Vintage SAK Owners Club

[FolderBeholder]

[VICMAN]

Very nice FB!

[pa_strunk]

 

[kamakiri]

I’m sorry, everybody! I thought it would be clear what it is...but less so on when it is from.

Mine pictured below are all +PAT...

Does anybody have one like the other beat up one in their collection...and can anybody make a guess about when it was produced?

.

[jnoxyd]

I’m sorry, everybody! I thought it would be clear what it is...but less so on when it is from.

Mine pictured below are all +PAT...

Does anybody have one like the other beat up one in their collection...and can anybody make a guess about when it was produced?

.

Do you mean your knife has no +Pat can opener (post 1971) and all other tools from Victoria era (till 1973) and was made in this time range?
Yes, all of my blue "Fischermessers" also have +Pat but very close 234f  doesn't have it. It also has pre73 blades and corkscrew but already has ruler on fishtool. So it was made a bit later than yours.

[kamakiri]

Do you mean your knife has no +Pat can opener (post 1971) and all other tools from Victoria era (till 1973) and was made in this time range?

The knife I posted on the other page is from an auction knife. It does not have the +PAT. All three of my knives above with the black background do.

One reason I have used auction pics for examples is that we can all look at the same picture and I won’t have the distinct advantage of taking the pics or using a knife I own and can hold or inspect under a loupe. Essentially, I can often asses a precise date with smurfy *bay auction pics, when they are ‘good enough’ to see what I need to.

Yes, all of my blue "Fischermessers" also have +Pat but very close 234f  doesn't have it. It also has pre73 blades and corkscrew but already has ruler on fishtool. So it was made a bit later than yours.
(Image removed from quote.)

Excellent example...what is your date estimate for this one and the damaged one I posted earlier? All estimates and guesses welcome. Please include reasons why.

....


I feel my answer to jazzbass did not satisfy. One or all, regarding my process. My earlier attempts to ‘show’ differences about the “1973” Hoffritz didn’t seem to help. So I am trying again with a new example.

[kamakiri]

Not sure of age of this one, but it seems to be similar to jnoxyd's:

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

FB-
If you show what’s under the in line phillips, it will be clearly different from jnoxyd’s. It should either have a brass collar/spacer surrounding the pin/rivet...or the updated backspring where the center ‘hump’ is rlongated so it touches the pin. Either is possible.

My guess is that it’s the brass collar.

[nitram]

(Image removed from quote.)


(Image removed from quote.)

FB-
If you show what’s under the in line phillips, it will be clearly different from jnoxyd’s. It should either have a brass collar/spacer surrounding the pin/rivet...or the updated backspring where the center ‘hump’ is rlongated so it touches the pin. Either is possible.

My guess is that it’s the brass collar.

Interesting, I just noticed that collar on one of mine today and posted a question about it. I had to go back and check, the backsprings are different on the newer ones and the older Champs have no hump or collar. Just out of curiosity, is there a timeframe known for this?

[kamakiri]

Interesting, I just noticed that collar on one of mine today and posted a question about it. I had to go back and check, the backsprings are different on the newer ones and the older Champs have no hump or collar. Just out of curiosity, is there a timeframe known for this?

Yes, it’s believe it to be roughly ‘81 to ‘86. I’ll expand a bit more in your other thread.

[jnoxyd]

The knife I posted on the other page is from an auction knife. It does not have the +PAT. All three of my knives above with the black background do.
...
Excellent example...what is your date estimate for this one and the damaged one I posted earlier? All estimates and guesses welcome. Please include reasons.

To be honest, we still do not have a consensus here on the sequence and dates of changes in the 1973-1975 transit period.  So I usually use 1973 as a reference year for the end of the Victoria era and the introduction of new tools such as magnifier, Phillips, 2.4mm blade, spear point blade, new file / metal saw, screwdriver on back, ruler on hook remover.  So (roughly) your self-destructive knife is from 1972 (no +Pat) -1973(VOS stamp, Victoria age tools) and mine - from 1973.  I will be happy to hear the arguments in favor of your, I am sure, more detailed dating
P.S. Remind me please where we had discussion here about different fonts on fish hook extractor .

[kamakiri]

To be honest, we still do not have a consensus here on the sequence and dates of changes in the 1973-1975 transit period. 

True. I would like to achieve that, but it is not the top priority for me. I’d be happy with removal of gross (as in large) errors.

So I usually use 1973 as a reference year for the end of the Victoria era and the introduction of new tools such as magnifier, Phillips, 2.4mm blade, spear point blade, new file / metal saw, screwdriver on back, ruler on hook remover.  So (roughly) your self-destructive knife is from 1972 (no +Pat) -1973(VOS stamp, Victoria age tools) and mine - from 1973.  I will be happy to hear the arguments in favor of your, I am sure, more detailed dating

For yours, I would stipulate ‘73 production. Probably 1st half, without seeing more. Basically to confirm there are no ‘74+ parts or ‘construction’ issues. I would ask for additional pictures of top and bottom tools closed, as I often do.

Before you post those two pics, please compare you knife to the pictures I posted. And see if you still think they are in separate year production.

Broadly, I agree that it ‘must’ or at least should be from between ‘71.5 and ~’73.5. There are some subtle details that change in that time. Consider especially the two picture views that I ask for.

P.S. Remind me please where we had discussion here about different fonts on fish hook extractor .

[kamakiri]

Oops forgot to answer about the numbered scalers...I don’t recall much discussion on them, but probably somewhere in this thread.

[MiniChamp]

P.S. Remind me please where we had discussion here about different fonts on fish hook extractor .

Several threads, over the years, but most importantly here:
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,82709.0.html

[jnoxyd]

Several threads, over the years, but most importantly here:

Many thanks, MiniChamp!

[jnoxyd]

Hi Kamakiri!
Here are the photos you like . But I still believe that your knife could (just could!) have been made in an earlier period (than mine) from 1972 (no + Pat on the opener, single bevel no scale fish scaler) and until 1973 (all parts/stamps in my opinion are from the Victoria era).  My knife has a scale and font is 1973 version (according to Jazzbass) and Victoria era tools/stamps. In addition, your knife has full middle liners, which is typical for the pre-1973 era, I showed below a same tool set knife from c.1973 that has liners with cutouts.  Show me please what part of your knife could not have been completed before 1973?  Maybe awl?
I've put together a small selection of similar knives from the 1960s-1970s.  By the way, it is interesting that the right Fisherman looks from 1979-1980 (notch on the back spring, nickel silver emblem) has a pre73 liner of the blade line from the "bottom of the bin" (yes, also it can be repaired )

[kamakiri]

Focus on that first comparison that I asked you for. Consider this...remove the scissor and metal saw from the knife I posted and then how many differences remain? Do the same for your latest +PAT knife.

For the visible ‘73 or ‘73+ parts there are two. One (neither of the previous two) that is visibly unique from all your other knives in the above post.

Is that a can key on the first non +PAT?

Maybe more ‘73 knives than you were thinking. 

[jnoxyd]

Focus on that first comparison that I asked you for...
...Is that a can key on the first non +Pat?

There’s no can key but single-cut file 1b type (according MiniChamp)


What about knives comparison... On my 235fmU knives from 1960s, early 1970s, c.1973 (234f) and c.1973 I see only these differences :
-different liners on opener line (they really changed from full 1960s variant to post73 variant but not sure about dating middle one);
-slightly different awl body shape (no idea if it can help in dating)
-sharpened edge on bottle opener (do you have exact date when they stop it?)
We don’t talk about bail/key rings, scissors type/layout, fish scaler and scales color and emblem.
What am I missing? C’mon Kamakiri, share your knowledge with us.  I am sure it will be very useful and interesting.

[kamakiri]

There’s no can key but single-cut file 1b type (according MiniChamp)
(Image removed from quote.)

Maybe that one is late ‘71. Same ‘pose’ flipped over might help.

What about knives comparison... On my 235fmU knives from 1960s, early 1970s, c.1973 (234f) and c.1973 I see only these differences :
-different liners on opener line (they really changed from full 1960s variant to post73 variant but not sure about dating middle one);

This is one of the things to understand. But first, you need to know the construction protocol is different depending on what tool is next to it. In other words, you cannot equate the opener-scaler to opener-scissor, etc. The construction protocols for liners depend on what is on both sides.

The same applies to the knife liners in later years.

-slightly different awl body shape (no idea if it can help in dating)

Changes in the awl are somewhat irrelevant in the tight scope of ‘71.5 to ‘73.5 range.

-sharpened edge on bottle opener (do you have exact date when they stop it?)

I don’t have an exact date, but I believe ‘74 is devoid of them. Early ‘73 knives seem to all have them. Some later ‘73 do not. I am not sure if it is just by time or by model or by batching to explain why. All three could be relevant factors.

We don’t talk about bail/key rings, scissors type/layout, fish scaler and scales color and emblem.

We can expand a bit, but already we are discussing many parts and details.

There is some info to be gleaned from the scaler. Hard to see from that auction pic.

What am I missing? C’mon Kamakiri, share your knowledge with us.  I am sure it will be very useful and interesting.
(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)

What am I not sharing? 

I feel like I blab about chronology stuff whenever possible. And yes, I frequently do provide dates with explaining or taking the time to explain. That’s why I have the “dating in the ‘70’s” series.

Thinking back to yesterday when I posted in the thread about the Explorer and the non-anodized liners and no hook making it ‘90-‘91...I could or should have clarified or added that it is because of models like the ‘89 Battle series and the ‘91 Rutli and the Apollo 30th as well as misc. changeover knives that I have. But I don’t sit at a computer much anymore (it was a 2020 new year resolution) and I hate typing on this smurfing phone. But it’s what I do now.

[kamakiri]

No other observations? Saw something else that’s different. Perhaps not so specific to ‘73, but observable difference in your grouping and the knife in question.

[kamakiri]

One thing I’d like to point out is that the scissors on the Fish related models do not all follow the same timeline. 235faU use the 1951 style scissors longer, and believe due to the crimper and splitter functions that were not (to my knowledge) updated on the 1970 style scissors. Xfile’s c.’70 knife (attached) is a good example.

One oddball trait on the non-PAT 235faU I posted is the finish on the scissors. Similar to one of the Elinox finishes, but also shared traits with early 1970 style. Something I see ending within 1973.

[kamakiri]

Maybe this helps? Differences in parts and construction/assembly protocol matter. Again, I assert that there is more similarity in the ‘damaged’ 235faU knife I posted on the previous page to jnoxyd’s 234faU and that they are both ‘73.

[jnoxyd]

Hello Kamakiri!  Sorry, but I showed these different profile liners from can opener/bottle opener line 5 days ago (though without arrows):
 "...-different liners on opener line (they really changed from full 1960s variant to post73 variant but not sure about dating middle one)"
 I was not sure at first what type of liner is on the damaged knife, but maybe you're right and it's 1973 (and knife couldn't be made earlier). Okay, and what is one more difference you mentioned above?

[kamakiri]

I responded to the liners question in post #1397? 

I posted the composite picture to show them side by side and the arrows for anyone else looking.

The other differences are visible in the pics and are differences in finish and machining details. That’s all I’m going to say here on this topic. Others feel I’ve already overstayed my welcome in this thread regarding 1973-ish knives.

[jnoxyd]

Hello everybody!  I want to show a few pictures that are not quite relevant because I am not the owner of this knife or even this picture, to my regret.

[xfile]

Hello everybody!  I want to show a few pictures that are not quite relevant because I am not the owner of this knife or even this picture, to my regret.
(Image removed from quote.)(Image removed from quote.)(Image removed from quote.)

This is great, I've seen similar personal letters

[xfile]

I recently found a SAK. I think it's the 204 model in the 42 catalog,but it doesn't have the stamps of Victorinox,I'm a little confused.

[Huntsman]

Nice and amazing images jnox

The shield looks very different and the corkscrew has seven turns  ......... aristic license? .... Maybe      

That is a beauty xfile - And in incredible condition for 75 years old - I hope it's not one of those cleverly constructed fakes

[xfile]

Nice and amazing images jnox

The shield looks very different and the corkscrew has seven turns  ......... aristic license? .... Maybe      

That is a beauty xfile - And in incredible condition for 75 years old - I hope it's not one of those cleverly constructed fakes

In my experience, this knife should not be an imitation, and it is probably made by Victorinox, but I wonder why there is no stamp on it

[MexSAK]

Hello guys. Here is my late blue Fisherman. Have a good Thursday.

[Reinier]