Interesting warranty discussion on FB

[Grant Lamontagne]

Someone posted in the MTO Facebook group that they lost their OHT.  Fortunately they found it again, and everyone heaved a collective sigh of relief, because let's face it, many of us have been there before.

This reminded me of something I have had in the back of my mind for a while now- the hat maker Tilley has a great warranty service.  If you wear the Tilley out they will send you a brand new one, no charge, or of course you can trade the old one in at any registered Tilley dealer, just like you can with most popular multitool brands.

However Tilley goes one step further- if you should ever lose your Tilley, they will "split the cost of a new one" with you- so basically any new hat at 50% off the regular price. 

With Tilley this seems like a bit of overkill, because there really isn't another hat in the same league as Tilley, and so there really aren't any alternatives.

Leatherman, SOG, Victorinox, Gerber and CRKT (among others) actively compete for your multitool dollars, and hope desperately that you won't go to another brand when/if you lose your tool.  So, why don't they offer a "lost tool incentive" program?  Maybe the tool you had has to have been registered or something, to cut down on any abuse that may happen?

What do you all think?

Def

[AimlessWanderer]

People massively abuse the warranties already from what I've seen. Offering this type of incentive would most certainly also be subject to abuse. It would also have to be covered (I am assuming) by an increase in price across the board if that abuse was to start happening.

The best way for the manufacturers to ensure their customers come back is good quality, reliable products. I would certainly go back to CRKT for knives (but not multitools), Victorinox, and Gerber (for multitools, haven't tried their knives other than EABs).

I would be unlikely to buy a replacement Powerlock or Switchplier, or any other SOG, and also highly unlikely to buy a new Leatherman, even with a 50% discount. Their current offerings don't inspire confidence, so I would shop elsewhere. I also wouldn't want to register a product with manufacturers, as I wouldn't be comfortable with them profiteering from my data by selling it on as so many other companies do these days.

Long story short - some companies have earned my future business, others have disuaded me from returning. More ropey marketting schemes won't change that 

[powernoodle]

It may be that Tilley still makes money, or breaks even with a replacement hat at 50% off.  But can an MT maker do that?  I really don't know.  I tend not to like these kinds of programs, because to me it means that the maker is charging too much in the first place.  I would rather them lower the price, and I will accept the risk of loss.  That's just me.

 

[AimlessWanderer]

It may be that Tilley still makes money, or breaks even with a replacement hat at 50% off.  But can an MT maker do that?  I really don't know.  I tend not to like these kinds of programs, because to me it means that the maker is charging too much in the first place.  I would rather them lower the price, and I will accept the risk of loss.  That's just me.

 

50% off RRP (recommended retail price) may be achieveable as they may sell to the larger retailers at less than that (and why they can still make a profit when they have good offers on), but then there's packing and shipping on top. I do cringe when I see stuff being retailed at less than half price though.

It's still open to abuse though, and wouldn't be long before people are buying one, "losing it" and selling the replacement at a profit to subsidise the first one that they actually still have.

It also wouldn't influence me if the product didn't win me over. If it did win me over, then I'd probably be happy to replace at a reasonable retail price. Therefore it would not benefit the manufacturer to do this

[Grant Lamontagne]

People massively abuse the warranties already from what I've seen. Offering this type of incentive would most certainly also be subject to abuse. It would also have to be covered (I am assuming) by an increase in price across the board if that abuse was to start happening.

The best way for the manufacturers to ensure their customers come back is good quality, reliable products. I would certainly go back to CRKT for knives (but not multitools), Victorinox, and Gerber (for multitools, haven't tried their knives other than EABs).

I would be unlikely to buy a replacement Powerlock or Switchplier, or any other SOG, and also highly unlikely to buy a new Leatherman, even with a 50% discount. Their current offerings don't inspire confidence, so I would shop elsewhere. I also wouldn't want to register a product with manufacturers, as I wouldn't be comfortable with them profiteering from my data by selling it on as so many other companies do these days.

Long story short - some companies have earned my future business, others have disuaded me from returning. More ropey marketting schemes won't change that 

For an MTO member who has lots of experience with numerous brands that's one thing, but what about the average guy that just has one tool?  He might have lost a Leatherman, went to Home Depot for a replacement and saw Gerber, figured it was close enough and bought that.  Or SOG.  Or anything else.

This demographic is much larger than MTO members or other experienced tool buyers.

It may be that Tilley still makes money, or breaks even with a replacement hat at 50% off.  But can an MT maker do that?  I really don't know.  I tend not to like these kinds of programs, because to me it means that the maker is charging too much in the first place.  I would rather them lower the price, and I will accept the risk of loss.  That's just me.

 

I feel the same way, especially when I see car commercials where they offer huge amounts of cash off/back plus another pile of money in accessories.  But if they sell enough tools/cars/whatever it could be worthwhile.

Cutting out the dealer network would save a lot on a program like this- saying you have to buy it directly from the manufacturer would cut some people out who don't want to wait or go to the hassle, not to mention that the site has full retail price (dealers sell for less) which means they are making money at 50% retail since in many cases that's what they sell to retailers for.

There will be abusers, but in the end the company would get more sales (replacement tools) and have another gimmick to use to sell the tools in the first place.  I don't see it as a huge loss to be honest.

Def

[AimlessWanderer]

Fair point Grant, but I would no doubt take the same viewpoint for other products I'm less of an enthusiast about. Pens, shoes, phones, bags, hats, whatever 

[Mercury]

I'm with Powernoodle.  It seems that such a generous discount implies an overinflated initial price.  While I am a very proud Tilley hat owner, I personally would just go buy a new Tilley if I lost or damaged mine.  I think that may be part of their strategy: they are relying on their customers being honest people.  I've not known too many folks that have even heard of Tilley, and the ones that care to buy such an expensive hat are generally pretty good people. 

Another strategy is, like Al said, simply making a quality product.  I paid $80 for my Tilley and it was worth every cent.  I'd do it again in a heart beat.  I can honestly say I would be a tad apprehensive about spending anything over $50 on another Leatherman despite the fact that I carry one every day.  They've shaken my confidence lately.  A massive discount replacement program would shake that confidence even more. 

[Sea Monster]

As someone living on an island, somewhat out of the way, a lot of the charm of these offers is lost in the shipping cost to and from wherever the product comes from, as retailers don't generally want a bar of it, and are only required to uphold any protected consumer warranties based on local laws.

As for "abusing" warranties.

Eh, I'll admit I'm not a slouch when it comes to taking a company to task on their warranty, and in some ways the companies that do have good warranties suffer for all the companies that don't as I (or other consumers) try to make up for "lost" value on dud products that their dealers won't support.

On the other hand, that's why I buy the premium brands at premium prices to start with, because I want that confidence and security and not a gamble.


For the most part I agree (as usual?) with 50ft, I don't like registering products (a personal value I have paid for in the past, usually relating to computers/electrical goods).

Some years ago I posted on this site asking why Leatherman needed to know the names of my dogs in order to register my tools.

[TheDude]

Dogs names? OMG they are taking the psyche babble seriously now...
As to the OP, I remember when I bought my Blackwater Grizzly they offered some thing for US Serviceman. From my recollection, after you registered your product, if you lost it on deployment in the first 2 years they would replace it. They eventually ceased selling that line. Go figure. Maybe it was more of a PR thing with them however, I don't know.
What does annoy me is when the quality drops over time, but he price doesn't, and they expect proof of purchase. And have you noticed how long a receipt lasts from a thermal printer.

[WoodsDuck]

What does annoy me is when the quality drops over time, but he price doesn't

The one that keeps getting me is the MUT pocket clip situation. They swapped the titanium clip for a steel one to save on production costs? Alright, fair enough, but the tool still carries a beyond premium price point 

On the topic of multitool warranties, I've noticed that a lot of non-enthusiast users of things like knives and MTs don't even make legit warranty claims when they can. I guess some folks feel the whole mailing process isn't worth the trouble when they can go down the road and buy a replacement the same day 

[Yadda]

Uncle Henry pocket knives had a similar "if lost" free replacement policy back in the 70's.  They made good pocket knives back then.....

[Sea Monster]

I've noticed that a lot of non-enthusiast users of things like knives and MTs don't even make legit warranty claims when they can

or any other consumer product...

If you buy a backpack and the zipper craps out in (I havn't checked this but let's say) 12 months, you can argue that the expected life of a backpack is 3 years, and claim warranty as it is not fit for purpose, regardless of any warranty terms stated by the manufacturer or retailer.

Somewhere (for Australia, and I imagine other countries have simliar) there is a schedule of "reasonable" life and use of any given product (I think most electrical goods are 24 months, for example) and if something, under normal use, doesn't meet that standard, you can give the manufacturer/supplier the opportunity to justify their existence.

Now, retailers etc will fumble about, ask for receipts, say that's not their store policy yadda yadda. All you need to provide (Australia again here) is resonable evidence of your purchase - bank statement will do. incidentally, so will a facebook post from the day you bought it with a picture of you in the store holding the product and a caption saying "Just bought this great backpack, the zipper sure looks like quality work!"

Manufacturers (and I mean the dodgy ones who havn't done a day of design, customer interaction, or quality control in their lives) are banking on high sales, and minimum returns/fuss to make a profit, and if you use your rights (check your local legislation ) - they will lose money, and the retailer will see that it is not worth the effort of stocking that brand and cut them off.




An interesting side note (Keeping in mind I speak from AUSTRALIAN LAW, before you go picking fights)
if a representative (lets say a casual teenage weekend worker ) of a business says a product can or will do something, then that product has to do it, or you are entitled to refund or replacement.

So, if you go to the auto shop, and get them to choose the parts you need for your car - if they're wrong, you have every right to go back and say "You're a muppet, try again" - regardless of if those goods are out of packet etc.

If you're buying a Saw, even if the packet says "Maximum cut, 3/4"), and the dude in the shop says "nah, it'll cut 1", no worries" - then it has to cut 1", no worries, or you get warranty.
,

[TheDude]

I had this issue with Oakley sunglasses recently. They are about the only thing that will stay on my head and subsequently not get lost or stolen. I always get the grey lenses as the iridium seems to wear off the outside pretty quickley and is not covered under warranty. The first time the inside of the lense wore off I couldn't find the receipt and I paid cash, so my wife bought me a new pair for xmas 6 months later. Now same deal again. I nearly gave up and went for a cheaper brand but decided to send them back after turning the house upside down and found the receipt.

[Steinar]

I'm grateful to all of those who actually use their warranty, and thus try to keep businesses honest, because I'm one of those who rarely do. Why? Because it's expensive (shipping costs from Norway are... interesting), takes more of my time than simply fixing stuff/getting something else, and I neither like quarreling with people nor explaining things repeatedly. (And time is a limited resource.) I try to buy quality goods instead. It's cheaper buying something proper and keeping it longer, than replacing smurf more often. So, on the one hand I'm an enabler of manipulative practices with getting people not to actually invoke the warranty, on the other hand I vote with my wallet for those guys where I won't need it anyway. I guess my sentiments aren't unlike those of 50ft-trad and Sea Monster.

I have seen a lot of interesting attempts at abusing warranty systems, and I assume the bigger the circulation of your product, the higher the chance your policy will be abused (sort of by definition).

[Sea Monster]

I had this issue with Oakley sunglasses recently.

My sunnies shop offers a 50% (I think?) discount on subsequent purchases of sunglasses after the first (hmm), as a form of "discount for loss or damage" situation.

You don't even need a receipt....as long as you are willing to have all your details and purchases kept on record on their central computer.
(Actually that's another thing re: my last post on warranties. If you can tell them when you purchased something, and for how much, as they have to keep sales records, they can look it up for you, and that constitutes your evidence )


Given how I churn through sunnies hoever, even 50% off a set of raybans 3 times a year would leave me destitute, so 'el cheapos for me, every time.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Yup. Cheapie sunglasses for me too usually.

Def

[Aloha]

I'm grateful to all of those who actually use their warranty, and thus try to keep businesses honest, because I'm one of those who rarely do. Why? Because it's expensive (shipping costs from Norway are... interesting), takes more of my time than simply fixing stuff/getting something else, and I neither like quarreling with people nor explaining things repeatedly. (And time is a limited resource.) I try to buy quality goods instead. It's cheaper buying something proper and keeping it longer, than replacing smurf more often. So, on the one hand I'm an enabler of manipulative practices with getting people not to actually invoke the warranty, on the other hand I vote with my wallet for those guys where I won't need it anyway. I guess my sentiments aren't unlike those of 50ft-trad and Sea Monster.

I have seen a lot of interesting attempts at abusing warranty systems, and I assume the bigger the circulation of your product, the higher the chance your policy will be abused (sort of by definition).

Good post.  I feel much the same about my time when it comes to warranty claims or returns.  I haven't the patience many times so I tend to try to buy the products that have better reputations of quality.  I had my last tv for nearly 10 years before I upgraded and gave it away.  I had a terrible experience with my Chevy Truck which makes me never want to buy one again.  Bought a sony vaio laptop that I regretted soon after. 

Regarding LM tools, I have made a couple warranty claims and all were terrific.  Easy, simple, and to my utmost satisfaction.  My friend made a claim on her Spirit and to her total satisfaction. 

Kershaw took a very long time when I called about torsion bars for my Leek.  I had to call back several times before I finally got them.  I was happy but the hassle is what I could do without.   

I must add that I'm pretty mellow when it comes to stuff not being perfect.  I am never expecting things to last indefinitely.  I do expect them perform more than a few months of normal use. 

 

[parnass]

Schrade used to replace their Uncle Henry knives lost within the first year for free.  That was before the company closed and the name was bought by Taylor Brands which moved production from New York to China.

I have a bunch of the USA-made Uncle Henry knives.

[BASguy]

All that idea says to me is the company is overpricing enough to cover all the deadbeats who are going to file bogus loss claims....yikes. 


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun

[Sea Monster]

All that idea says to me is the company is overpricing enough to cover all the deadbeats who are going to file bogus loss claims....yikes

or that their higher sales due to the unique selling point outweigh the occasional spurious claim.

[aerojet]

Warranties are another thing - how long do you expect somebody to stand behind their product? At what point do you just figure it doesn't owe you another thing, and go out and just buy a new what ever?

OEM defects are another subject entirely. Anything can and sometimes will go wrong with almost any product, including Swiss.

In all the years I have owned a SAK, mainly Vic, I have had some problems, but mainly due to my horsing the thing. Just admit you in some way destroyed the thing by pushing it beyond it's design limits, so at that point, toss and replace.

Expecting somebody to pick up your fumble should not be in the mix.

Just my 2 cents worth ...

The Aerojet

[Grant Lamontagne]

I agree with you 100% on that. 

But this is more of a marketing discussion than it is an actual tool use discussion.  I would imagine that most folks never bother to even use the warranty on tools, and so I would imagine even the abusers don't cost the companies a lot of money.

Def

[Sea Monster]

Warranties are another thing - how long do you expect somebody to stand behind their product At what point do you just figure it doesn't owe you another thing, and go out and just buy a new what ever

Oh absolutely - you have to determine a fair life, which can be anywhere from a week for a disposable razor, 2 years for most of your TVs etc,  10 years for a car (Although most manufacturers will only back 3-5 years),
but if it says on the Messermeister knife packet "sharp for fifty years", then they drew the line in the (distant) sand, not me.

Of course, they offer a free sharpening service, so they absolutely back it up, and I recommend Messermeister to anyone who'll listen to me, and shout it at people running away.

a part of why I put so much effort into warranty claims is either
A. To try to make the point that it's not worth making cheap crap to start with
B. To try to make the point that you shouldn't claim something that's an outright lie (Bear Grylls, see me in my office please)


I don't buy cheap crap when I can avoid it, so most of the Store-branded products are safe from me

I'm not going to hold Sunbeam over a barrel if my Sandwich press doesn't cope with being used as a wheelstop when I'm rotating my tyres,
but if the thermostat fails and it melts and ruins my kitchen bench, you can bloody bet they'll hear from me, and I won't be using long words.

[Mercury]

I think Leatherman's warranty has been a fantastic bit of marketing for them.  With the way they run it, it obviously doesn't cost them enough to warrant being an issue and it seriously promotes brand loyalty.  Even with their QC issues, I've continued to carry a Leatherman through the years because I know I can warranty it when I (inevitably) break it.  I have had my Rebar on my belt for two and a half years, and it shows no signs of breaking.  If it does, I know I have to make it 7 days without it and I will have a new one. 

I've utilized several other warranties as well, however my confidence has been somewhat diminished by repeat issues in the past.  If I warranty an item for an issue, I don't expect to have to warranty it for the same issue again. 

Case in point: I had a pair of $180 Danner boots that I used for Loss Prevention detail a few years back.  They were designed for Security/LEO use around Metal detectors, and had plastic lace eyelets so they wouldn't set off the detectors.  These eyelets broke about 4-6 months into daily use, which is unacceptable to me.  The warranty was only 6 months long.  Unfortunately the tread on the soles also wore about halfway through in that time due to a poor design on the heel thickness, so Danner got upset with me the 3rd time I warrantied my boots for the same stupid Eyelet issue.  I was pretty upset that I couldn't get a pair of $180 boots to last at least a year.  Danner told me after the 3rd pair that they were redesigning the boot and wouldn't be sending me another warranty pair, I'd have to pay full price for a new pair.  I have since decided that Danner boots aren't worth my trouble.  Considering that I have a pair of Redwing boots that were the same price, and have lasted 2 full years without any issues other than needing new laces, I feel I was justified.  These redwings are getting really long in the tooth but are still kicking, I bet there is another 6 months or so left in them. 

So, in my mind a warranty only works well if you have a good design in the first place.  Redwing's warranty is more realistic, and inspires more confidence than Danner's.  They tell you straight up that if, within a year, the boot has issues due to a defect, they will fix it at 50% cost.  But, after owning 3 pairs of these redwing boots in succession and seeing them FAR outlast the (reasonable) warranty period, I'm pretty well sold on the Brand.  Redwing also won't sell online, they insist on a face to face transaction so they can fit you, which is part of their comfort guarantee.  I speak from experience, this is worth it. 

Wow, after reading that back to myself I sound like I'm plugging Redwing.  I don't even work in an occupation that requires a redwing workboot anymore, but I still wear them daily. 

[parnass]

...   Redwing also won't sell online, they insist on a face to face transaction so they can fit you, which is part of their comfort guarantee.  I speak from experience, this is worth it.  ...

FWIW, you can purchase Redwing boots over the internet at sites like Amazon.com .

[Mercury]

...   Redwing also won't sell online, they insist on a face to face transaction so they can fit you, which is part of their comfort guarantee.  I speak from experience, this is worth it.  ...

FWIW, you can purchase Redwing boots over the internet at sites like Amazon.com .

I was not aware of that, thanks!   

[anditsgone]

I've had great experiences with Victorinox, leatherman, maglite and Smith motorcross goggles.

Leatherman was broken, my fault but they replaced it.

Victorinox, worn out, they replaced all the worn tools for free.

Maglite, Switch malfunctioned and i smashed the light out of frustration. Led broke and they repaired the led and replaced the switch for me.

Smith Motorcross goggles. Mx goggles have a roll off system that uses a smal transparant film that you roll of when it gets dirty. They have a lifetime warranty on their rolloff systems. It broke down every 2 months and they've send me a replacement every time.