Do they actually care?? really?

[tosh]

]

I think the brands go with pointy pliers because it covers both bases for the mall ninjas.

Here is my most biased opinion.
Most people don't own a multitool.
Of those that do, most complain about misaligned handles.
Of those that do, most don't carry them.
Of those that carry, most don't use them.
Of those that use, most do so badly or are plan abusive.
Of those remaining, most will rather use the right dedicated tool for the job.

I couldn't have put it better myself zoidberg 

[Gareth]

As a certified tradesman who does use a MT a lot, I'm not sure how I feel about that description.

[tosh]

As a certified tradesman who does use a MT a lot, I'm not sure how I feel about that description.

What is actually your trade?? Might help to understand your MT needs better.

[Gareth]

Four year apprenticeship and eighteen years as a maintenance mechanical engineer.  If it has pipes, water, air, oil or steam I get to fix it.  I also do a good line in pretty much anything else that involves tools; joinery, electrical, plumbing etc.  Just don't expect me to hang any wall paper, when it comes to decorating I am lucky if the paint stays on the wall.

[Nhoj]

I feel like multitools usefulness is being overlooked here. I think multitools do have versatility and are incredibly useful. I especially like them in the outdoors. When you are days from civilization on a mountain or in the forest, you are really glad that you have a few basic tools on you. No they don't compete so much with dedicated tools for functionality, but they win in portability. A tool only works if you have it with you.

[tosh]

Four year apprenticeship and eighteen years as a maintenance mechanical engineer.  If it has pipes, water, air, oil or steam I get to fix it.  I also do a good line in pretty much anything else that involves tools; joinery, electrical, plumbing etc.  Just don't expect me to hang any wall paper, when it comes to decorating I am lucky if the paint stays on the wall.

So basically you're a walking toolbox??  Stilsons, wrenches, spanners, ratchets etc etc. Its not hard to envision where the MT might come in handy 

I don't really carry anything like that these days, prior to which was mostly joinery tools, lasers, levels, steps etc etc.

All I want is proper p!iers with top quality long reach drivers and a good quality sharp blade, serrated too if possible, oh, an' maybe a box cutter thrown in as well. Don't want the file, scissors, bottle opener, can opener and god knows what else they throw in to fill the spaces!!

Now, how hard can that really be??

[BigMatt]

I used to be an IT technician and now just plain site maintenance person (with IT on the side). For work you should have a van / tool belt / toolbox full of proper tools.
Multitool is just something you should have "just in case" for an odd job or when you are too lazy to go back to the toolbox.

How you can expect a multitool to "work" day in, day out. You can use the best materials and engineering available to create "money no object" MT and it will still loose with normal tools designed for a given job. For professionals time is money and no one will use a MT all day because it will not be efficient.

Multi tools aka "pocket tools" are better than nothing but will never be able to compete with full size tools. They are half way quick fix.
I'm not surprised that on a building site needle nose pliers are not adequate. But in a day to day they do help a lot. Sometimes they do get in a way when undoeing a bolt, but sometimes I have a job only they can solve a problem...

[tosh]

I used to be an IT technician and now just plain site maintenance person (with IT on the side). For work you should have a van / tool belt / toolbox full of proper tools.
Multitool is just something you should have "just in case" for an odd job or when you are too lazy to go back to the toolbox.

How you can expect a multitool to "work" day in, day out. You can use the best materials and engineering available to create "money no object" MT and it will still loose with normal tools designed for a given job. For professionals time is money and no one will use a MT all day because it will not be efficient.

Multi tools aka "pocket tools" are better than nothing but will never be able to compete with full size tools. They are half way quick fix.
I'm not surprised that on a building site needle nose pliers are not adequate. But in a day to day they do help a lot. Sometimes they do get in a way when undoeing a bolt, but sometimes I have a job only they can solve a problem...

You make a valid point and I agree with you...to a point.

I personally think its perfectly feasible to create a top quality plier based tool that incorporates a driver of some sort - either fixed or with removable and reversible bits. Plus the addition of a blade that would be able to take the stress meeted out to their stand alone rivals.

Now, are you seriously implying that that's beyond hope??  A basic tool such as that would pretty much be invaluable to many many people. Seriously, why do I need a can opener , or a half serrated blade, cap lifter etc etc on a multitool. I just think the manufacturers are being downright lazy, "let's change the colours and take some more money of  'em" like candy from a baby!!

It's frustrating that patents are held pretty much preventing anyone else from having a go - ( isn't that why victorinox was forced to buying bear & sons) yet these guys now calling the shots just don't want to know!!

[BigMatt]

All Im saying is:
Weight, compactness, number of implements, durability, you can choose two...
Also some features conflict with each other like blunt and needle nose pliers. I use my leat:-)hermans for work, lessure and outdoors and surge/charge setups are almost perfect for me, and for others not so much.

It is impossible to create a MT that would satisfy everybody.  Or even one person requirements/needs/situations.  As long as a given MT is fairly close to my needs it's good enoug for me

[Cupboard]

I use mine every day at work.

Sometimes it's laziness and not wanting to go back to the toolbox to tighten a screw that's a 15 minute round trip to do. Sometimes it's because I've gone to look what tools I need for a job and found I've already got them in my pocket. If I'm expecting to need tools and have thought ahead then I'll probably have my little pouch with me and use that with the MT.

If I'm at my workbench then I won't use it much because I have the tools I need right there and it's more efficient to use them. If someone brings something in the the office then I'll probably get out the MT because I don't have the tools next to me and it's not worth the walk to get to them.

[glorn]

I think it depends on what sorts of things one does in an average day. For me, a MT has been ideal in daily use for decades. At work and at leisure.

Pry open the dash on a truck with the large flat head.

Pull a small fuse with the needle nose pliers when my hands are too big to fit the compartment easily.

Cut the spokes off a damaged bicycle wheel so I can salvage the hub.

Use the pliers to pull back some carpet to get a look at the subfloor.

Tighten the screws the crew left loose.

Take the back off the flat screen to replace the power button.

Cut the wire off the tree root ball.

Whittle a stick with my daughter while hiking.

File my jagged nail.

File down the edge of that aluminum transition that was cut poorly.

Saw a branch off a tree in the garden that is rubbing against another branch.

Do the same, but to get my daughter a nice stick to cook her hot dog on over the campfire.

Saw a dead branch down to make a new fire poker.

Assemble my daughters toy.

Assemble the fixture after I first cut open the box.

Pull out and cut all those old electrical lines. Install the new lines and a new switch.

Cut the line on the dingy before the rough surf drowns me.

And so on and so on.. I could continue nearly indefinitely. All of the above are what a multitool is meant for. And I even use it sometimes for jobs beyond its intended use just because I don't feel like grabbing the proper tool. And I have a garage full of them, and a full tool bag in the vehicle.

If I am planning a project, I take the right tools. Always.

But everything in between is MT territory.

I don't want a multitool for the times when I need a proper tool. A multi will always be a compromise, and I don't want to compromise when I have time to take what I actually need. When working, compromise sucks because it means everything takes longer and is harder.

Real tools? Yes.

Multitool? Yes.

"Real tool multitool"? No thank you. What for?

[sticktodrum]

There's a lot of anger in this thread.... I don't see what's so wrong with Leatherman offering what they offer. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

And mall ninjas? That's mature. I'm sure my use of needle nose pliers makes me a mall ninja.

[zoidberg]

I just think the manufacturers are being downright lazy, "let's change the colours and take some more money of  'em" like candy from a baby!!

Totally agree with this. I don't know much about running a company but I can see when the passion and drive for a better tool has gone out the window. Even if they made a better tool I doubt I could afford or justify buying it.

There's a lot of anger in this thread.... I don't see what's so wrong with Leatherman offering what they offer. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

And mall ninjas? That's mature. I'm sure my use of needle nose pliers makes me a mall ninja.

There is no need to twist my comment. I was suggesting that the bulk of their sales are to people don't know what they want. Like yourself, BigMatt and glorn, I too carry and use needlenose pliers. Just not at work, if it works for someone else that is great.

[sticktodrum]

There is no need to twist my comment. I was suggesting that the bulk of their sales are to people don't know what they want. Like yourself, BigMatt and glorn, I too carry and use needlenose pliers. Just not at work, if it works for someone else that is great.

I didn't twist anything. You said they wanted to cover both bases to make the mall ninjas happy. I'm happy with the needle nose pliers and the bolt grippers, so effectively you called me a mall ninja.

A large amount of the workers in the subway carry LMs on their belts and use them every day. Some also carry specialized tools, but some don't.

As a musician, specifically a drummer, my Leatherman had been invaluable to me on the road for the last three years before I stopped touring.

I don't have to twist anything, I just don't think you're taking into account other types of "work" before you express your dislike of a product as a deficiency in the attitude of a company. When they send me a new tool (whose design has been everything I needed for my work) because a few implements have worn out or broken, I'd say they care plenty.

[AimlessWanderer]

The mood seems to be getting a little prickly in here .... 

To save me repeating myself, and for what it's worth, HERE's my own thought's on the matter 

[Gareth]

The mood seems to be getting a little prickly in here .... 

To save me repeating myself, and for what it's worth, HERE's my own thought's on the matter 

It does rather.  Lets all take a deep breath, OK?

[Zed]

Calm down good folk  , at the end of the day  a mt is a back up tool, dedicated tool is obviously the best tool for the job,a mt tries to cover most situations,my surge does a good job but i use my dedicated tools most of the time unless as said cant be bothered to go to my tool bag,for me a good maintenance mt needs a few replaceable parts like blade exchanger and bit adapter, the replaceable wire cutters is a good idea as well,we all have our favourites that some like and others dont thats life and a good thing or we would all get bored 

[David]

Seems to be quite a bit of bravo sierra fueled by hostile emotons around here.         

[tosh]

lol, it looks as though I've gone and opened a real can of worms here!,

TBH, this thread has been more or less on my mind since I first started it. I've made so many cock-ups today it's not real.

Okay, here we go.

First and foremost, none of this - I repeat none of this is aimed at you guys. If you're taking it personal, please try to remember this is a forum.

As most of you diehards will have gathered - I've managed to scrape together an enormous collection of Mt's and SAKs - not quite in the same league as some of you guys but enough to come to some sort of judgement on where it's all heading.

Let's go back a few years, to the golden age. I say that because it won't ever return.

Those multitools back in the early days Wengers Swissgrips, SOG's Toolclip, Schrade ST1 etc etc. boy, were they well built. As good as they were they weren't quite there but they were heading in the right direction. Then BANG!!

It's all gone...
Now it seems the manufacturers are just not interested in giving us what we want, rather they would like to offer us what they like.

This all started me off after reading samjams post. Prior to which I had often brought the subject up but to little response from you guys. Suddenly reading her request made me realise I was actually right. The poor lass simply wanted a multitool as a present for her husband, yet it transpires that amongst all the offerings from all the brands there wasn't a single one that could actually meet with such a simple request. It really is simply breathtaking that leatherman only this year celebrated its 30th anniversary  30 years experience  in building/designing multitools and yet, they still couldn't offer a simple solution to a simple request. It's beyond ridiculous it's pathetic!

But leatherman are not alone, when we look  closely at them all it's the same story. Yet, as I mentioned previously patents are held pretty much stopping anyone from coming to the market and taking the lead.

I really don't think I'm expecting too much, I really believe that the big guys just can't be bothered. Where I work, I haven't seen a single soul who uses let alone carries a multitool. But, I would hazard a guess that if samjams husband were ever to be given a multitool, so simple yet so effective, then work colleagues who normally wouldn't give the likes of such things the time of day - would be online and waiting for their very own to arrive.
The scope for something simple yet effective is in my view mind blowing. We need to get away from the gadget aspect that the modern multitool has become and although it will never compete with a toolbox it will be able to hold its own. And that's all I want - a simple tool that simply gets the job done....I don't think that's impossible.

[Sparky415]

 

http://www.bartleby.com/17/1/62.html

[tosh]

http://www.bartleby.com/17/1/62.html

Subtle hint there sparky 

[Gareth]

Respectfully Tosh, I disagree.  In the first instance; in Samjam's thread there were lots of MT's that met her request, saw, scissors and a knife.  Spoilt for choice I'd say.  It was you who jumped in and added to her list of requirements, still none of which actually made it difficult to find a good range of choices, so I'm at a bit of a loss when you say there were none for her to pick from.

As for the manufacturers not "giving us what we want", again, I have to disagree.  Yes, there are certain combinations of tools, features and designs I'd like to see that aren't to all be found on a single MT.  But until one of the makers starts doing custom designs then that's simply what I'm going to have to live with.  The idea that ANY company would put in a vast amount of time, effort and money into a product that they didn't think was filling a gap in the market seems a touch naive.  Yes we can point at the range of single piece tools that LM have recently put out and say "what's the point?", but the truth is that the effort and cost, compared to the potential return, make this still a reasonable bet for a good return. 
  Now, the design time, set-up and cost of making the Rebar is going to be considerably more, so why do it?  For one; sites like this one (and all other points of customer feedback) have been saying for years that they don't like the Zytel of the old Blast style tools.  Add that to the fact the ST300 has been very popular but perhaps a little large for some peoples taste and what do we get?  The Rebar.  At what point do you not think they are listening to their customers?

[CanadianLMfan]

I thought I remembered a blunt-nose mod someone did (Metro maybe?) to a Surge.

I know it's not stock, but still.

I can't smurfing find that thread on the mod to save my life, now. Grrr....

Was it the wave with its rebar snout chopped off?? Looked great, would look even better if it were the surge!

Was it my one Lynn?    More pics over here.

All I notice is the mechanic from Series 10 of Lego Minifigures.

[tosh]

Okay Gareth

Samjam - hubby is head of forestry work, so to me that spells chainsaws, heavy machinery, ropes, lifting gear etc etc. I cannot for the life of me see where the current crop of multis fits in - well I suppose needlenose may come for removing splinters.
Seriously, I'm guessing wet spark plugs, typically when you're up a tree, again you might get it out with regular pliers - pretty certain you'd distort the head of needle nose. Chainsaw teeth bent, twisted etc etc, again heavy pliers might save the day. Away from that scenario I think a SAK would fare better.

TBH I'm at a loss as to your praise for MTs - considering your profession and obligatory tools that go with it, it's almost like you simply enjoy using the MT simply because it's an MT, not because it's a tool and you've got to get the job done. ( I hope that comes across as I intend it)

Your reference to the rebar, I hate the rebar, I've got a few, but it just doesn't work for me.
Considering the cost of MTs here in the uk, especially LM MTs. Why would I carry a Surge, ST300, Charge, Wave etc etc that cost far far more than their individual tool components yet is no where near as effective as any of them - like I say, I love MTs, but they are still not right, and personally I think they're going the wrong way. That's my own personal view.
I might as well just EDC a CT41 and a pair of top quality 6" pliers. That would give me more confidence than ANY current multitool out there.

[Gareth]

Honestly mate, in almost all the examples you say you want blunt nosed pliers I'd be reaching for a good spanner.

I agree totally that a MT doesn't replace a good set of dedicated tools, I use spanners, screwdrivers, hammers etc every day.  That's fine and good if you don't mind lugging a full tool box around all day.  But for the jobs you are not expecting to have to do, it's a heck of a lot easier to have a MT on your belt rather than have to go get a dedicated tool.

General rule for me is; if a job is going to take a few minutes to sort, use a MT.  If it's going to take much more than that, then get the full tool kit.  The time and effort I save by having a MT on me for dealing with the little stuff makes it well worth it to me.

Each to their own Tosh, if they don't work for you that's OK, but I find them very handy.

[enki_ck]

Nick, you're putting words in other peoples mouths. Sam never said anything of the sort and never even mentioned pliers. It's you who said her husband would need heavy duty pliers.

Also, you are giving the multitools an impossible job they can't ever accomplish and that is to be better at something than a dedicated set of tools. how the heck can a folding set of pliers and a folding set of screwdrivers beat the dedicated heavy duty pliers or screwdrivers? They were never meant to do that. They are to help you when you don't have the dedicated tools on you. Or to reduce the need for repeated trips to the van or the tool box. It's a small pocket sized tool box for small quick jobs. Not a complete replacement for them. THe thing that puzzles me is if you dislike the tools and the practises of the manufacturers so much, and don't actually use any of the multitools in your collection, why do you collect them? And why you have such strong opinions of the things a tool can handle if you haven't actually tried using one in your job. The testing of the Balance doesn't count. A tool obviously out of it's comfort zone on a job site. More a city tool.  


I don't understand why it has to be Leatherman to make the blunt nosed multitool. Why them, why not any other manufacturer who already had them in their line up and doesn't anymore. Lots of other manufacturers have done it in the past. They don't anymore. That sounds like it wasn't profitable for them to make two kind of pliers as the blunt nosed ones obviously weren't bought in big enough numbers to keep them in production.

[Gareth]

I'll also say that the only set of MT pliers I've ever damaged were on my original Supertool, and I was using them as a leaver at the time.  Basically my own stupid fault.   When I've been using them as PLIERS I've never damaged any of them, perhaps you're not giving them the credit they deserve? 

[tosh]

Okay - I see I may have gone off track a bit!!

It was samjams reference to her hubby's profession. I may have simply assumed that this would be a working tool for forestry work, but as you say Sam, didn't actually spell it out like that. So my apologies.

But, (Gareth) the Surge (& Swisstool) is sooooo wasted by its plier head design. It bugs me no end. And I ain't going to fork out money for the new version then chop its nose off thus voiding LM warranty. I just don't understand the logic at all. Such a big powerful tool, yet ruined (for me) by the choice of plier head design.

What a waste 

[glorn]

Now it seems the manufacturers are just not interested in giving us what we want, rather they would like to offer us what they like.

Tosh, you are obviously passionate about this, and that's something I can understand and appreciate. But let me change just a few words in your quote above to reflect what I see as the reality of your situation.

"Now it seems the manufacturers are just not interested in giving me what I want, rather they would like to offer us what sells."

You want a rather specific tool. Period. And right now, nobody is making one.

-shrug-

I can't for the life of me figure out why Vic won't make Farmers with scissors.. Or more 111s with clips.. But they don't.

-shrug part two-

We want what we want. They make what they can sell.

I personally would have no use for the type of MT you seem to be after. I would do exactly as you describe and carry specific tools, not a MT. When I need really rock solid blunt nose pliers, I do not want a blade and a file and other compromises in the way.

If they do make a tough duty MT that meets "real tool" standards but had no MT compromises, then I might buy one. Usually though I just need something to take care of all the inbetweens and "Dammit.. if I only had a.." moments.

[glorn]

Honestly mate, in almost all the examples you say you want blunt nosed pliers I'd be reaching for a good spanner.

I swear.. if you guys keep ignoring Gareth and I and refusing to carry a small wrench with your multi..

We are going to start a very exclusive and exciting "Spanner/Wrench Owners Club" and none of you will be allowed in without pics of yourself with a wrench and the days newspaper to verify date. Then we will sit comfortably in our exclusive club of clearly intelligent tool using gentlemen and throw pliers teeth chewed nuts and bolts at you while we sip single malt.

Stop ruining nuts and bolts. Don't be a cretin.. banging away at fasteners like some sort of proto-human wielding a crude stone adze.

Grant says he will get us big leather reclining chairs, and we can smoke cigars. Spanner/Wrench Club is gonna be so awesome!