Pioneer X problems

[tattoosteve99]

As most of you know me as a modder and sak fan I feel its my duty to inform you all of a potential problem/safety concern. i have already modded a few of the X variants and while this new model is a long awaited thing I see problems. The problem I have seen is that every one I have taken apart has bent center pins. What exactly this means is that snap will be lost over time due to excessive wear of this pin. Although I doubt any will break as of yet, this is a concern to me. I don't know how many and if anyone else has noticed this but please chime in if you have. I am not a collector, far from it as you know, but this needs to be addressed here in the community as well as Victorinox headquarters. I have already sent messages to various people including Mr. Elsner to try to make them aware of this if they do not already know. I would hope this would not change your minds on the quality of Vic, it doesn't mine, and as with all new things some "bugs" need to be worked out. I do really care how Vic handles this as I can see some of the things that need to be fixed for this. Please feel free to post your concerns or questions here and if you feel so inclined message Victorinox and lets see if we can get this fixed

[twiliter]

Can you post some pics Steve? I have seen a few bent pins, but I think they were due to a lot of use or excessive torque, mostly end pins on 6+ layer 91's. Didn't seem to affect the operation, but they weren't badly bent either, only slightly.

[tattoosteve99]

I will post pics soon. These are off of brand new out of the box models.

[GigaHz]

2.5mm pin bending? That pin isn't even that long. Isn't it the same thickness as a farmer? Is must be during assembly. I see it is .6mm thicker.

[Obi1shinobee]

BEST DAMN POCKET CLIP EVER ............

[tattoosteve99]

2.5mm pin bending? That pin isn't even that long. Isn't it the same thickness as a farmer? Is must be during assembly. I see it is .6mm thicker.

Yes that one. It's longer than a farmer by a little. I believe it's because the spring has so much tension.

[twiliter]

2.5mm pin bending? That pin isn't even that long. Isn't it the same thickness as a farmer? Is must be during assembly. I see it is .6mm thicker.

Yes that one. It's longer than a farmer by a little. I believe it's because the spring has so much tension.

The springs do seem extra tight on these, I think that must be it, and affecting assembly. Either that or they might be starting with the pins a little too long? That spinner peening clincher thing probably would squish the pins too much if they were too long...

[GigaHz]

I have taken apart a couple of XLTs and the pin material is different than all the other 91mm knives. It is more white in color. I assumed the 93 pin material would be the same tougher metal.

[Syph007]

I dont think its from the backsprings pressure. It would take significant force to bend a pin that short.  BUT.. since its a new assembly for them, could the pins they are using be a hair too long and the peening of them forces it down and bends it? 

Just how bent are we talking?  I only took apart the one I bought and I didnt specifically notice or look for anything different at the time.

Snap a pic next time you take one apart.   

[tattoosteve99]

I dont think its from the backsprings pressure. It would take significant force to bend a pin that short.  BUT.. since its a new assembly for them, could the pins they are using be a hair too long and the peening of them forces it down and bends it? 

Just how bent are we talking?  I only took apart the one I bought and I didnt specifically notice or look for anything different at the time.

Snap a pic next time you take one apart.   

Had it been a spring like yours it wouldn't have bent , but it's bent enough to wear it looses some snap. I've also noticed that the springs are significantly stronger, and thicker. The pins are bent enough that when held next to a straight edge you can see the gap. Me and you both know how this effects a knife. I've had reports also already that some new ones people had have 0 snap when they get them. I have a few more to take apart soon and I'll get some pics when I take it apart.

[Syph007]

Ah..... interesting.

See I wouldnt see that issue on customs since the pivots are hardened steel and have zero flex in them.  But nickel silver is much softer then steel.

For sure take some pics when you can.  As I moslty do 91mm Ti work now I haven't worked on the modern alox much at all.

[tattoosteve99]

Ah..... interesting.

See I wouldnt see that issue on customs since the pivots are hardened steel and have zero flex in them.  But nickel silver is much softer then steel.

For sure take some pics when you can.  As I moslty do 91mm Ti work now I haven't worked on the modern alox much at all.

If I knew how they assembled these it would help. If the do it the same way 91mm are then that's probably the problem. The pivot mod is definitely something that spent flex ever. I've noticed though when I have added scissors myself, using my method, that it isn't a problem. The "ramp" they use is also too small IMO to hold these up high enough to access. I think they will see these threads and hopefully fix the problems

[Syph007]

Dammit now I have to order more to play with. 

I was low on alox anyhow but was just going to get some of those dark gray pioneers.  They must not sell well as I found 10 packs of new ones for 220.  That's cheaper than I can buy stock silver pioneers.  This is at cuttlery shoppe fiy.

[miklospinter]

Steve,
very interesting, thanks for bringing this up and chasing Victorinox to look into it!
I'm surprised to hear that some of them have 0 snap, I have a very different experience...

Bob,
I have a "Pioneer X" from you (the "Stormtrooper") and it has pretty good snap on the scissors.
I was expecting something like that from the Pioneer X. I just got mine 2 days ago, and man, it has such a strong snap that it blows my mind. I like the strong snap on the Pioneer range but this one is maybe too strong for me. The spring is so strong that I'm afraid of cutting myself while opening the scissors (especially with that stupid nail nick on the wrong side).

Earlier I thought it would make a good YouTube video to show the Pioneer X next to my SAKModder Stormtrooper mod with scissors... but now I think it's even more interesting
I'm pretty busy nowadays so I hope I'll have some time soon to record that video.
(My YouTube channel is miklospinter but if anybody is interested, I can post the link to the video here when it's published.
But it won't be as interesting as this topic here...)

[BerkshireHunter]

I want to see some pictures. I just checked my few Pioneer X's vs. some farmers and didn't notice much in the way of differing spring strengths. The Pioneer X may have had a slightly stronger spring but not by much.

How could the slight difference in width affect the rivet when the swisschamps and craftsman work just fine?

I'm optimistic, but hopefully this doesn't affect the "sturdy boy's" reputation.

[tattoosteve99]

Well like I said if I knew how they put these together it will help. I have run into this problem myself when adding scissors to mods. If they put these together the same way as celidor that's the problem. If anyone has seen the video on how they do it, there's a special machine that holds the pins in place while the springs are loaded. This works for "most" models and mods. However since the scissors are strong, and so are the mods, I load all the tools and scales then load the tools on the springs. Hard to explain. If Vic does the same way as celidor, as soon as the machine lifts up to add the next layer, the scissor spring has so much force, it's bends the middle pin as its not supported by the machine. This is only my theory, and if it's the same procedure. Even if the pin is bent only a fraction, that's when it starts to wear and the trouble starts.

[miklospinter]

Steve,
I'm not sure if it tells you anything, but in this video you can see some photos where Vic produces a limited black Pioneer X for the German facebook group "Victorinox Freunde":
https://youtu.be/verIs7sp57w?t=3m12s

[tattoosteve99]

Update. Out of the 5 I have taken apart, I found one that wasn't bent. I have to take apart soon and will update the thread with my findings including measurements.

[miklospinter]

How was the spring action / snap on those 5 before you took them apart? Was the good one any different than the bent ones?

[Syph007]

Update. Out of the 5 I have taken apart, I found one that wasn't bent. I have to take apart soon and will update the thread with my findings including measurements.

Ok snap some pics for us.   

[GigaHz]

I am tempted to open mine up to check.

[Grass]

 

[tattoosteve99]

I have heard from Mr Elsner and I am trying to help resolve this problem. This makes me happy that he has contacted me .

[miklospinter]

I have heard from Mr Elsner and I am trying to help resolve this problem. This makes me happy that he has contacted me .

Another "like" here
Please help Vic and also tell them that part of the solution is to put the nail nick back to the "right" side!

[sLaughterMed]

I have heard from Mr Elsner and I am trying to help resolve this problem. This makes me happy that he has contacted me .

He should offer you a job....

You hear that mr. Elsner?

[tattoosteve99]

I have heard from Mr Elsner and I am trying to help resolve this problem. This makes me happy that he has contacted me .

He should offer you a job....

You hear that mr. Elsner?

I wish! Really though I don't want anything out of this but a solution. Is that hardcore enough?

[BerkshireHunter]

I have heard from Mr Elsner and I am trying to help resolve this problem. This makes me happy that he has contacted me .

Great news. Did those images of the black pioneer X's being assembled show any potential issues?

Glad our modderss here found this type of issue. Keep us updated and post any pics of the pins if you have any.

Thanks Steve 

[Mercury]

Fascinating find Steve.  I think it's entirely possible that the bend happens while loading the spring before peening.  I ran into that problem simply trying to rebuild 91mm cellidor models in my shop.  I had to build a jig to keep the pins aligned so I could load the springs up.  Still turned out loose.  One of these days I'll actually set up a machine shop in my garage and I'll be able to try this all again. 

Curious to see where this goes though, good find!

[BerkshireHunter]

After saying mine was just fine, I decided to add some drops of oil to the scissors. Well, something happened and the action started getting really heavy towards the end of the opening movement. It was somewhat sticky and stiff, almost gritty. Don't know if the spring only needed a tad bit of material to gum it up but it felt like a terrible action. All the other tools worked fine.

So I gave it a spa treatment, wd40'd it up, then gave it tumble bath in hot soapy water, and re-oiled. The scissors are back to working pretty good, the action is just a tad stiff towards the end, but much improved.

Leads me to believe Victorinox hasn't mastered the Pioneer X yet. Coincidentally, my Damascus models all are buttery smooth, hopefully they put more time and effort into those... 

I think I'll wait a while before I get more Pioneer X's but hopefully we get some positive feedback from Victorinox on this.

[SAK Guy]

I oiled mine when I got it, everything works perfect...nice sturdy ALOX pull, smooth action/snap, no play in any direction...grinds perfect. I have no complaints.