Do they actually care?? really?

[David]

Honestly mate, in almost all the examples you say you want blunt nosed pliers I'd be reaching for a good spanner.

I swear.. if you guys keep ignoring Gareth and I and refusing to carry a small wrench with your multi..

We are going to start a very exclusive and exciting "Spanner/Wrench Owners Club" and none of you will be allowed in without pics of yourself with a wrench and the days newspaper to verify date. Then we will sit comfortably in our exclusive club of clearly intelligent tool using gentlemen and throw pliers teeth chewed nuts and bolts at you while we sip single malt.

Stop ruining nuts and bolts. Don't be a cretin.. banging away at fasteners like some sort of proto-human wielding a crude stone adze.
Grant says he will get us big leather reclining chairs, and we can smoke cigars. Spanner/Wrench Club is gonna be so awesome!

Now your taking all the fun out of adjusting things. I have seen adjustable spanners used just about as much as hammers as a wrench. While we're at it lets hang a 3' cheater pipe off the end of that handle for more leverage.       

[Craiger]

The answer to this is really pretty simple. Of course they care but with MT's, versatility is the name of the game. It really comes down to the fact that needle-nose pliers will serve more functions and more users than will blunt-nose. You are unfortunately in the other user group. Are blunt-nose cool? Sure they are, but not quite cool enough. If the majority wanted, and was requesting/buying mostly blunt nose, you can bet all the other mfgs would jump on board. But that's not the case, because needle nose will fit into those gaps and pick up those fidgety widgets that a blunt nose couldn't reach.

Now having said that, if I was running Leatherman, I would be running it more like SOG. Specifically I would allow interchanging/purchasing of compatible tools and offer as many viable options (including plier heads), for each and every model; as many as my tool designers could provide. Aftermarket accessories can be a huge profit area, and can also draw a larger customer base. I would change tools on each and every one of my Leathermans if I could, because none of them are "perfect" for my needs (heavy industrial).

I don't view my needle nose as weak or less capable; it has always been more helpful than blunt nose for me. I know when it's time to go grab some real tools. But like most here, my MT's save me a bunch of daily trips to the toolbox, shop, garage, truck etc.

[Craiger]

So this is where you guys nominate me for Leatherman President, and I start making your MT dreams come true.

Seriously, think about it: Leatherman sells a tool, and BANG, it's over. The only thing they can expect from you is a (+) word-of-mouth reference sale, (+) repeat customer (MT.org members!) or (-) seeing your tool come in for free warranty work, for 25 years.

Whereas they could have a complete line of interchangeable parts, made in big batches, in a small warehouse, which equals more (++++) reference sales, a larger loyalty/user group, more aftermarket/small parts sales, and possibly less warranty work, since you would likely be using a tool better suited to your particular needs. 

Here's the corporate greed stinger: Make the warranty only applicable to the framework of the tool for 25 years, not the individual implements. But I don't see this as a big deal. Personally, I would prefer to shell out $5-$10 for a new bit driver and have it mailed to me, as opposed to sending in my entire tool for replacement or warranty work. But as your president, I would pass the warranty savings on to you, the customer.

Even better, I'll sell you a dirt-cheap ST300 frame (or any LM frame), and you can have it custom built with all your desired tools and pliers from the start!

[glorn]

Honestly mate, in almost all the examples you say you want blunt nosed pliers I'd be reaching for a good spanner.

I swear.. if you guys keep ignoring Gareth and I and refusing to carry a small wrench with your multi..

We are going to start a very exclusive and exciting "Spanner/Wrench Owners Club" and none of you will be allowed in without pics of yourself with a wrench and the days newspaper to verify date. Then we will sit comfortably in our exclusive club of clearly intelligent tool using gentlemen and throw pliers teeth chewed nuts and bolts at you while we sip single malt.

Stop ruining nuts and bolts. Don't be a cretin.. banging away at fasteners like some sort of proto-human wielding a crude stone adze.
Grant says he will get us big leather reclining chairs, and we can smoke cigars. Spanner/Wrench Club is gonna be so awesome!

Now your taking all the fun out of adjusting things. I have seen adjustable spanners used just about as much as hammers as a wrench. While we're at it lets hang a 3' cheater pipe off the end of that handle for more leverage.       

 

Anybody caught using one of my wrenches as a hammer is gonna get a 3' cheater pipe to the back of the head.

[zoidberg]

I thought I remembered a blunt-nose mod someone did (Metro maybe?) to a Surge.

I know it's not stock, but still.

I can't smurfing find that thread on the mod to save my life, now. Grrr....

Was it the wave with its rebar snout chopped off?? Looked great, would look even better if it were the surge!

Was it my one Lynn?    More pics over here.

All I notice is the mechanic from Series 10 of Lego Minifigures.

Good spotting, he helps Grandpa keep my desk organised.

[AimlessWanderer]

Like many on here, I really do not understand the dissatisfaction of multitools. They sure beat using your fingers and teeth for many jobs.

If I have a seized Phillips screw that's been in decades that needs releasing, I'll get a dedicated driver. If there's a loose Phillips screw on a drawer pull or door hinge, I don't need to go and fetch a dedicated driver as my pocket tool will fix that.

If I am trying to take the twist out of some deformed metal, or bend twist heavy wire, I'll get some dedicated pliers. If I'm trying to remove a broken 2mm drill bit, pick up something from a gap that my fingers won't fit in, or just get a little exra purchase on something my fingers are slipping on, my pocket tool will sort that.

I shouldn't need anything more than a pocket tool to rewire a plug, and my Gerber Balance will handle that. Not having drop forged blunt nosed pliers and Wiha drivers do not hinder that job. For heavier jobs on the boat for example, my Balance could very easily be out of it's comfort zone, but my Swisstool or Core may handle it .... and when you're in a narrowboat engine room there's no room for a tool box. You have what you took in with you, and it can literally take two or three minutes just to get out without disturbing what you're working on too much, the time to get the tools and another two ot three minutes to feed yourself back into the position you were in before. Competent multitools do not replace dedicated tools, but they sure save a lot of time and effort in confined spaces ... or at height ... or in any situation when your toolbox isn't right there with you.

There's been MANY times down at the boatyard when I've been collared to look at a problem, and I have been maybe 100m to 150m away from tools. Sure, I'll make that trip if I have to, but if I can fix it with what I have in my pocket, all the better. It doesn't matter is it's a SOG Toolclip, Gerber Octane, or Style PS .... that's a lot of time and effort saved if what I have in my pocket can save the day. Sometimes it can, sometimes it can't and I have to make the trip to the toolbox. But if it's a pipe leak, stern gland or sea cock that's about to blow, or an iminant risk of electrical failure/fire/fuel leak or even someones clothing caught in a gearbox, you REALLY DO NOT want to be going for a little wander to find the proper tools unless you absolutely have to.

If there was a multitool with drop forged stainless plier heads, drivers as good as dedicated ones, shears, awl, and all the trimmings, robust enough to take anything that's thrown at it, fully rust resistant, blah blah blah ... would I have this in my pocket at the boat? No! I wouldn't want something expensive like that which could fall out of my pocket and I could lose in the canal or river. How about on my belt? No! Sheath carry just leads to snagging which can damage stuff around you, plus put you in trouble if your access/egress is restricted. How about if I used my needle nosed pliers to pull a splinter out of the big toe of an Oompahloompah, and out of gratitude he decided to follow me round everywhere I went as a caddy so I didn't have to pocket carry or sheath carry ... I still wouldn't buy one! Why? Because it would be WAY too expensive for the extra utility it offered above the standard multitools. A driver with a knackered Phillips bit, is a knackered screwdriver - a multitool with a knackered Phillips bit, is a knackered toolbox! That's a far more expensive items that won't be carried now because it doesn't offer everything you need .... so if there's a chance of my (standard grade) multitool (whichever it is I happen to have on me) being overwhelmed by the job at hand, I'll go off in search of dedicated tools - unless it's a panic job and I'll try to fix it with whatever I have.

Cheap and more expensive multitools have both very frequently made my life easier over the last few years. Some people get by in life with no tools at all. Others feel naked unless they've got their roll cab full of snap on tools beside them

[Etherealicer]

Most of this has already been said in one form or an other.

The function of a MT is to substitute a dedicated tool, whenever that dedicated tool is not available (within reach). As such the needlenose pliers is more versatile and therefore the right plier-head for a MT.

Or is it? The problem (for me) here is that Surge / Wave / Charge / Swisstool / Spirit, they are all basically the same MT with very similar tool-load. Gerber is the only manufacturer that plays around (e.g. the Steady). Personally, I would second the motion to add more variations like blunt nosed pliers, extra long / thin pliers (that would be for me, to get to hard to reach places).
On the other hand if we consider how many people whined about the absence of the eye-glass screwdriver on the new Surge (a tool that IMHO did not belong there in the first place). So if LM wanted to make it right for everybody (with only these two tools, I haven't started to complain about cap-lifters and can-openers yet ), that already makes 4 versions of the Surge:
Blunt nose with eye-glass screwdriver
Blunt nose without eye-glass screwdriver
Needle nose with eye-glass screwdriver
Needle nose without eye-glass screwdriver
In the end its obvious that the manufacturer must compromise. We may not like it but that's how it is. Long live the Modders!

[Gareth]

Sounds like an excellent plan.  

Honestly mate, in almost all the examples you say you want blunt nosed pliers I'd be reaching for a good spanner.

I swear.. if you guys keep ignoring Gareth and I and refusing to carry a small wrench with your multi..

We are going to start a very exclusive and exciting "Spanner/Wrench Owners Club" and none of you will be allowed in without pics of yourself with a wrench and the days newspaper to verify date. Then we will sit comfortably in our exclusive club of clearly intelligent tool using gentlemen and throw pliers teeth chewed nuts and bolts at you while we sip single malt.

Stop ruining nuts and bolts. Don't be a cretin.. banging away at fasteners like some sort of proto-human wielding a crude stone adze.

Grant says he will get us big leather reclining chairs, and we can smoke cigars. Spanner/Wrench Club is gonna be so awesome!

[Etherealicer]

Sounds like an excellent plan.  

Honestly mate, in almost all the examples you say you want blunt nosed pliers I'd be reaching for a good spanner.

I swear.. if you guys keep ignoring Gareth and I and refusing to carry a small wrench with your multi..

We are going to start a very exclusive and exciting "Spanner/Wrench Owners Club" and none of you will be allowed in without pics of yourself with a wrench and the days newspaper to verify date. Then we will sit comfortably in our exclusive club of clearly intelligent tool using gentlemen and throw pliers teeth chewed nuts and bolts at you while we sip single malt.

Stop ruining nuts and bolts. Don't be a cretin.. banging away at fasteners like some sort of proto-human wielding a crude stone adze.

Grant says he will get us big leather reclining chairs, and we can smoke cigars. Spanner/Wrench Club is gonna be so awesome!

Yay, I'm in

[AimlessWanderer]

Another factor to consider is that some people here use their multitools really hard. Mr Whippy comes to mind as one of them (hope he doesn't mind me singling him out). Some of the jobs I've seen him put a tool through really make me cringe, but much of the time he will get away with it. He's not just doing for the heck of it either. There's a chap who by the nature of what he does is heavily reliant on multitools, as he just doesn't have the option to carry tools with him, and will often find himself further from his dedicated tools than many of us would on a normal day. He needs tools he can work hard, and frankly be brutal with. He'll certainly subject a tool to more than I'd ever need to, and if they didn't do what was needed, he wouldn't be carrying them.

For me, the boat sees the hardest multitool use, at work multitools frankly aren't that much use as proper heavy duty tools are needed, and away from work and the boat I can generally get away with pocket carrying a sub-4" tool. Mr Whippy, Jothra, JAfromMN and others have showed that these tools are more than toys. I know from my own use they can be a massive asset in certain circumstances.

If multitools don't work for you, that doesn't mean that others are faced with the same limitations. Manufacturers however have to pitch their tools for what most people will buy. Most people WILL NOT buy superdooperfandango gear that's priced accordingly. We moan about LM's prices in the UK as they stand now .... imagine how much we'd have to pay if they built them to higher standards with more expensive materials and processes. That would most likely be commercial suicide.

What you need to remember with wanting significant changes from these manufacturers is that they need to think that 100,000 of these new items will sell at the necessary price to justify the plant, tooling and processes involved. What one person, ten people, or even a hundred people will buy is completely and utterly irrelevant. If they can't make a commercial success of producing tens of thousands of units to people who aren't like us nutters, then it isn't worth doing. For anyone who wants something that isn't commercially viable on that basis, your choices are tool modification or finding an artisan who will produce a one-off bespoke tool from scratch.

[AimlessWanderer]

Another point on tool prices ..... 15 years ago when my mate got a Leatherman Wave, it was about the same price as it is today. Everything has gone up in costs since that time, materials, energy, labour, building rates, tooling, litigation, insurance, transportation, storage. I cannot think of a single factor in manufacturing that hasn't gone up in price in the last 15 years, and yet the sales price remains the same. If the tools that we buy had gone up in price according to inflation etc, and the companies strived to achieve the same level of strength and quality as seen in the tools of yesteryear - they'd have all gone bust through lack of sales.

Some costs savings will have been achieved through production methods, economies of scale, and effective management. It still wouldn't have kept the tools down to a price that people would pay though, so sacrifices have had to be made to keep producing things that customers will keep handing over money for. This is where the LM one piece line has come from. A product they can make a margin on. A product that is less likely to be returned for "warranty". A product that cheap enough for non-tool users to buy as gifts.

If Leatherman and all the others actually did what many people want from them - they simply wouldn't exist anymore

[Etherealicer]

Another point on tool prices ..... 15 years ago when my mate got a Leatherman Wave, it was about the same price as it is today. Everything has gone up in costs since that time, materials, energy, labour, building rates, tooling, litigation, insurance, transportation, storage. I cannot think of a single factor in manufacturing that hasn't gone up in price in the last 15 years, and yet the sales price remains the same. If the tools that we buy had gone up in price according to inflation etc, and the companies strived to achieve the same level of strength and quality as seen in the tools of yesteryear - they'd have all gone bust through lack of sales.

Funny, I talked to a guy on Saturday and he said something every similar. The basic Vic SAK haven't increased in price for 20 years!
I mean you pay 20 bucks for an Alox Cadet and 50 bucks for a plastic iPhone sleeve. In essence collecting MT's is actually quite a bargain 

[Aloha]

some good conversation going here and some good follow up as well.  a lot of what I feel has been stated so I don't have much more to add.  wanting a choice of plier head on the big guys for me is a result of going from a wave to a swisstool.  I just enjoy the bluntish plier head so as of late ive been using them more.  needlenose are fine and my wave can attest to the amount of work that got done by them.  I don't feel they don't care it very well may be about demand and the obvious profit margin for them.  I feel LM warranty fulfillment on damaged tools is a good example of them caring.  it seems like some tools could have been easily been sent back to the owner or a fee charged for abuse but from what ive read here on MTo LM has time and time again come thru as did other manufactures.  If we are starting a new club count me in     

[Zed]

Aaaarrrhhhh i now want to put paracord on my spanners 

Some good points here,there warranty alone proves they care as said,this is one reason i stick with leatherman as they have never let me down,my surge is no shelf queen and gets plenty of abuse and just takes it,

[Magic Bus]

I can understand where Tosh is coming from but I don't believe the perfect MT will ever roll off the production line. Compromises are part and parcel of the deal and are what makes them such good fun. I also think it sometimes requires a bit of lateral thinking to get the best out of a multi eg. possibly using a particular implement for a task that it is not designed for and by this I don't mean necessarily abusing it, just thinking out of the box   

[tosh]

What you need to remember with wanting significant changes from these manufacturers is that they need to think that 100,000 of these new items will sell at the necessary price to justify the plant, tooling and processes involved.


That's a fair point AL, but I really don't see how it would cost that much extra to reprogramme the robot to grind the nose off 10,000 Surges. That's all I'm asking, an' they could list them as limited editions too!

[detron]

Aaaarrrhhhh i now want to put paracord on my spanners 

Yep,  we can all thank Aloha for pointing out another place we need to put paracord

[CanadianLMfan]

I thought I remembered a blunt-nose mod someone did (Metro maybe?) to a Surge.

I know it's not stock, but still.

I can't smurfing find that thread on the mod to save my life, now. Grrr....

Was it the wave with its rebar snout chopped off?? Looked great, would look even better if it were the surge!

Was it my one Lynn?    More pics over here.

All I notice is the mechanic from Series 10 of Lego Minifigures.

Good spotting, he helps Grandpa keep my desk organised.

[mr626]

As with many others that have already posted, I tend to see my MT as a mini-toolkit that I always have on hand that *may* save me a trip back to where my full toolset is kept.

For example, in my job (I.T at a College spread over 80 acres) I often get a call/email with some fairly vague description of a problem  ("printer is broken", "computer crashed" etc). I have no way of knowing what tool(s) I might need until I get there. A MT like a Wave with bit kit (which is what I normally carry) means that for 80% of the jobs I'm saved a trip back to the office to grab the toolbox. For the other 20% though, I still need to reach for 'proper' tools.

I do try and anticipate what tasks my day is likely to hold, and carry a MT that best matches up. For example, on days when I am helping my friend clear his block of land (felling trees, clearing undergrowth, various other 'outdoors' type tasks) I'll carry my ST300. As with the Wave at work, this will often save me a trip to the 'real' tool kit (which is significant on my friend's block of land- very steep and we are often working at the bottom with limited access).

In terms of companies making my 'perfect' multi-tool, well I doubt that will ever happen. My set of needs/wants is fairly specific to me (fancy that!) so I can't see it happening any time soon. Still, I figure that's why its great that sites like this exist: if I really wanted a MT with a certain load-out that wasn't being mass-produced I can learn from the helpful people here and make my own 

[Aloha]

  I end up para cording everything within reach while watching NFL games.  its very relaxing tho my skill are rudimentary but fun non the less.

I can understand where Tosh is coming from but I don't believe the perfect MT will ever roll off the production line. Compromises are part and parcel of the deal and are what makes them such good fun. I also think it sometimes requires a bit of lateral thinking to get the best out of a multi eg. possibly using a particular implement for a task that it is not designed for and by this I don't mean necessarily abusing it, just thinking out of the box    

Great point, I think we all know what right tool to use given the situation but there is a MacGyver in us all and with our mulit's we are better prepared than most. the trades men that carry MT's have made great points about not going back to the truck or shop when a MT will suffice, and I fit that perfectly.  heck I was thinking even with our beloved SAKs there are models that are almost perfect but not quite.  this opens up all the fantastic imaginations of our fellow MODDERS and haven't we seen some of the most incredible MODS as a result??  its very interesting to see all the great conversation in this thread.   

[nate j]

...for 80% of the jobs I'm saved a trip back to the office to grab the toolbox. For the other 20% though, I still need to reach for 'proper' tools.

This essentially sums it up for me, both at work and at home.

[Syncop8r]

Leatherman advertise their needlenose plier multitools as having both needlenose pliers and regular pliers - they can claim it has more tools. Not sure if they'd say the same for a bluntnose multitool?

[ducttapetech]

I kinda wish that they offered a blunt nose even at a little extra cost. I am one of the few who does prefer a blunt nose over needle nose. The needle nose tends to get in the way. But, I use the needle nose a lot too.
But I have figured out a long time ago, carrying a small cresent wench(spanner I believe some of you call them) with a needle nose plier seems to help. Not always but helps. Does kinda suck that I run across a job that my Surge or what ever I am carrying could have fixed it in no time couldn't do it because the of tips on a needle nose where in the way and have walk all the way back to the barn to get a tool.

Now having said that, if I am running a company and only a few people are gonna buy a blunt nose plier and everyone wants needle nose, well I am not gonna make them. Not worth the cost.

sent from Nate's mobile

[ducttapetech]

Oh yeah, pic of my paracord wrapped "spanner".


sent from Nate's mobile

[Aloha]

Oh yeah, pic of my paracord wrapped "spanner".


sent from Nate's mobile

      I find on these little guys the paracord provides a comfortable and better grip plus it just looks darn good.

[ducttapetech]

Yes it does.

sent from Nate's mobile

[Sparky415]

Oh yeah, pic of my paracord wrapped "spanner".


sent from Nate's mobile

Nice Spanner 

 

[Monrogue]

I don't have much to offer here at this point, but I will say I prefer needlenose pliers as they meet my needs here at work.  Blunt nosed pliers would not help at all with the tasks I typically encounter that require pliers (which are admittedly few overall). 

I agree with the fact that we'll never see the "perfect" MT for each of our own individual needs/preferences.  I could go bonkers over analyzing what would be perfect to me, and I won't deny that I've thought on this many times.  This is where the awesome modders here come into play