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Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution 11542

No Life Club Posts: 1,246
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #60 on: February 02, 2018, 11:57:33 AM »
Awesome work Huntsman!

This needs to be my desktop background or a poster next to where I work on my knife DB :D
Sr. Member Posts: 365
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #61 on: February 02, 2018, 12:50:50 PM »
Here are the revisions I offer for Vic cellidors:

Thanks El C - This is great to get some feedback on the dating table  :tu:
I have inserted some comments after you suggestions - Can anyone else comment, confirm, or dispute - Mainly on the first two items !!
Please let us know ..........


1968 Last year for Sharpened Bottle opener/scraper
Hmm - That is a dramatic change - Current version and SAAMS says 1980 - Although with a ? - So they were not sure - Some evidence please !

1971 No "PAT" on Can Opener
Also is a dramatic change - Current version and SAAMS also says 1980? - Ditto !

1973 - 5 to 4 turn corkscrew
This is an interesting one and we mentioned it in ano thread  - Makes much more sense to me as I have some SAKs which have alu tipped tweezers but four turns CS - Which is not possible according to SAAMS - I am happy to update that one 
 :tu:

Back layer phillips:
Yes we also discussed this in ano thread - We have never seen a no file/no can key square SD - and SAAMS is a bit devoid of dates for the back SD - and we are all agreed on the 1992 date - So I am happy to update based on your dates 
:tu:
1952 - 1968 square, file, no can-key
1968 -1980 square, no file, can-key
1980 - 1992 round, can key
1992 - present round no can key

Divot Repair tool - 1992- 04?
Sure why not? I think I guessed the current end date in my table ! :o

Emblem Inlay on front scales - 80 Stainless Steel, before they were nickel/silver
Yep this is the date that is in the table

Hi Huntsman.

I have a no file no can key square sd. It is on an elinox automobile. Similar to the middle one pictured here. http://www.sakhome.com/305357095

Maybe its an elinox quirk?
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,596 Firm believer of Sturgeon's Law
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #62 on: February 02, 2018, 05:28:25 PM »
 :o

awesome!   :like:

My toys:

MTs: Surge (2x), Skeletool CX, Rebar, Blast, Fuse, Micra, Squirt (3x), Wave, Crunch, Mini, Spirit (2x), Pro Scout, MP700 (2x), Diesel, Powerlock, PowerPlier (2x), PocketPowerPlier, Blacktip , ST6 (2x), 5WR, A100

SAKs: Bantam, Executive, Ambassador, Minichamp, Classic Alox, Champion, Farmer, Explorer, Swisschamp, Golf Tool, Wenger Champ, EVO 52, Pocket Tool Chest
Sr. Member Posts: 393
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #63 on: February 02, 2018, 06:46:07 PM »
I think this tool-evolution spreadsheet, the tang stamp detail picture, the knife model evolution pictures, etc. should have a sticky thread pointing to them to make it easier to identify and date unknown knives we come across. I've used them a couple of times in the last month and they are indispensable.
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,154
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #64 on: February 02, 2018, 09:27:51 PM »
Here are the revisions I offer for Vic cellidors:

Thanks El C - This is great to get some feedback on the dating table  :tu:
I have inserted some comments after you suggestions - Can anyone else comment, confirm, or dispute - Mainly on the first two items !!
Please let us know ..........


1968 Last year for Sharpened Bottle opener/scraper
Hmm - That is a dramatic change - Current version and SAAMS says 1980 - Although with a ? - So they were not sure - Some evidence please !

1971 No "PAT" on Can Opener
Also is a dramatic change - Current version and SAAMS also says 1980? - Ditto !

1973 - 5 to 4 turn corkscrew
This is an interesting one and we mentioned it in ano thread  - Makes much more sense to me as I have some SAKs which have alu tipped tweezers but four turns CS - Which is not possible according to SAAMS - I am happy to update that one 
 :tu:

Back layer phillips:
Yes we also discussed this in ano thread - We have never seen a no file/no can key square SD - and SAAMS is a bit devoid of dates for the back SD - and we are all agreed on the 1992 date - So I am happy to update based on your dates 
:tu:
1952 - 1968 square, file, no can-key
1968 -1980 square, no file, can-key
1980 - 1992 round, can key
1992 - present round no can key

Divot Repair tool - 1992- 04?
Sure why not? I think I guessed the current end date in my table ! :o

Emblem Inlay on front scales - 80 Stainless Steel, before they were nickel/silver
Yep this is the date that is in the table

Hi Huntsman.

I have a no file no can key square sd. It is on an elinox automobile. Similar to the middle one pictured here. http://www.sakhome.com/305357095

Maybe its an elinox quirk?

 :like:Pics, please!  It's looking like the square/no file/no can key was an Elinox feature.   :cheers:

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,154
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #65 on: February 02, 2018, 09:59:47 PM »
Here are a couple knives which lead me to believe the wire scraper was no longer used in the early 70's.  Still don't have an exact date but I want to say '72 or '73  Neither of these knives have the wire scraper

First 2 pics: an original Explorer - Aluminum tipped Tweezers, old Scissor Spring

Second 2 pics:  Elinox Recruit (2.25 01 on box) with clip point small blade.

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
No Life Club Posts: 2,612
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #66 on: February 03, 2018, 01:48:45 AM »
Awesome work HUNTSMAN, I personally have been using your various versions of this chart for quite some time. This is certainly an excellent update and shall remain one of my primary source for dating OS SAKs.


Again, Thank you for your dedication and hard work.
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,596 Firm believer of Sturgeon's Law
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #67 on: February 03, 2018, 01:22:15 PM »
I think this tool-evolution spreadsheet, the tang stamp detail picture, the knife model evolution pictures, etc. should have a sticky thread pointing to them to make it easier to identify and date unknown knives we come across. I've used them a couple of times in the last month and they are indispensable.

 :imws:

My toys:

MTs: Surge (2x), Skeletool CX, Rebar, Blast, Fuse, Micra, Squirt (3x), Wave, Crunch, Mini, Spirit (2x), Pro Scout, MP700 (2x), Diesel, Powerlock, PowerPlier (2x), PocketPowerPlier, Blacktip , ST6 (2x), 5WR, A100

SAKs: Bantam, Executive, Ambassador, Minichamp, Classic Alox, Champion, Farmer, Explorer, Swisschamp, Golf Tool, Wenger Champ, EVO 52, Pocket Tool Chest
Hero Member Posts: 825
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #68 on: February 03, 2018, 03:08:10 PM »
El Corckscrew, you are right, we discussed this Elinox Phillips screwdriver some months ago:
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,51152.480.html
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 03:18:10 PM by jnoxyd »
Sr. Member Posts: 365
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #69 on: February 03, 2018, 04:07:52 PM »
Here it is now on a mongrel knife lol. I hope the pic is clear enough.



Sr. Member Posts: 365
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #70 on: February 04, 2018, 01:30:19 AM »
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,75569.0.html

70s Victorinox for sale with no key can no file square rear driver.

Global Moderator No Life Club Posts: 3,614
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #71 on: February 04, 2018, 01:24:00 PM »
Hey Guys
Never say never eh ???
Hot on the heels of ver viii (the so called last version) here is ver ix  !!!   :pok:

Thanks so much for all your poz-woz feeback - And extra info - Much appreciated - And it's really good to know this sheet is useful and being used
But I am just the chronicler - And this really is your information and your knowledge!   :tu:

So based on some of the feedback above, the additional info from JB in the vintage SAK thread (which I think I missed first time around), and a little digging on sakhome  - I made a couple more updates:
I have changed the dates of the backspring Phillips file/no file etc - and also put loosing the scraper on the SD a little later   

Sakhome is a great source of information - It's just a little hard to find/unravel sometimes.

Any comments/corrections gratefully received - I think maybe this spreadsheet will go on for ever !!

Finally I just gotta point you at a Swiss Army Dan youtube vid
- Where he finds the elusive square SD with no file and no can key - Unfortunately it sounds like he had to send it onto some other bloke   ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INfKmCT62RQ&t=307s

« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 01:46:38 PM by Huntsman »
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,154
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #72 on: February 04, 2018, 06:01:18 PM »
 :rofl: :D :salute: :cheers:

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 15,068 Yoo-hoo, big summer blowout!
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #73 on: February 04, 2018, 06:10:42 PM »
Whos this "swiss army dan" guy?  ???

 :whistle:

Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,610
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #74 on: February 04, 2018, 06:12:41 PM »
Dunno...

But he got his paws on a MTO Pioneer X! :ahhh

Buy now or regret later
Sr. Member Posts: 365
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #75 on: February 04, 2018, 06:25:17 PM »
Whos this "swiss army dan" guy?  ???

 :whistle:

El Can Opener or something :rofl:
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,488 I'm blue!
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,154
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #77 on: February 04, 2018, 06:48:45 PM »
Who,  :rofl:

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
Jr. Member Posts: 92
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #78 on: February 04, 2018, 10:22:51 PM »
First 2 pics: an original Explorer - Aluminum tipped Tweezers, old Scissor Spring
Could you please take a couple of photos of the knife with all the tool opened - view from the back and from the belly (I mean inside)? I am very interested in mag. glass spring evolution and your knife is the oldest Explorer I have ever seen.
Thanks in advance.

-Sorry my bed Inglish :) -
Jr. Member Posts: 92
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #79 on: February 05, 2018, 09:54:00 AM »
Hi, guys. I have one more question. Everywhere we can see, that logo shield on the top scale changed fron nickel-silver to stainless steel in 1980. But can we be sure, pretty sure in this date? I have a 74mm knife with one leaf type spring on the scissors and the shield made of stainless steel. On the Internet I have seen several knifes with SS shield but with tools from 1970s. I know official position of Victorinox in their documents, but I see the reality.
So the question is: is it possible, that this change happend before 1980? Maybe 1980 - is the year of changing on 91mm knifes, but for small size knifes it happend earlier... I do not know.

-Sorry my bed Inglish :) -
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,154
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #80 on: February 05, 2018, 08:23:02 PM »
Hi, guys. I have one more question. Everywhere we can see, that logo shield on the top scale changed fron nickel-silver to stainless steel in 1980. But can we be sure, pretty sure in this date? I have a 74mm knife with one leaf type spring on the scissors and the shield made of stainless steel. On the Internet I have seen several knifes with SS shield but with tools from 1970s. I know official position of Victorinox in their documents, but I see the reality.
So the question is: is it possible, that this change happend before 1980? Maybe 1980 - is the year of changing on 91mm knifes, but for small size knifes it happend earlier... I do not know.

I think that's possible.

I think another possibility is that the scissors and other implements changed a little later on the 74 and 84mm. 

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,154
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #81 on: February 05, 2018, 08:26:11 PM »
First 2 pics: an original Explorer - Aluminum tipped Tweezers, old Scissor Spring
Could you please take a couple of photos of the knife with all the tool opened - view from the back and from the belly (I mean inside)? I am very interested in mag. glass spring evolution and your knife is the oldest Explorer I have ever seen.
Thanks in advance.

Here ya go!

Apologies if these pics are too big, I cropped awl I could

(The inlay on this one is definitely not SS.)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 08:30:06 PM by El Corkscrew »

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,154
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #82 on: February 05, 2018, 08:27:51 PM »
Back of main blade tang has no stamp.

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
Jr. Member Posts: 92
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #83 on: February 05, 2018, 09:11:17 PM »
El Corkscrew, thanks a lot! That's I need!
But! It has an awl without bevel on the tip, is not it? According to my observations, this type of awl was produced in 1983-1985. It is strange - in 1973 it must have bevelled awl, I suppose. Am I wrong?

-Sorry my bed Inglish :) -
Sr. Member Posts: 365
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #84 on: February 05, 2018, 09:15:08 PM »
Cool pics. I have the identical toolset but Hoffritz blade (plastic tweezer, looks like stainless Hoffritz inlay and Vic shield) and what looks like a replaced spring on the exact same scissors (2,5mm pivot).

I was thinking that the spring should be a silver double one with the smaller eye. So is that a single black leaf spring or a broken black early mild steel spring?

Thanks.
Jr. Member Posts: 92
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #85 on: February 05, 2018, 09:26:17 PM »
I was thinking that the spring should be a silver double one with the smaller eye. So is that a single black leaf spring or a broken black early mild steel spring?
I have the same suspicion. The spring for 1973 must have a bit different form. So, I suppose, this Explorer is a bit younger.

But, Julius T. Verd said, that blank stamp instead of Officier Suisse Crossbow was produced in 1974-1975. And according to SAKhome.com it is true for Elinox stamped knifes. Heh, this knife is quite strange.

2 Huntsman:
Great job. I have something to add and change, may I?
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 09:44:40 PM by Frater_Martin »

-Sorry my bed Inglish :) -
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,154
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #86 on: February 05, 2018, 09:47:11 PM »
El Corkscrew, thanks a lot! That's I need!
But! It has an awl without bevel on the tip, is not it? According to my observations, this type of awl was produced in 1983-1985. It is strange - in 1973 it must have bevelled awl, I suppose. Am I wrong?

I haven't seen a lot of consistency with the bevel on the awl. I think they went back and forth with different models through the 70s

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,154
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #87 on: February 05, 2018, 09:50:28 PM »
I know jazzbass has commented about the common years the Tang stamp was blank. I believe it was 73,75 and 77.

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
Full Member Posts: 224
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #88 on: February 07, 2018, 02:44:09 AM »
Great project Huntsman!  :like:  :like:

I have a few corrections to suggest.

LNF: In the linked "Vic tools" document, Victorinox writes "1942 new screwdriver with cap lifter, nail file with nail cleaner on the back of the knife". This is in agreement with the fact that one certainly encounters SAKs with an LNF from the 1940's, so I think that the start date for the LNF should be changed to 1942.

Main blade: In the polished version of the "Vic tools" document, Victorinox writes that the thickness of the main blade shank on 91mm SAKs changed from 2.4mm to 2.0mm in 2004, whereas the tang stamps changed only in 2005. This is in agreement with the fact that one encounters SAKs with a 2.0mm shank and V*SSR/+^OS stamps. They are relatively scarce, but not more than what should be expected for about one year of production. The first attached image shows this evolution.

Awl: There were actually three distinct changes made to the awl in the 1980's (currently only the first two of them appear in the table). The third change involved the shape of the awls with the sewing eye. The first generation of them had a tapered shape which is very similar to that of the last generation of awls without a sewing eye. After about 1-2 years they changed this to the current shape of the awl, which is actually intermediate between this tapered shape and the pre-1983 beveled shape. With this current shape the awl has roughly uniform thickness from its base to about 2mm above the eye and then there is a a kind of moderate bevel over the last half inch (or so). The second attached image shows this evolution.

Saw: Before reaching its current form in the mid-1960's, the wood saw on Victorinox SAKs was actually one of the most frequently changing tools. I can think of 9 different variants that I am familiar with on 91mm SAKs (and I expect that there are probably more). Some of the changes involve going from variants that have more teeth on the left side to variants having more teeth on the right side and back. Indeed, it may be worthwhile to start a separate thread to discuss just saw evolution. In terms of the parameters that are currently in the table (and which seem to consider only 91mm SAKs), I can offer the following corrections:
Teeth counts: When Victorinox moved away from 27 teeth in the early 1950's (I believe that 1953 would be a better estimate than 1952 for when this happened), they first changed to a saw version that had 39 (much smaller) teeth. Only after a few more years (but well within the open rivets era, so I believe that 1956 should be a reasonable estimate for when this happened) they changed this to a saw version with 29 teeth. The third attached image shows this evolution.
Nail nick: The nail nick on wood saws for 91mm SAKs persisted well into the hidden rivets era. It was removed sometime in the 1957-1961 period. I believe that 1959 should make a reasonable estimate for the time of this removal.
Change to the current saw variant with symmetric teeth: I'm quite sure that this happened before 1968 (because I never saw an earlier variant on a SAK with a keyring). I believe that 1966 is probably the right year for this transition.
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,154
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #89 on: February 07, 2018, 02:50:42 AM »
Great stuff, Minichamp!  :tu:  :like:  :cheers:

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain

 

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