Man tries to rob a person with a pellet gun - gets shot by real gun.

[captain spaulding]

How the world looks at one another is interesting.  Its all perception and based on ones own life path.  To say we should all react or behave in a certain manner is just not sensible.  There are way to many variable to say there is a correct way to behave in a stressful situation let alone in this particular one.   

I've seen good people under certain circumstances behave in an intense manner.  I'll again agree with MrW in respect to how we "feel" we might behave in similar circumstances vs how we'd actually behave.  If it's the gun ownership issue that stands out for some then that subject is equally and hotly debated over here as well. 

I guess the bottom line for me is the old man is alive and many more potential victims were prevented. I cant imagine the dead guy was a novice as my life's experience has told be when one brings a "gun" to commit a crime he's been around the block a few times ( if you know what I mean ).

Even if it was his first "crime" of this sort it probably would not of been his last and even if it was his one and only crime of this sort he rolled the dice and lost. I feel no sympathy for him.

[SAK Guy]

Exactly. Pull a gun (real or fake) and use it in a robbery and you better expect to die. Simple as that.

Hmm, under such circumstances it indeed might be better to directly kill or cripple the victim first, before taking his money. Better go to jail than get killed.

Such opinions only lead to an spiral of escalation of violence.

Unfortunately, this is a standard method used by a majority of thugs over here.....

[Higgins617]

Exactly. Pull a gun (real or fake) and use it in a robbery and you better expect to die. Simple as that.

Hmm, under such circumstances it indeed might be better to directly kill or cripple the victim first, before taking his money. Better go to jail than get killed.

Such opinions only lead to an spiral of escalation of violence.

Unfortunately, this is a standard method used by a majority of thugs over here.....

Yup, there's usually about 5-10 armed robberies of students at my school a month. The latest plan was to sprint up behind people and punch or hit them in the back of the head then rob them and run...... Needless to say, don't feel entirely safe walking around here.

[captain spaulding]

Exactly. Pull a gun (real or fake) and use it in a robbery and you better expect to die. Simple as that.

Hmm, under such circumstances it indeed might be better to directly kill or cripple the victim first, before taking his money. Better go to jail than get killed.

Such opinions only lead to an spiral of escalation of violence.

Sooo..... Your suggesting we should make the criminals feel less threatened and make ourselves easy targets so they don't hurt/kill us when they want to rob someone. 

[firiki]

         Warnung;



        Hot tamales.

Let me start by sharing with you all the fact that my father was shot blind in a hunting accident when he was 13.

Now, that doesn't hinder me in the slightest in understanding the (ultimately doubtful for me*) usefulness of a good gun and the excitment it can cause, especially with loads of good, cheap ammo available. Cheap ammo doesn't mean guns are inexpensive though, far from it. BTW, the word for trigger in greek is scandali.

Being the treehugger I am and a bloody pacifist by conviction as well I can argue that easy access to candy often helps get rotten teeth sooner than later and I call the shooting sprees at schools in the USA, a thing I fail to comprehend. I can only echo Lichtbote's opinions all while accepting the points about the assailant getting what he deserved.

I cannot help but wonder how he ended up acting like this. I can also add that the dead was a black yougnster and there seems to be an escalation of shootings against those lately. I gather a latino girl was shot inside a precinct for seeming suspicious Could these two cases share some common elements? A fair question, I believe.

Not going further political here. I understand (the NRA likes) the constitutional right to bear arms and how it occurs historically to defend the people against the tyrants, the oppressors and the invaders. However, I prefer my country's last article of the Constitution that calls me, should the need arise, to uphold said Constitution by any means I see fit if I believe in it and I wouldn't have the right to bear arms added in it.

*Excepting two-barrel hunting guns and rifles maybe.

[insert song]War / No more trouble[/insert song] by Bob Marley

[Lichtbote]

No, i´m not suggesting anything that way. Do whatever you want. As long as you have a consensus about that within your country everything is fine.
 
But i have my opinions regarding a lot of things that differs greatly to many US-citizens opinion.

[lister]

If I am not mistaken the crime rate is highly corelated with social inequality? So why not bash the culture that produced the victim an the criminal? And from here on I would get political so... 

Ps: has anybody noticed that I was able to give two likes to one post? What is up with that? 

[AimlessWanderer]

Civility is a misnomer.

Civility is merely obedience to an artificial social construct.

At the heart of the matter, people are animals, even though we pretend that we have elevated ourselves into a higher form. Some of us are well trained and very obedient, regulated and rewarded by societies positive and negative conditioning. We sit, and beg, and do tricks as taugh to us and demanded by our masters (parents, teachers, employers, legal system) However, just like dogs and any other animals, some of us are too driven by our animalistic instincts to be restrained by societal rules. Virtually all of us given the right provocation will revert back to our animalistic nature (think road rage)

Some societies take the approach that we should all have the right to arms ourselves against those of an animalistic nature, whereas others would be happier with us being kept closer to heel. People will still be animals though. Whatever you do, they will lash out especially when they feel vulnerable. The trained and placid will still have their whirling dirvish moments too.

I do not believe in arming the animals around me

I also will not mourn the parasite who lost his life for attempting to prey on a "weaker" man

[firiki]

No, i´m not suggesting anything that way. Do whatever you want. As long as you have a consensus about that within your country everything is fine.
 
But i have my opinions regarding a lot of things that differs greatly to many US-citizens opinion.

I agree. I was talking about how I prefer restrictions on guns and how "an eye for an eye will make the world blind" -to quote M.Ghandi. Sorry if I made you appear to say something you didn't, I must have missed that

[zoidberg]

Ps: has anybody noticed that I was able to give two likes to one post? What is up with that? 

Can you do it again?

[firiki]

Civility is a misnomer.

Civility is merely obedience to an artificial social construct.

At the heart of the matter, people are animals, even though we pretend that we have elevated ourselves into a higher form. Some of us are well trained and very obedient, regulated and rewarded by societies positive and negative conditioning. We sit, and beg, and do tricks as taugh to us and demanded by our masters (parents, teachers, employers, legal system) However, just like dogs and any other animals, some of us are too driven by our animalistic instincts to be restrained by societal rules. Virtually all of us given the right provocation will revert back to our animalistic nature (think road rage)

Some societies take the approach that we should all have the right to arms ourselves against those of an animalistic nature, whereas others would be happier with us being kept closer to heel. People will still be animals though. Whatever you do, they will lash out especially when they feel vulnerable. The trained and placid will still have their whirling dirvish moments too.

I do not believe in arming the animals around me

I also will not mourn the parasite who lost his life for attempting to prey on a "weaker" man

That The post quoted deserves a 'Like' but I dislike the 'Like' button 

 

[Aloha]

If I am not mistaken the crime rate is highly corelated with social inequality? So why not bash the culture that produced the victim an the criminal? And from here on I would get political so... 

Ps: has anybody noticed that I was able to give two likes to one post? What is up with that? 

Should we then bash the music?  Where would the bashing end? 

At what point does one take responsibility for ones choices?  I was taught no matter the situation we all have choices. 

Maybe we should bash the older man for walking in the streets of Philly where crime is known to happen.  Maybe we should all stop going about our daily activities world wide because little johnny was spanked or his family was disenfranchised and he might snap.

I think 50ft trad to an extent touched on matters related to humans.   

It sure is interesting tho how guns are viewed both here and abroad.   

[lister]

Ps: has anybody noticed that I was able to give two likes to one post? What is up with that? 

Can you do it again?

I can't.  I think it was a bug caused by some sort of a lag in the system due to my use of a browser on an android phone?

[lister]

I was thinking more in the terms of rich vs the poor (neither parti in the incident was rich right?) And I dont think the music had anything to do with it.

[Aloha]

I was thinking more in the terms of rich vs the poor (neither parti in the incident was rich right?) And I dont think the music had anything to do with it.

You sure? I hear that rock and roll is the devils music 

 



 

 

 

[Lichtbote]

Sorry if I made you appear to say something you didn't, I must have missed that

No firiki, don´t worry. 

My answer wasn´t for you, it was for the Capt. and his interpretation that i would suggest ........ what i didn´t.

[zoidberg]

Ps: has anybody noticed that I was able to give two likes to one post? What is up with that? 

Can you do it again?

I can't.  I think it was a bug caused by some sort of a lag in the system due to my use of a browser on an android phone?

Thanks, I clicked as to what was happening, not really a bug as such. 

[captain spaulding]

Sorry if I made you appear to say something you didn't, I must have missed that

No firiki, don´t worry. 

My answer wasn´t for you, it was for the Capt. and his interpretation that i would suggest ........ what i didn´t.

I'n my opinion it is exactly what you were suggesting. Just as everyone I have my opinion and you have yours on the original story and crime in general and being born/raised in different countries gives us different outlooks on things. The beauty of being a self aware human being is we do not have to agree on this. We never will and that's fine. I respect your thoughts on the matter and honestly I am sick of talking about it so I will just leave it at that. Now back to looking at pictures of knives and MT's. 

[powernoodle]

Here in Europe i prefer it to stay the more civilized way as we have it now.

Killing an armed robber makes society more civil, not less.  Imagine how civil it would be with no criminals.

[AimlessWanderer]

Here in Europe i prefer it to stay the more civilized way as we have it now.

Killing an armed robber makes society more civil, not less.  Imagine how civil it would be with no criminals.

Counter arguement to that statement - is it more civil to have individual members of society making that judgement call, or a defined legal system calling for a democratic consensus prior to sentencing

[Yadda]

 Now back to looking at pictures of knives and MT's. 

+1

[Higgins617]

Here in Europe i prefer it to stay the more civilized way as we have it now.

Killing an armed robber makes society more civil, not less.  Imagine how civil it would be with no criminals.

Counter arguement to that statement - is it more civil to have individual members of society making that judgement call, or a defined legal system calling for a democratic consensus prior to sentencing

That is always better, but it can't always get to that point. There is never going to be a perfect system where everyone who does wrong will be punished as such.

At the end of the day, if the man didn't try to threaten someone's life to take their money, he would still be with us.

[powernoodle]

is it more civil to have individual members of society making that judgement call, or a defined legal system calling for a democratic consensus prior to sentencing

We have the time and opportunity to engage in a thoughtful analysis of society ideals like this on MTO.  But when some lowlife punk and recidivist criminal is pointing a pellet gun at your face - one which is capable of inflicting serious bodily injury or death, and which by any thoughtful definition is a "real" firearm - there is no time for a thoughtful analysis of what is best for society.  All you want to do is not die.

There is a great chasm here between those who want to protect vile, evil criminals, and those who want to protect innocent, law abiding citizens.  I don't think this thread will resolve it.

[AimlessWanderer]

I accept your points gentlemen  but I do not see life as that black and white. I also consider that there may be instances where a situation can be misinterpretted, or where the justification is not there other than the gun wielder is having a very bad day. With all due respect, the frequently written aggression towards potential aggressors is to me further justification of my civility/animalism comments earlier.

I do not wish to try and change anyone's mind on this topic. It's banal futility to do so. I merely wish to offer that there is sound reason on the other side of the fence too.

I also hope that people do not seriously consider that I wish to offer protection to evildooers. To take such a stance seems rather desperate in a rational discussion.

[SAK Guy]

I believe that if the old gentleman had pulled out a colored Farmer and dismembered the culprit, there would be no disagreement here except to whether the villain should have been battoned or sawn.   

[AimlessWanderer]

 

[PTRSAK]

I can't believe the bleeding heart BS being spouted by some people here.

The dead scumbag is the VICTIM?    GIVE ME A BREAK!

The perp pulled a gun on a senior citizen going peacefully about his business. The little pile of rat feces got everything he deserved and the world is just a little bit a better place today because of it.

[yourbadneighbor]

Legally armed trained citizens scare criminals and hoodlums,  they move on to easier pickings.   The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with gun. 
 The bad guy made a decision, his actions caused a reaction, it is never the victims responsibility to lay down and die. 
I surely would not. 
My Humble Opinion

[Aloha]

I believe that if the old gentleman had pulled out a colored Farmer and dismembered the culprit, there would be no disagreement here except to whether the villain should have been battoned or sawn.   

 

[HarleyXJGuy]

As far as he knew the robber was threatening to kill him, which may have happened even if he paid,  so he was probably fighting for his life. I assume at the time he was not worried just for the money.

And thats the part i don´t believe in.

There is no much reason not to run with the robbed money and to risk a much more hard punishment due to killing the victim - in a situation the victim gives up and hands over the money.
But even if he was afraid of beeing killed after giving up the money ... what sane mind would really draw a gun with another gun against his head.
Unless he recognized that it´s not a real run. But then he knew that there was no present danger for his life.

Defense it would be (for me) if he shots a fast drawn shot to the best/biggest target - the torso. A direct hit in the head is no defense, for me it´s murder.

I disagree with this on so many levels. You have a right to believe whatever you want and if you were here I would die to defend your right to say how you feel.

Not even sure where to start here so I suppose I will just go in order. This is all based on the time I was a Police Officer before I came in the Army.

No reason to hurt someone when you could just leave with the money. Of course why would I risk life in prison or execution when I already have the money? You would have to ask about one in four armed robbers who harm the people who they have already robbed. Someone pulls a gun on you and you are expected to wait and see why he is doing it? Never had a gun used on you before I am guessing.

The only thing I would be thinking is I sure hope I can shoot first and hit well. Sure want to go home to my family today.

If he knew it was a pellet gun then yes I agree it is Murder. Would be hard to prove unless he admitted it though.

Someone is trying to kill you. This is the only justifiable reason to shoot is self defense and fear for grevious bodily harm or death.

Are you saying it is murder because you shot him in the head? Maybe he should have just shot to wound the attacker? Then hope the wounded attacker decides not to murder him?

Again we disagree on this topic as we have before. Just enjoying the debate about this topic and do not expect to change your mind. Honestly surprised at some of the thinking on this subject by some people. I believe they just do not have a lot of experience with this. A good thing I suppose.