Quote from: marduk on September 22, 2014, 12:02:05 AMIf you're looking for really radical SAK knives just look at some of what Wenger turned out: Minathor, Bernina, Giant, Reed Knife, and what is probably their biggest fiasco: Business Tool. One model wasn't enough, they made 4 models of this tool. Think of the cost that went into designing and producing these models. I don't doubt that this contributed to Wenger going belly up.Victorinox, on the other hand, has been relatively conservative in introducing new models, and many of their new ones are but minor modifications of earlier ones, thus reducing costs considerably.Yeah, but all of that contributed to the fact that Victorinox never fully dealt with their flaws: after 100 years their scissors are still half-baked; they still haven't found a can opener design that works really well in 50 years; they keep including a small knife blade when they could use that slot for a nail file (as Wenger has been doing for years); their wire stripper has never worked; they are only now starting to adapt to the fact that people no longer need a parcel hook, decades after the post office stopped allowing parcels to be wrapped with string; and their pliers have been second rate ever since they made their debut nearly 30 years ago.Meanwhile, Wenger at least tried to innovate: their scissors are better than the competition - the spring never breaks, never needs replacing; the can opener, while less intuitive, opens cans faster; they ditched the small knife and replaced it with a nail file and nail cleaner that could also be used as a Phillips head screwdriver (admittedly only if you grind the tip off a bit); and their pliers work well and are adjustable.In my view, as is so often the case in the business world, the company with the better product lost out to the company with the better P.R., logo and business model.
If you're looking for really radical SAK knives just look at some of what Wenger turned out: Minathor, Bernina, Giant, Reed Knife, and what is probably their biggest fiasco: Business Tool. One model wasn't enough, they made 4 models of this tool. Think of the cost that went into designing and producing these models. I don't doubt that this contributed to Wenger going belly up.Victorinox, on the other hand, has been relatively conservative in introducing new models, and many of their new ones are but minor modifications of earlier ones, thus reducing costs considerably.
Quote from: Beery on September 22, 2014, 03:04:49 PMQuote from: marduk on September 22, 2014, 12:02:05 AMIf you're looking for really radical SAK knives just look at some of what Wenger turned out: Minathor, Bernina, Giant, Reed Knife, and what is probably their biggest fiasco: Business Tool. One model wasn't enough, they made 4 models of this tool. Think of the cost that went into designing and producing these models. I don't doubt that this contributed to Wenger going belly up.Victorinox, on the other hand, has been relatively conservative in introducing new models, and many of their new ones are but minor modifications of earlier ones, thus reducing costs considerably.Yeah, but all of that contributed to the fact that Victorinox never fully dealt with their flaws: after 100 years their scissors are still half-baked; they still haven't found a can opener design that works really well in 50 years; they keep including a small knife blade when they could use that slot for a nail file (as Wenger has been doing for years); their wire stripper has never worked; they are only now starting to adapt to the fact that people no longer need a parcel hook, decades after the post office stopped allowing parcels to be wrapped with string; and their pliers have been second rate ever since they made their debut nearly 30 years ago.Meanwhile, Wenger at least tried to innovate: their scissors are better than the competition - the spring never breaks, never needs replacing; the can opener, while less intuitive, opens cans faster; they ditched the small knife and replaced it with a nail file and nail cleaner that could also be used as a Phillips head screwdriver (admittedly only if you grind the tip off a bit); and their pliers work well and are adjustable.In my view, as is so often the case in the business world, the company with the better product lost out to the company with the better P.R., logo and business model.My views exactly - not that I needed to remind anyone Don't worry I'll say no more.
In my mind Wenger didn’t improve but instead turned gimmicky-ish because they couldn’t just blatantly copy Vic designs that are thought out really well, objectively, with practicality in mind...
Quote from: firiki on September 23, 2014, 02:02:41 AMIn my mind Wenger didn’t improve but instead turned gimmicky-ish because they couldn’t just blatantly copy Vic designs that are thought out really well, objectively, with practicality in mind...LOL. "Vic designs that are thought out really well, objectively, with practicality in mind"? Can you look at the design of the Victorinox scissors or the pliers and still say that with a straight face? I couldn't.
And "gimmicky"? Ergonomic handles are a "gimmick"? Locking blades a "gimmick"? Springs for scissors and pliers that don't bend or snap in half a "gimmick"? A screwdriver that won't collapse under pressure a "gimmick"? Give me a fricken break! If they're gimmicks, why is Victorinox continuing to sell them? Why are they putting their logo on them? Your assertion doesn't make sense.
Quote from: firiki on September 23, 2014, 02:02:41 AMIn my mind Wenger didn’t improve but instead turned gimmicky-ish because they couldn’t just blatantly copy Vic designs that are thought out really well, objectively, with practicality in mind...LOL. "Vic designs that are thought out really well, objectively, with practicality in mind"? Can you look at the design of the Victorinox scissors or the pliers and still say that with a straight face? I couldn't.And "gimmicky"? Ergonomic handles are a "gimmick"? Locking blades a "gimmick"? Springs for scissors and pliers that don't bend or snap in half a "gimmick"? A screwdriver that won't collapse under pressure a "gimmick"? Give me a fricken break! If they're gimmicks, why is Victorinox continuing to sell them? Why are they putting their logo on them? Your assertion doesn't make sense.If it's true that Wenger didn't improve (and I don't see it, but just for argument's sake...), it must mean that they were better to begin with, because I'd take a pair of Wenger scissors anyday over the Vic alternative. Same with the pliers and the can opener. And nothing on a Victorinox knife (except perhaps the awl) is anything to write home about when compared with a similar product from Wenger - in general the two brands are about equal (as long as you don't consider the particular Wenger tools that I've mentioned). Also, Wenger weeded out the redundant small blade (which hasn't been truly worthwhile since the days of the freaking quill pen back in the 1820s!) and replaced it with the useful nail file. Victorinox still sells knives with two blades - it's ludicrous, but they can do it because they tell people they're the best and people believe them - and people even make up "reasons" to "need" two blades - that's how well the PR works! So Victorinox hasn't dumped the small blade or changed the design of the scissors in over a century - they were flawed to begin with and time hasn't improved them, but it doesn't matter, because a hefty marketing budget will always solve that problem.Having to sell replacement springs for scissors and pliers is not a mark of "designs that are thought out really well, objectively, with practicality in mind". On the contrary, it's the mark of poor design kept alive by a cunning marketing strategy that hypes the product so that no one realizes that what they're getting is mediocrity.Maybe you're right that Victorinox backed Wenger into a corner, but it wasn't through good design, that's for certain. Wenger had good designs and made good quality stuff, but when faced with a marketing behemoth like Victorinox, stuff like quality, good design and innovation don't matter.
Well at least you came to the discussion with an open mind Think what you will. No point in me replying to point out all the flaws in the arguement as you're clearly not prepared to consider any alternate views
Gentlemen, let's play nicely. The nice thing about this forum is everyone is allowed to express their opinion.
Ohh, I thought the thread was about Radical Vic designs , guess I was wrong...
I just want to say, I have had 4 busted vic scissor springs. As far as to which one is better, they are both about the same. I also I like both. I would however, like to see Vic take some ideas from Wegner/Delmont line and use them to update the Vic line. Scissors would be one. With or without serrated blades. Locking screwdriver. And the option to have a locking main blade.Nate
Quote from: ducttapetech on September 24, 2014, 01:19:00 PMI just want to say, I have had 4 busted vic scissor springs. As far as to which one is better, they are both about the same. I also I like both. I would however, like to see Vic take some ideas from Wegner/Delmont line and use them to update the Vic line. Scissors would be one. With or without serrated blades. Locking screwdriver. And the option to have a locking main blade.Nate+ 1 for non-serrated Wenger scrissors+ 1 for locking screwdriver+ 1 on replacing silly small blade with nail file