth]

Sadly my experience is that most tradesmen here write off all MTs as worthless because all they have used is a £5 nasty thing they bought while filling up with petrol.   The relatively high cost of a real LM means most aren't willing to invest in one.

[Taxi Dad]

all I keep thinking is "chicken or Egg" 

[AimlessWanderer]

I think we need to shift focus from the tool to the user.

Some people would never buy a "full price" tool whether they bought a cheapo or not, as they don't see the value of the tool in frequent use. Cheap tools neither encourage nor discourage them from buying one.

Some people may be curious and turned off by a cheapo tool, and not see that a more expensive one would be significantly different .... although I think those people would be very slow to climb the multitool ladder anyway. They may decide to spend a little more on a tool a few years down the line after wanting something better and eventually plucking up the courage to take the plunge. I would say I probably started off in this category, and seeing my mate get a Wave 15+ years ago made me think he was bonkers. I was happy with just my cheap pocket knife.

Some people see the value of a multitool, but wouldn't/can't jump straight in with the big money, and for them cheapo tools are a gateway and they will upgrade when they feel ready or when funds permit.

Some people will spend the equivalent of two or three good tools by buying many cheapo tools hoping to find one that's half decent, but still not be prepared to buy the big money items.

Some people just want the best they can have, and will have no problems jumping into the big brands fairly quickly.

I would suggest that most cheapo tools are bought as gifts by others, and those buying the gift only do so because of the budget. At a higher price they'll gift something completely different

Bottom line for me is there is room for both cheapo and full priced tools at their relevant ends of the spectrum .... if there wasn't, one of them would already have stopped due to market forces. The biggest hinderance that I see is buyers continually expecting to get more for less, and as I've eluded to previously, I think there's more potential harm from social trends of warranty abuse (buy a cheapo beat up tool off the bay, and send it in to effectively get a new one for 1/4 the price) than from cheapo tools

[Taxi Dad]

wise words Al
(ooow I hate having to agree with him  )

[AimlessWanderer]

 

[firiki]

I think that buying a dirt-cheap MT,  be it a clone or not, and expect it to work wonders is a sign of bad consumer mentality. Some cheapos are good enough for the money they cost and could eventually lead to buying some higher end stuff.

The majority of cheapos are, I suspect, totally not worth it and dangerous too, which can prove off-putting.

Still, it is a matter of self-conscience for me. Of course, one does not always get what one paid for. That said, I truly think LMs are ridiculously high priced here. I think those high prices are hurting the industry's big names more than the sea of cheapos, especially when the product one gets isn't nearly flawless in every aspect. Let's face it, manufacturers aren't in this business to give me quality, they're just after my money.

In conclusion , I'll agree with 50ft that there's room for both cheap and costlier MTs. Selling good quality stuff in reasonable prices is the best way to keep afloat, I think that goes for most things in commerce. 

Edit: Just a caveat, this very good topic could easily turn political. 

[AlephZero]

I think we need to shift focus from the tool to the user.

Some people would never buy a "full price" tool whether they bought a cheapo or not, as they don't see the value of the tool in frequent use. Cheap tools neither encourage nor discourage them from buying one.

Some people may be curious and turned off by a cheapo tool, and not see that a more expensive one would be significantly different .... although I think those people would be very slow to climb the multitool ladder anyway. They may decide to spend a little more on a tool a few years down the line after wanting something better and eventually plucking up the courage to take the plunge. I would say I probably started off in this category, and seeing my mate get a Wave 15+ years ago made me think he was bonkers. I was happy with just my cheap pocket knife.

Some people see the value of a multitool, but wouldn't/can't jump straight in with the big money, and for them cheapo tools are a gateway and they will upgrade when they feel ready or when funds permit.

Some people will spend the equivalent of two or three good tools by buying many cheapo tools hoping to find one that's half decent, but still not be prepared to buy the big money items.

Some people just want the best they can have, and will have no problems jumping into the big brands fairly quickly.

I would suggest that most cheapo tools are bought as gifts by others, and those buying the gift only do so because of the budget. At a higher price they'll gift something completely different

Bottom line for me is there is room for both cheapo and full priced tools at their relevant ends of the spectrum .... if there wasn't, one of them would already have stopped due to market forces. The biggest hinderance that I see is buyers continually expecting to get more for less, and as I've eluded to previously, I think there's more potential harm from social trends of warranty abuse (buy a cheapo beat up tool off the bay, and send it in to effectively get a new one for 1/4 the price) than from cheapo tools

+1 Wholeheartedly agree with this 

[AimlessWanderer]

I think that buying a dirt-cheap MT,  be it a clone or not, and expect it to work wonders is a sign of bad consumer mentality. Some cheapos are good enough for the money they cost and could eventually lead to buying some higher end stuff.

The majority of cheapos are, I suspect, totally not worth it and dangerous too, which can prove off-putting.

Still, it is a matter of self-conscience for me. Of course, one does not always get what one paid for. That said, I truly think LMs are ridiculously high priced here. I think those high prices are hurting the industry's big names more than the sea of cheapos, especially when the product one gets isn't nearly flawless in every aspect. Let's face it, manufacturers aren't in this business to give me quality, they're just after my money.

In conclusion , I'll agree with 50ft that there's room for both cheap and costlier MTs. Selling good quality stuff in reasonable prices is the best way to keep afloat, I think that goes for most things in commerce. 

Edit: Just a caveat, this very good topic could easily turn political. 

I agree some cheapos can be a real bargain, and actually be very functional items. I also agree that people expect more when they pay more. LM and others need to keep their standards higher than the rest in order to ensure that consumers are getting the benefit of their greater outlay.

That's kind of what worries me about tools such as the Wingman and Sidekick where they are trying to compete on price. Same with their one piece tool offerings that they are dabbling with. High labour costs countries will generally struggle to compete on price alone, and need to offer additional value to their product in respect of quality and/or capability. Gerber have had a real fight on their hands over recent years to claw back for a bit of respect after their foray with all the Suspension clones, and that battle isn't over. They have regained respect from some members here with their recent offerings, but they are still battling their poor reputation in a large slice of the market from releasing some bad tools in the past. I suspect SOG are heading down a similar line at present with the PowerDuo, and a few of their other tools have had significant issues reported too (knife failures etc). Hopefully they can turn it round before it causes lasting damage.

Other big name manufacturers need to recognise this too, and ensure they don't fall in the same trap of cheapening their tools to the point of being laughable, or failing to maintain the hard earned reputation that kept the consumer striving to afford their products. Fighting for the centre ground or overpopulated bottom end of the spectrum won't do them any favours in my opinion. If they don't set themselves apart as being exceptional, then there is no reason to pay the unavoidable premiums needed to cover higher manufacturing costs. If you are charging four times the price of another tool, it needs to be five times as good to make people buy it.

Some people will buy "cheap", some people will buy "quality", but it's down to the manufacturers to choose which way they want to compete. If this distinction is not maintained, then more and more people will buy "cheap". Those companies charging more money, need to ensure their prices are justified ..... and we're not always seeing that from them IMHO

[Nhoj]

I think cheap tools hurt the market because people feel they are good enough. Many people are totally happy with a cheap tool so they never progress. Luckily for me though, cheapos were just a gateway that led to better tools. Overall I don't think there is a definite answer. Although I'm sure Leatherman was doing very well when they had a monopoly on the plier based tool market.

[Syph007]

Yes.  Especially if you mean knockoffs, fakes etc made in China where its impossible to put any pressure on them to stop.

Look at all the garbage Vic knockoffs.  They dont help anything.  They hurt sales of proper real SAKs, and hurt the image of Vic when people buy these thinking they are legit and then thing the companies products sucks.

Its not just the MT industry, cheap garbage hurts all indusries.  I would rather pay more for quality, but it seems like 95% of the world is fine to buy the cheapest thing, throw it away later and buy another.  Where is the quality gone, the care to make a product that will last 50 years, a product with legacy?

My parents have a general electric toaster from the 50s.. still works fantastic and build like a tank.  Try to buy one now that lasts more than a couple years.   It just frustrates me.

[PTRSAK]

I think some cheapies have their place in the market. But by cheap I mean the gear that is still a functional tool at about 1/3 to 1/2 the price of a brand name equivalent.
I see a place for them in situations where there is a risk of loss or damage and the risk to an expensive tool is too high.

I do the same with some of my trade tools like buying a "middle of the road" quality spanner or socket for a job where it will be abused and I don't want to pound on a $60 Stahlwille spanner with a 4lb hammer.

I don't mean counterfeits or those horrible $5 crap chinese things where everything has been tumble polished for three days AFTER machining the edges on screwdrivers etc and are made of a special alloy that is actually softer than mild steel.
I have no place for them.

 

[RamoN]

Like ptrsak i have a combination of quality and cheap tools and multi tools and every one has its place.

On the multi department i have a stanley plier based multi that i thrash happily around the garage and its full of grease and dirt. Now i wouldnt use a cheap tool or multi to touch my motorcycle or cut food with it or even take it to the outdoors, but when you just need to hold something or cut something or smash it against something very dirty cheap tools work wonders.

Also most people who buy cheap tools would never pay the price of a good quality multi in my opinion.

 I hate knockoffs wether on tools or in other products, one thing is putting a cheap tool or product on the market but other is stealing an idea based on research and development by copying it 95%.

 

[AimlessWanderer]

I hate knockoffs wether on tools or in other products, one thing is putting a cheap tool or product on the market but other is stealing an idea based on research and development by copying it 95%.

+1 

[andrewnewman]

Cheap tools specifically designed to imitate a quality design and brand that someone worked hard to establish are fairly despicable. But with many things, there are nuances. Once an item becomes a "class of items" (e.g. multi-tools or multi-function pocket knives), there will be a naturally tendency to establish instances at a wide range of price points. This doesn't hurt or help, it just "is" and is the nature of a free market.

Two personal examples.

I first ran across a "camping pocket knife" when my father won one at some town event. I was a kid and captivated that such a thing even existed. I knew it to be of very low quality subjectively handling it. Two years later when I "discovered" the concept of Victorinox Swiss Army Knives, I was in heaven. Here was the good idea properly executed. I was generally incurious as to which manufacturer preceded the other. The excellent concept had an excellent execution. I was immediately loyal.

When I first saw the Leatherman PST I dismissed it immediately as likely junk. My only experience with tools that had other tools in their handles were cheap full sized tools that performed no function well enough to justify buying. The Leatherman tools were all in a single clumping bay without a real knife liner or liner lock. No way would this thing be useful (thought I). I only changed my mind when I saw close up pictures and realized how much money they wanted for the tool. Either it was enormously well constructed or a giant ripoff. I took a chance. Honestly the two things that swayed me were the small size (only a bit bigger than a large SAK) and the fact that it came with a fitted leather sheath.

So in one case the cheap tool sparked my imagination and made me hungry for a quality version. In the other case, the antecedent well made tool had to win me over because the earlier examples in the category convinced me that the concept was hopeless.

Just sayin'

[Wilfried]

I can only speak from my personal experience.

Being oblivious to the existence of Leatherman and SAKs, I started out buying some cheap MTs, two of which broke down within a very short time. The third was solid enough, but the inside tools could not be locked and so was somewhat dangerous to use.

Then someone told me of Leatherman and so I bought myself a Wave. Soon afterwards the SAKs came.

Eventually I ended up getting a member of this august forum.       

[Lynn LeFey]

Do you think you would have shelled out the money for something as expensive as a Wave before first having seen the general usefulness from having owned the cheaper tools?

[Kampfer]

Do you think you would have shelled out the money for something as expensive as a Wave before first having seen the general usefulness from having owned the cheaper tools?

NO! That is why they offer Wingman / Sidekick as entry level MT. (Which got me hook).
Below that, there are cheap knock offs.
Knock offs often have good design (copied from brand names) but poorly made, so they are ok just won't last very long. People would be impressed with MT's concept and slowly consider buying brand name MT to replace their broke knock offs. (Me being one of them)

[Wilfried]

Do you think you would have shelled out the money for something as expensive as a Wave before first having seen the general usefulness from having owned the cheaper tools?

I think I would have. Unfortunately I was completely in the dark concerning high quality MTs.

[Jothra]

I have met (and worked with) a large number of general contractors who own Waves they never use. The usual complaint is that it's like carrying a brick, and if they want a tool they'll walk over to their truck and get a dedicated one. A few of them do, however, carry a cheap breakaway knife or super-cheap little folder with them most of the time, so I guess your mileage may vary.

Serious knockoffs do, of course, intentionally pick the pockets of real companies. But sometimes the best tool for the job is a cheap one for which you don't need to hold any respect. Some of these say "Coghlan's" on the package...

[ironraven]

Do you think you would have shelled out the money for something as expensive as a Wave before first having seen the general usefulness from having owned the cheaper tools?

Intersting question.

I would say that my blades started of with US-made Camillus and Ka-bar, with Vics and eventually LMs for multies, and Craftsman or better for all my handtools. So for me, dropping money on a tool that might be pricier but meets my requirements and has a good build, with a quality name, is a no brainer for me.

BUT I also own a lot of lower cost knifes- my favorite small fixed blade is the $20 Pak-lite variant that Walmart carries. But I'd still say it is a really good buy at $40 and I've gotten a lot less knife for a lot more money. So price isn't always the determiner for me- I'll reach for it before several of my Benchmades, mostly because it fits my hand better, has belly to spare, and if I screw it up using it as a sharpened pry bar in a true emergency,well, it's a $20 knife.

Where I do see a role for cheap knives and tools is three fold. Ignoring the utter junk ones, lower cost tools are good to keep in the tool box in the back of the truck- I've got about $120 worth of Kobalt wrenches and sockets, a no name hatchet and it's brother hammer, and a $12 headlamp in my box, becuase if they get bit by a short, stolen, lost, or have to be abandoned for safety reasons, I'm not out a lot of money. Cheap-but-not-junk also is good for stashing places where you don't think you'll need a spare set of gear, but why not- I keep spare multis at my desk, at my folks, and in the toiletry kit I keep at a friend's place (but to be honest, they are all PSTs bought after being stolen fair and square by the TSA). The third role is they make good intro tools, but there we are looking at budget tools or hand-me-downs, not "cheap".

Cheap always has a place- being melted down into a better form of tool.