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Radical Victorinox Models

tosh · 84 · 7786

england Offline Beery

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #30 on: September 22, 2014, 08:48:23 PM
LOL. I guess criticism of Victorinox gets some folks' blood up. I didn't mean to start a row. Hey, they're just knives.
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gb Offline tosh

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #31 on: September 22, 2014, 08:56:00 PM
If you're looking for really radical SAK knives just look at some of what Wenger turned out: Minathor, Bernina, Giant, Reed Knife, and what is probably their biggest fiasco: Business Tool. One model wasn't enough, they made 4 models of this tool. Think of the cost that went into designing and producing these models. I don't doubt that this contributed to Wenger going belly up.
Victorinox, on the other hand, has been relatively conservative in introducing new models, and many of their new ones are but minor modifications of earlier ones, thus reducing costs considerably.

Yeah, but all of that contributed to the fact that Victorinox never fully dealt with their flaws: after 100 years their scissors are still half-baked; they still haven't found a can opener design that works really well in 50 years; they keep including a small knife blade when they could use that slot for a nail file (as Wenger has been doing for years); their wire stripper has never worked; they are only now starting to adapt to the fact that people no longer need a parcel hook, decades after the post office stopped allowing parcels to be wrapped with string; and their pliers have been second rate ever since they made their debut nearly 30 years ago.

Meanwhile, Wenger at least tried to innovate: their scissors are better than the competition - the spring never breaks, never needs replacing; the can opener, while less intuitive, opens cans faster; they ditched the small knife and replaced it with a nail file and nail cleaner that could also be used as a Phillips head screwdriver (admittedly only if you grind the tip off a bit); and their pliers work well and are adjustable.

In my view, as is so often the case in the business world, the company with the better product lost out to the company with the better P.R., logo and business model.

My views exactly - not that I needed to remind anyone  :whistle:

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gr Offline firiki

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #32 on: September 23, 2014, 02:02:41 AM
If you're looking for really radical SAK knives just look at some of what Wenger turned out: Minathor, Bernina, Giant, Reed Knife, and what is probably their biggest fiasco: Business Tool. One model wasn't enough, they made 4 models of this tool. Think of the cost that went into designing and producing these models. I don't doubt that this contributed to Wenger going belly up.
Victorinox, on the other hand, has been relatively conservative in introducing new models, and many of their new ones are but minor modifications of earlier ones, thus reducing costs considerably.

Yeah, but all of that contributed to the fact that Victorinox never fully dealt with their flaws: after 100 years their scissors are still half-baked; they still haven't found a can opener design that works really well in 50 years; they keep including a small knife blade when they could use that slot for a nail file (as Wenger has been doing for years); their wire stripper has never worked; they are only now starting to adapt to the fact that people no longer need a parcel hook, decades after the post office stopped allowing parcels to be wrapped with string; and their pliers have been second rate ever since they made their debut nearly 30 years ago.

Meanwhile, Wenger at least tried to innovate: their scissors are better than the competition - the spring never breaks, never needs replacing; the can opener, while less intuitive, opens cans faster; they ditched the small knife and replaced it with a nail file and nail cleaner that could also be used as a Phillips head screwdriver (admittedly only if you grind the tip off a bit); and their pliers work well and are adjustable.

In my view, as is so often the case in the business world, the company with the better product lost out to the company with the better P.R., logo and business model.

My views exactly - not that I needed to remind anyone  :whistle:

Don't worry I'll say no more.

I agree that this is often the case, but not here.

By conviction I’m not a fan boy even if I have my preferences as to what brands I buy and why. Companies just want to sell me stuff so I have to choose my tools and things as best as I can to get the most value for money from them and this is where I think Wenger lost it, business model. I’ll explain after a small narration.

I’ve always wondered what some people saw in Wenger knives that made them swear by its name. There can be numerous reasons to pick a Wenger to a Vic, size, looks, or availability over time and many more. Personally, I found out there was Wenger too in late 90’s, after around 12 years of knowing Vic as the Swiss Army Knife’s maker when I was a kid. A friend had brought a Snife from Austria, she showed me and I knew the difference instantly. I was, of course, very intrigued to have a look at it after which I was quite disappointed. Not bad but could be better, was my verdict and I lost interest in Wenger right then.

Over the last year I’ve been picking up some of  their models I’d fancy in my selection of Wengers – NB not a collection – and I’ve got plenty of complaints from the company that gave a 5-year guarantee (not many knife makers do that I’d think) for their products.

More specifically there’s a Metal 50 that I like a lot, also known as the “coffin-scaled Traveller” which is considered a premium product and priced accordingly that left the factory which an obvious defect on the can opener. Something went wrong during grinding and there is a nice, ugly crack 4mm tall X 2mm deep into the can opener’s edge and a splinter of metal sitting proud right it the middle of the side where the nail nick is. As a result I got that one with a great discount to use as a beater. I have twelve of them now and four have some defect on them. Perhaps I got all the lemons from three places, I don’t know.

The others are a ’94 Professional series with one of the two backsprings charred on the inside, something went wrong with quenching? Works fine but still.

A Evolution ST 17 with noticeable but negligible lateral play on the bottle opener. This is one of the knives that really make me wonder about Wenger. I like it a lot, I would have loved it unconditionally if there were a metal file/saw instead of the wood saw and the lovely rubber handles felt better set on the rest of the SAK. Awful tweezers.

Finally, a New Ranger 63 I got for food prep on the road for ease of cleaning. Another lovely knife, though the contoured handles that give it a nice grip make anything with more than one layer feel bulky in that frame and they still don’t feel solidly set unlike Vics. The worst of all is that this knife with a corkscrew on the back came with a rough edge. It will cut paper purely because it was ground to a thin edge but it wasn’t sharpened properly. The guy, with whom I honestly sympathise, had one job and I’ll have to do it for me. Might be better.

Where I’m getting at is that in my opinion Wenger eventually tried to cash in their “Swissness” and the SAK’s reputation by trying really hard to differentiate their products from their adversary’s, as was done since the beginning with that army contract. That’s fine by me even though I don’t really like copycats that cannot improve the original concept. In my mind Wenger didn’t improve but instead turned gimmicky-ish because they couldn’t just blatantly copy Vic designs that are thought out really well, objectively, with practicality in mind. Versatility was the key to the SAK’s success, not miniature versions of over-speSmurfpillsed tools. There’s no mass market for those and their pricing, at least here, is simply ridiculous by itself let alone when compared to Vic counterparts. I admit being a little biased against Wenger because of seeing them only in "experienced" places that trade in prestigious goods and it seemed ridicilous, paying more for less material, less design and less function and still think I've got a SAK de luxe   

I have reached the conclusion that both brands have a place in my life but I’d choose Vic in a heartbeat because they are much more orientated towards constantly delivering good quality with no bells and whistles, which, considering our times could be seen as radical in a way. Electronics on SAKs are awful by the way, they have no place there if you ask me. I’ve had a few Vic lemons as well but proportionately Wenger was has been far more consistent with those. I think that tells us something.

Having said all that, I feel I should credit Wenger its merit. They made high quality knives and had some nice moments in their production and they did come up with snap-on scales, which was a breakthrough I should think.

Disclaimer: No, I don’t work for Vic’s PR nor am I starting a flame war.

Cheers Tosh, welcome to the forums Beery.

Rambling over.
Omnia vincit amor. Vae victis.


gb Offline tosh

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #33 on: September 23, 2014, 01:26:06 PM
Much praise has been lavished on the new Evo Scaled products under the vic logo.
But, in my eye all vic has done is merely tweaked the design. That's easy, any one of us here could find fault with any current SAK/MT. I take my hat off to Wenger for having the Guts to have a go. Remember that vic churns out something like 22,000,000 SAKs per year as opposed to Wengers meagre 2,500,000!! It was obvious that given the huge difference in both production volume and retail shelf space that Wenger would always be in vics shadow.

The whole reason why I started this thread was to highlight exactly what's just been discussed. There's no need for me to add anything else, we can all make our own views.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 01:29:10 PM by tosh »
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ch Offline Etherealicer

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #34 on: September 23, 2014, 02:00:11 PM
 :b2t:

Other radical things introduced by Victorinox:
Victorinox actually has a lot of pretty radical scale tools:
- Ball marker for Golfer
- Barometer
- Clock (Analog & Digital)
- Laser Pointer
- Pin slot
- Pen (Removable or Retractable)
- Toothpick (according to SAKWiki, introduced by Victorinox in 1942)
- Tweezers (since 1902), yes they are radical, or at least were at that time
- Tweezers with Scale
- Whistle

Layer Tools that are quite unique to Victorinox:
- Cut & Picker Blade
- Cuticle Pusher
- Hoof Cleaner
- Hook
- Orange Peeler
- Pharmaceutical Spatula
- USB-Flash Drive

The list is quite long and many of this things we do not perceive as radical because they lasted and are now quite ordinary, especially the scale tools (toothpick, tweezers and pen).


Radical "SAK" Designs
Swiss Card (I don't know if that was a Victorinox invention)
Golf Tool
CyberTool
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england Offline Beery

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #35 on: September 23, 2014, 09:53:27 PM
In my mind Wenger didn’t improve but instead turned gimmicky-ish because they couldn’t just blatantly copy Vic designs that are thought out really well, objectively, with practicality in mind...

LOL. "Vic designs that are thought out really well, objectively, with practicality in mind"? Can you look at the design of the Victorinox scissors or the pliers and still say that with a straight face? I couldn't.

And "gimmicky"? Ergonomic handles are a "gimmick"? Locking blades a "gimmick"? Springs for scissors and pliers that don't bend or snap in half a "gimmick"? A screwdriver that won't collapse under pressure a "gimmick"? Give me a fricken break! If they're gimmicks, why is Victorinox continuing to sell them? Why are they putting their logo on them? Your assertion doesn't make sense.

If it's true that Wenger didn't improve (and I don't see it, but just for argument's sake...), it must mean that they were better to begin with, because I'd take a pair of Wenger scissors anyday over the Vic alternative. Same with the pliers and the can opener. And nothing on a Victorinox knife (except perhaps the awl) is anything to write home about when compared with a similar product from Wenger - in general the two brands are about equal (as long as you don't consider the particular Wenger tools that I've mentioned). Also, Wenger weeded out the redundant small blade (which hasn't been truly worthwhile since the days of the freaking quill pen back in the 1820s!) and replaced it with the useful nail file. Victorinox still sells knives with two blades - it's ludicrous, but they can do it because they tell people they're the best and people believe them - and people even make up "reasons" to "need" two blades - that's how well the PR works! So Victorinox hasn't dumped the small blade or changed the design of the scissors in over a century - they were flawed to begin with and time hasn't improved them, but it doesn't matter, because a hefty marketing budget will always solve that problem.

Having to sell replacement springs for scissors and pliers is not a mark of "designs that are thought out really well, objectively, with practicality in mind". On the contrary, it's the mark of poor design kept alive by a cunning marketing strategy that hypes the product so that no one realizes that what they're getting is mediocrity.

Maybe you're right that Victorinox backed Wenger into a corner, but it wasn't through good design, that's for certain. Wenger had good designs and made good quality stuff, but when faced with a marketing behemoth like Victorinox, stuff like quality, good design and innovation don't matter.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 10:17:47 PM by Beery »
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ch Offline Etherealicer

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #36 on: September 23, 2014, 10:54:26 PM
In my mind Wenger didn’t improve but instead turned gimmicky-ish because they couldn’t just blatantly copy Vic designs that are thought out really well, objectively, with practicality in mind...

LOL. "Vic designs that are thought out really well, objectively, with practicality in mind"? Can you look at the design of the Victorinox scissors or the pliers and still say that with a straight face? I couldn't.
I prefer Vic Scissors. Have been using them for 30 years or so and not once had a broken spring. Although I also never abuse them.

And "gimmicky"? Ergonomic handles are a "gimmick"? Locking blades a "gimmick"? Springs for scissors and pliers that don't bend or snap in half a "gimmick"? A screwdriver that won't collapse under pressure a "gimmick"? Give me a fricken break! If they're gimmicks, why is Victorinox continuing to sell them? Why are they putting their logo on them? Your assertion doesn't make sense.
No one claims that the Ergonomic handles are gimmicky. They might be Wengers best innovation, although it comes at the price of bulkiness.
Gimmicky are Wenger tools, like the business tool, the Minathor, SGTs etc.
And of course both Wenger and Vic pliers are a bit gimmicky. Again, depending on what you do, you might prefer one over the other. I prefer the Vic (although I prefer to not have either one), because I mostly used it to pull jumpers or fish out screws I dropped into a PC case.

So you see with both scissors and pliers there are different preferences. Proofing that its impossible to make a "best" tool.



That said, this discussion is about radical design of Victorinox. Question is, how useful are those radical designs apart from being collectible?

I mean SwissCard, GolfTool and CyberTool are pretty popular and many people carry them but the others (Autotool, Sports Ratchet, Swissbit mp3, legendary butane lighters) anyone EDC those?
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gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #37 on: September 23, 2014, 11:30:03 PM
In my mind Wenger didn’t improve but instead turned gimmicky-ish because they couldn’t just blatantly copy Vic designs that are thought out really well, objectively, with practicality in mind...

LOL. "Vic designs that are thought out really well, objectively, with practicality in mind"? Can you look at the design of the Victorinox scissors or the pliers and still say that with a straight face? I couldn't.

And "gimmicky"? Ergonomic handles are a "gimmick"? Locking blades a "gimmick"? Springs for scissors and pliers that don't bend or snap in half a "gimmick"? A screwdriver that won't collapse under pressure a "gimmick"? Give me a fricken break! If they're gimmicks, why is Victorinox continuing to sell them? Why are they putting their logo on them? Your assertion doesn't make sense.

If it's true that Wenger didn't improve (and I don't see it, but just for argument's sake...), it must mean that they were better to begin with, because I'd take a pair of Wenger scissors anyday over the Vic alternative. Same with the pliers and the can opener. And nothing on a Victorinox knife (except perhaps the awl) is anything to write home about when compared with a similar product from Wenger - in general the two brands are about equal (as long as you don't consider the particular Wenger tools that I've mentioned). Also, Wenger weeded out the redundant small blade (which hasn't been truly worthwhile since the days of the freaking quill pen back in the 1820s!) and replaced it with the useful nail file. Victorinox still sells knives with two blades - it's ludicrous, but they can do it because they tell people they're the best and people believe them - and people even make up "reasons" to "need" two blades - that's how well the PR works! So Victorinox hasn't dumped the small blade or changed the design of the scissors in over a century - they were flawed to begin with and time hasn't improved them, but it doesn't matter, because a hefty marketing budget will always solve that problem.

Having to sell replacement springs for scissors and pliers is not a mark of "designs that are thought out really well, objectively, with practicality in mind". On the contrary, it's the mark of poor design kept alive by a cunning marketing strategy that hypes the product so that no one realizes that what they're getting is mediocrity.

Maybe you're right that Victorinox backed Wenger into a corner, but it wasn't through good design, that's for certain. Wenger had good designs and made good quality stuff, but when faced with a marketing behemoth like Victorinox, stuff like quality, good design and innovation don't matter.

I disagree with quite a lot of this, Beery.

I think the "ergonomic" scales, aren't really that ergonomic at all. A plain scaled SAK (from either makers), allows whatever grip you want, whereas when you shift/change your grip on scales that are trying to dictate that you hold it a certain way, it doesn't always work too well. As for the ranger series, they were utterly ridiculous in respect of how much bulk they add to a knife, and almost rendered the Rangergrip 90 unwieldy for me.

Locking blades on 85mm SAKs are 100% gimmicky for me. Absolutely no reason for them whatsoever. They impede ergos even worse than the "ergonomic" scales, require you to put a digit in the path of the blade to release them, and offer no increased safety to anyone who can already operate a pocket knife properly.

Wenger vs Vic Scissors. Vic works better on fingernails and delicate tasks, whereas Wenger works better on materials that might push out of smooth bladed scissors. Beyond that it's purely personal taste. I quite like Wenger scissors, because the knives generally come with a nail file. If this were not the case, I'd not carry Wengers as frequently. I've never broke a Vic scissor spring, and consider their scissors one of the best in the business.

Pliers - I don't like either personally, but of the two I'd have to choose the Vic ones. I like the slip joint concept and the lever mechanism of the Wengers, but not the way they "lift" at the tip when you close them. Small pliers that move away from what you are trying to grip, defeats the purpose of having small pliers

Second blade vs nail file. As mentioned above, Wenger scissors without a nail file would be a problem for me, though a lot of my vic users don't have redundancy either. My 1970's outdoorsmans have serrated main blades, and pruner blades to buddy them up. My compact, yeoman and timekeeper have the combo tool, The pioneers have the awl ... or a pruner blade depending on the model. There are other options for those who don't want a spear blade and pen blade

You also fail to bring some of Wenger's odder tools into the mix to balance your arguement. That tiny mag glass on that obelisk of metal. Absolutely no reason whatsoever for it to be that long! It could have taken up half that layer. The "punch" vs Vic's awl. Putting the aligator wrench in the middle of their fatter knives, so you can't get the wrench anywhere near low enough to the nut due to the scales and other layers lifting it off. The space wasting compass layer - same syndrome as the mag glass. The fact that they wouldn't have compromised themselves so badly as to need bailing out by Victorinox had it not been for the Business Tool .... they killed the company with a mad cap stapler  (which I quite like actually  :P) ... are you going to blame that on Vic too?

Don't get me wrong, I love the non-locking 85mm Wengers. The Traveller is certainly a big favourite of mine. I like the smaller frame of the 84mm Vic and 85mm Wenger knives. There's still definitely a place for Vic in my carry though, and at this time I think I have a few more Vic knives than Wengers.

You're quite entitled to your opinion matey, but that doesn't mean the Vic fans are wrong or just mindlessly following the flock. A lot of users here have spent a long time trying out a great many tools and forming their own conclusions. Though in fairness, theirs may still change in time ... as might yours  :cheers:


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england Offline Beery

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #38 on: September 24, 2014, 03:10:58 AM
The springs on scissors and pliers bending and breaking is not a matter of "taste" - it is a flaw. Wenger pliers and scissors don't have this flaw. Adjustable pliers are more useful than pliers that don't adjust. This is not a matter of personal taste - one is objectively better than the other. A slight raising of the tool head upon closing is a nit-pick compared with the glaring issue of the Victorinox tool being inferior in its basic function! Locking blades are better than non-locking blades - that's why all serious folding survival knives have locking blades - how they lock is secondary. Ergonomic scales are there to aid in gripping the knife when using the most dangerous tools - to demand that they work when using every tool is ridiculous! Your points either miss the point or are nitpicks.

As for my "not mentioning" Wenger's odder tools, I did indeed mention the awl, so there goes that criticism. As for the more esoteric tools, they tend to be on the "gift" and "Wow look at me" knives. I mean, the compass? Give me a break - these are effectively just toys, and that applies to the Vic ones as much as the Wenger ones. No serious outdoorsman or survivalist uses a SAK compass, digital clock, altimeter, barometer, thermometer or a magnifier! These "tools" are on knives that effectively exist purely as "presents for the guy who has everything". I mean, is anyone going to routinely carry around a knife with 10+ layers like the Wenger S54 or the SwissChamp XAVT? I don't think so. The important tools are the ones that are most common - the ones that most people will actually use, and here (with the exception of the awl) Wenger wins, hands down.

Look, clearly there are a lot of Victorinox fans here. I used to be one too - I bought the hype, hook, line and sinker for THREE DECADES. But eventually I had to look at the tools with my engineer's hat on, and while Victorinox knives are adequate, in engineering terms Wenger's are made better. You can pick nits with Wenger's products and dance around the issues all you want, but the fact is, in terms of what actually matters (i.e. getting the job done and not breaking), Wenger's tools are better engineered. This is not just my opinion - it's a fact.

And a true Victorinox fan would be trying to improve the brand, not defending mediocrity. No one ever helped a company to improve by stifling criticism.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 03:18:57 AM by Beery »
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gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #39 on: September 24, 2014, 03:27:12 AM
Well at least you came to the discussion with an open mind  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Think what you will. No point in me replying to point out all the flaws in the arguement as you're clearly not prepared to consider any alternate views  :salute:


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nz Offline zoidberg

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #40 on: September 24, 2014, 03:31:05 AM
 :rofl:


nz Offline zoidberg

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #41 on: September 24, 2014, 03:31:19 AM
 :facepalm:


nz Offline zoidberg

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #42 on: September 24, 2014, 03:31:30 AM
 :rofl:


england Offline Beery

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #43 on: September 24, 2014, 03:38:38 AM
Well at least you came to the discussion with an open mind  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Think what you will. No point in me replying to point out all the flaws in the arguement as you're clearly not prepared to consider any alternate views  :salute:

I just did consider your argument. The fact that I answered all your points should kinda clue you in. :bnghd:

And it's kinda rich you accusing me of not considering your argument, when none of you have seriously considered mine. I mean, I'd love to see how any of you defend that scissors/pliers spring issue. I'd love to hear how a spring that bends and breaks makes a Vic better than an SAK that doesn't do either of those things. Why is everyone so quiet on that issue I wonder? I've brought it up time after time, but apart from Etherealicer's assertion that it hasn't happened to him (as if that means it has never happened to anyone) all I see is people dancing around it, desperately looking for straw men to burn down.

Look, you're more than welcome to ignore what I have to say and go on enjoying Victorinox products. Heck, your "team" won the war between Vic and Wenger. All I'm trying to do is get you past the hype, which is what I wish someone had done for me 25+ years ago. If more people had tuned out the marketing, Victorinox might be a better company right now, producing better tools.

But hey, if you don't want to listen, it's not going to be that big a deal. After all, they're only pocket knives. We're not solving world hunger here.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 03:48:31 AM by Beery »
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us Offline jerseydevil

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #44 on: September 24, 2014, 03:46:26 AM
Gentlemen, let's play nicely.  The nice thing about this forum is everyone is allowed to express their opinion.
There's no such thing as "Too pretty to carry".  There's only "Too pretty NOT to carry"...... >:D


gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #45 on: September 24, 2014, 04:10:55 AM
 :D

Yeah, I'll play nicely :D :D :D :D

I'll pick up on ONE of the items I disagree with to start off, and see how we go with that  ;)

Let's focus on the accusation of Vic's scissors being a flaw over Wenger's design excellence for a moment. You say you have an engineers hat, so I'm guessing you are probably aware that all springs are susceptible to fatigue and stress fractures over time.  The Wenger design uses a lever to get the spring action from the backspring, whereas the Vics have a smaller replacable spring (which as yet has never failed me) on the scissors themselves. Should the Wenger spring fail the knife (or at least the scissors element) is kaput, but the Vics have a replaceable component.

So Victorinox have designed in the ability to repair components which are by their very nature inherrently prone to failure, but Wenger have not ... even though historically their springs haven't been as robust or resilient as Vics. Does this still sound like Wenger's design is superior? Or could you possibly accept that there is a design advantage to the Vic's scissors, even if the overall design is not to your liking?


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ro Offline Corwyn

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #46 on: September 24, 2014, 07:35:04 AM
Gentlemen, let's play nicely.  The nice thing about this forum is everyone is allowed to express their opinion.

True, this is what I love about this forum... even if people feel strongly about one thing or another, they acknowledge the others too.
There is plenty of air for everybody in the market without putting down other's opinions. The true enemy are the Chinese knock-offs, the TSA and the retarded local laws.

I have 20 Vics and 8 Wengers. I've been edcing a Wenger Traveller for months now (because of the nailfile, fat blade, gorgeous Onyx Strellson scales and the fact I got a great Wenger sheath on sale). Engineering is a matter of taste but quality-wise it's leaps and bounds below any Victorinox I have (factory-bent, flimsy, uneven corkscrew, dodgy opening can opener which catches the can on upstroke, floppy awl, scratchy file and a toothpick that broke off at first use...) And that's a post-2005 Wenger, when Vic cracked down on their QC... basically all pre-2005 Wengers I have are unusable (cracked scales, shot liners and springs etc. - yes most are from TSA, but the Vics are from there as well...).

PS: I didn't want to say anything about design, but do hate the Wenger Scrissors too. The scrissors spring on my S16  is shot, no way to replace it and the serrations make it useless for nails and paper (and really these are 80% of what we cut) - really hoped Delemont range would do away with those serrations.  :-\
Corwyn of Multitool, the First of His name, King of Victorinox, King of Leatherman, Gerber and the First Generation SOG, Lord of the Seven Wrenches, Protector of the Forum, Khal of the Bushes, called Corwyn Toolborn, the Unsharpened, Father of SAKs.


gb Offline tosh

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #47 on: September 24, 2014, 08:39:25 AM
Well at least you came to the discussion with an open mind  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Think what you will. No point in me replying to point out all the flaws in the arguement as you're clearly not prepared to consider any alternate views  :salute:

lol  :rofl:

Well that's the kettle calling the pot black!! such arrogance.

Beery is a newbie with what.....10posts!!
And already he's expected to bow down to (ahem) peer pressure.
I agree with everything he said.
It was the real reason why I started the thread in the first instance.
There is no denying that Victorinox dominated the SAK market once - but times change and so do company's.

Today Victorinox is bland and boring - relying solely on its past with superb marketing strategies. The sad fact is that Vic now holds ALL the cards!! Both patents for Victorinox and Wenger thus preventing anyone else coming to the table.

So there you have it. Like what you're offered because there simply isn't an alternative.

Please remember this is a forum to discuss and air views - not dictate.
To newcomers it must appear very cliquey!
I don't claim to know it all, but what I do know is right.


ch Offline Etherealicer

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #48 on: September 24, 2014, 08:50:57 AM
Ohh, I thought the thread was about Radical Vic designs :think:, guess I was wrong...
It wouldn't be the internet without people complaining.


gr Offline firiki

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #49 on: September 24, 2014, 10:38:49 AM
About Vic scissors/pliers spring, I think that in most cases one could bend it once it's broken and it would still work well.

I did that to a Classic and I kept using it daily for a year before I replaced it. It didn't provide the same leverage but it helped me get the job done.

Omnia vincit amor. Vae victis.


au Offline gregozedobe

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #50 on: September 24, 2014, 10:58:44 AM
Ohh, I thought the thread was about Radical Vic designs :think:, guess I was wrong...
2,143 posts and you are making comments about an MTo thread being "off-topic"  !!!!     ;)   :pok:  :pok:  :twak: 


I actually enjoy a good discussion, even if it gets a bit heated.  That just shows the participants care a lot about something.  However, it is worth remembering that most of what is written here are opinions rather than cast-iron "facts", and others are entitled to hold opinions that differ to yours, regardless of how strongly you may believe them.

So everyone please continue playing, and by all means justify your opinions, but show some respect for people who disagree with you ........   :tu:
babola: "Enjoy your tools and don't be afraid to air your opinion and feelings here, but do it in courteous and respectable way toward others, of course."


gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #51 on: September 24, 2014, 12:09:20 PM
Firstly, apologies to anyone if I got their back up last night. It was 3AM and I'd had few libations, so I "took the bait" when I otherwise might not have done  :drink:

That said, I still agree with all the specific Vic vs Wenger opinions I offered last night. Like I've said before, I like Vic AND Wenger, but there are several ways of looking at each tool design. One man's meat is another mans poison, and I've had my opinions on tools changed numerous time due the the insights and experiences of the great people here  :cheers: I love the Wenger scissor design, though I think I'd still prefer them to be serration free (not sure how that would affect performance on certain materials though), but I also like that you can easily fix the Vic ones if they break and spare parts are told specifically for the task.

The Wenger pliers are still a love/hate thing too for me. On the 85mm it's that "lift" when you use them. The "fixed" jaw on mine actually moves about 10mm from open to closed, and for fine gripping tasks I've found this to be a real pain as you have to try and compensate for this by moving the knife as you close the jaws. I also think the Vics are stronger (spring aside) though again that size adjustment on the Wenger is great

The 130mm ones are FANTASTIC but I'm a little concerned about how strong they are. All the force goes to a little nub on the side of the cast plier head, and now that Wenger is Vic Delemont, I don't know that I'd get my Rangergrip 90 replaced on a like for like basis or just offered "nearest equivalent"

I can't offer anymore Victorinox radical designs, though I was thinking, how many of these were actually successful? I think the Spirit (more than the Swisstool) and Cybertool are rare cases where they introduced something totally new that actually became a real hit.


The cantankerous but occasionally useful member, formally known as 50ft-trad


us Offline GigaHz

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #52 on: September 24, 2014, 12:14:36 PM
To call a scissor spring a design flaw is just beyond me. It has been in use for 100 years. I much prefer the precision of the Vic scissors over the Wengers. I don't like the bouncing or the serrations. To call one way a flaw? They are just two different approaches to the same problem. I use mine all the time and never broke a spring. Vics just seem more precise, as the Wengers took a cruder more durable approach. I also much prefer the Vic pliers. They are always open when I need them. I use the pliers 10-20 times a day to pull off industrial strength adhesive stickers on test equipment. Once the pliers are open, one hand use. The Wenger version to me are not one handed.

This reminds me of Beta vs VHS.


gb Offline tosh

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #53 on: September 24, 2014, 01:07:32 PM
Ohh, I thought the thread was about Radical Vic designs :think:, guess I was wrong...

Not at all infact on the contrary - Victorinox have released some great ideas (some good/some bad) over the years - a stark contrast to what we're offered today.
Some of their ideas which have been posted here prove that they were once a dynamic company.
I don't claim to know it all, but what I do know is right.


us Offline ducttapetech

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #54 on: September 24, 2014, 01:19:00 PM
I just want to say, I have had 4 busted vic scissor springs. As far as to which one is better, they are both about the same. I also I like both. I would however, like to see Vic take some ideas from Wegner/Delmont line and use them to update the Vic line. Scissors would be one. With or without serrated blades. Locking screwdriver. And the option to have a locking main blade on a 91mm frame or an Alox frame.
Nate
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 01:23:31 PM by ducttapetech »
Nate

SEND IT!


ro Offline Corwyn

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #55 on: September 24, 2014, 01:22:13 PM
I just want to say, I have had 4 busted vic scissor springs. As far as to which one is better, they are both about the same. I also I like both. I would however, like to see Vic take some ideas from Wegner/Delmont line and use them to update the Vic line. Scissors would be one. With or without serrated blades. Locking screwdriver. And the option to have a locking main blade.
Nate

+ 1 for non-serrated Wenger scrissors
+ 1 for locking screwdriver
+ 1 on replacing silly small blade with nail file
Corwyn of Multitool, the First of His name, King of Victorinox, King of Leatherman, Gerber and the First Generation SOG, Lord of the Seven Wrenches, Protector of the Forum, Khal of the Bushes, called Corwyn Toolborn, the Unsharpened, Father of SAKs.


us Offline ducttapetech

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #56 on: September 24, 2014, 01:25:04 PM
I think it would be nice to have the nailfile as an option, but I like having the small blade myself. Ofcoarse, I tend to carry bigger models that have the metalfile. One that don't have the metalfile would be a good option. Or better yet, file on the hook.

Nate
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 01:27:16 PM by ducttapetech »
Nate

SEND IT!


de Offline coSAK

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #57 on: September 24, 2014, 01:42:29 PM
How about
- large serrated blade
- small blade
- nail file on every hook?

Sounds much better to me.
WANTED: Red Farmer, Red Harvester, Soldier/SI 1975, Genuine Horn scales, Wenger 19th Hole Cigar Cutter


england Offline Beery

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #58 on: September 24, 2014, 02:24:10 PM
I just want to say, I have had 4 busted vic scissor springs. As far as to which one is better, they are both about the same. I also I like both. I would however, like to see Vic take some ideas from Wegner/Delmont line and use them to update the Vic line. Scissors would be one. With or without serrated blades. Locking screwdriver. And the option to have a locking main blade.
Nate

+ 1 for non-serrated Wenger scrissors
+ 1 for locking screwdriver
+ 1 on replacing silly small blade with nail file

I agree with both of you. I've seen at least three Vic knives with broken scissor springs, and while three or four in 30 years is not much, when we take into account that I've only ever used maybe six or seven SAKs (on a regular basis) in my life, it's a lot.

I'm not taking the position (as some seem to think) that Wenger is the be-all and end-all of SAK development. That's a straw man. What I am saying is that neither is Victorinox, and that they could and should learn from what Wenger did right. Why this is a controversial view that causes people to get all upset is a mystery to me. Heck, Victorinox fans should be the FIRST to be lobbying for Victorinox to improve, because if the company just sits on its laurels, some other company will come along, probably from China, and do what Victorinox does, but better and cheaper. History is strewn with huge corporations who, just as they thought they'd got the market in the palm of their hands, got undercut by tiny companies who did things better. That is what happens when companies don't feel the need to improve their products.

There are few radical Victorinox products because Victorinox is not, and never has been, a company driven to innovate. The evolution of the Victorinox scissors (from 1902 to the present) shows this clearly:



The biggest innovation was in 1975, when they made the spring longer and put a bend in it to improve the way the spring works. But this did not address the basic flaw with the design, which is that the spring is external and prone to break, either where it attaches to the knife, or where the bend is. Wenger's lever-type integral spring design (an innovation Wenger pioneered in 1972) overcomes this problem, protecting the spring from damage:

« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 02:43:04 PM by Beery »
"See all, 'eer all, say nowt.
Eyt all, sup all, pay nowt.
An' if tha ivver duz owt for nowt,
allus do it fer thi-sen."


nz Offline zoidberg

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Re: Radical Victorinox Models
Reply #59 on: September 24, 2014, 02:37:26 PM
 :-X


 

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