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Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox 2738

Hero Member Posts: 765
Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« on: October 02, 2016, 04:29:20 PM »
Hello to all the participants of  this great forum!
This is my first post here. For several years I was only the MTO reader and used  "read only mod" (Leaf, ) so I decided to show in the first post something interesting and not often found. It proved quite difficult to find something unique. I decided that even the 10th anniversary Leatherman PST is not suitable because loki-mobile already showed here his two gold PSTs. Finally I found something interesting!

Model 246 kaU with blue cellidor scales from the end of 1940s or early 1950s.

Before I was sure that Victorinox started using blue cellidor scales much later, since the beginning of 1960s. Look at this great photo by JAZZBASS:

However, a few years ago, on this very forum there was  almost same Victorinox blue cellidor knife mod. 245 shown which belonged to esteemed JAZZBASS (http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,38555.0.html).
This blue Victorinox has the same tools as red one.

The presence  of another blue cellidor victorinox knife from late 40s / early 50s confirms that factory blue cellidor existed and it is not MOD.
Blue color of the old scales differs slightly from the other, it is lighter.




Отправлено с моего iPad используя Tapatalk
« Last Edit: October 02, 2016, 04:31:27 PM by JNOXID »
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 6,298 aka "G-Fiddle" and "Glen-Fizzle"
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2016, 04:32:39 PM »
Hello to all the participants of  this great forum!
This is my first post here. For several years I was only the MTO reader and used  "read only mod" (Leaf, ) so I decided to show in the first post something interesting and not often found. It proved quite difficult to find something unique. I decided that even the 10th anniversary Leatherman PST is not suitable because loki-mobile already showed here his two gold PSTs. Finally I found something interesting!
(Image removed from quote.)(Image removed from quote.)
Model 246 kaU with blue cellidor scales from the end of 1940s or early 1950s.
(Image removed from quote.)
Before I was sure that Victorinox started using blue cellidor scales much later, since the beginning of 1960s. Look at this great photo by JAZZBASS:
(Image removed from quote.)
However, a few years ago, on this very forum there was  almost same Victorinox blue cellidor knife mod. 245 shown which belonged to esteemed JAZZBASS (http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,38555.0.html).
This blue Victorinox has the same tools as red one.
(Image removed from quote.)
The presence  of another blue cellidor victorinox knife from late 40s / early 50s confirms that factory blue cellidor existed and it is not MOD.
Blue color of the old scales differs slightly from the other, it is lighter.
(Image removed from quote.)



Отправлено с моего iPad используя Tapatalk

Welcome, and great first post  :cheers:

Never seen this one in blue!

[--- arms length ---] (-.-) 

                                ^-- where the cat sits
Global Moderator Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 23,238
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2016, 04:34:20 PM »
Excellent first post  :tu:.  Welcome.

Esse Quam Videri
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 5,513 motionless wheel, nothing is real
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2016, 04:34:32 PM »
Outstanding first post JN, welcome to MTO!  :cheers:

what Aloha said +1   :D

what GF said too, man you guys are fast...  :D
« Last Edit: October 02, 2016, 04:36:26 PM by twiliter »
No Life Club Posts: 1,367
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2016, 10:10:20 PM »
However, a few years ago, on this very forum there was  almost same Victorinox blue cellidor knife mod. 245 shown which belonged to esteemed JAZZBASS (http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,38555.0.html).
[/img]

Nice knife and great pictures. The 245kaU referenced here is actually a 246kaU, just like yours. The seller in the original auction didn't open the saw so I was surprised when I got the knife that it was a 246 and not a 245. I figured it was an original and not a mod, but it's nice to see another early 50s knife of the same type as a confirmation. I only wish my blue 246kaU was in as good condition as yours is.

Old blue cellidor is interesting, because there is a lot of evidence that Victorinox had problems getting it right. I have 3-4 blue Fischermesser knives in various stages of decay. Some of the scales the inlay is corroded. Others the scales are crumbling apart. And on others the blades of the knife are actually rusting (yes, the stainless steel is rusting) due to whatever chemical is out gassing and causing the scales to decompose. This is not ALL of the old blue cellidor - I have many blue knives from the 50s and 60s that are fine. But I have seen enough in this condition to think that its a manufacturing defect and not something a previous owner did to the knife.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2016, 10:22:08 PM by jazzbass »
No Life Club Posts: 1,044
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2016, 10:21:45 PM »
 :drool: :drool: :drool:

I need one!

-JJL
instagram: jamesjlarue (warning, lots of cat pics along with the SAKs)
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 6,826
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2016, 01:26:16 AM »
Beautiful!

Welcome  aboard!   :cheers:

« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 01:29:59 AM by ColoSwiss »
Global Moderator He Who Has The Most Nuts, Wins! Posts: 50,351
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2016, 05:49:18 AM »
welcome  :cheers:
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 20,789 What's the matter, kid? Don't ya like clowns?
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2016, 05:53:19 AM »
Excellent fellas. I would walk a mile in broken glass to own a blue 235fmaU.  :drool:

I'm the milk man!
Hero Member Posts: 765
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2016, 07:43:29 AM »
Thanks guys, I am very glad that you like this knife! :salute:
By the way, here is what JB talking about: plastic scale at the unused knife  breaks down and releases corrosive substances. Fortunately, this is not my knife.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 07:44:45 AM by JNOXID »
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 16,301
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2016, 09:15:04 AM »
 :like: Welcome aboard and beautiful knife!!

Barry
Full Member Posts: 126
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2016, 09:09:02 PM »
WOOOOOOOW, this is such a cool knife!!  I'm interested to know where/how you found it, if you want to share... Anyway, welcome!
And... I really had to look twice... Jazzbass's back?!?! Awesome news here today  :ahhh
No Life Club Posts: 4,577
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2016, 10:21:02 PM »
Sounds like a problem I here time and time again with celluloid, called outgassing. So, were these blue scales related to celluloid chemically?
Global Moderator No Life Club Posts: 3,461
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2016, 02:14:51 PM »
WOOOOOOOW, this is such a cool knife!!  I'm interested to know where/how you found it, if you want to share... Anyway, welcome!
And... I really had to look twice... Jazzbass's back ?!?! ................... Awesome news here today  :ahhh

Yay  :cheers:  Welcome - and Welcome back, indeed - Please both stay around and share more amazing pics and knowledge with us  :D
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 23,837 "Spending all of my money and time Oh, ho ho...'"
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2016, 03:00:10 PM »
Excellent thread!!!!!  :cheers:

- Robert




Vox Clamantis in Deserto
Quo Fata Ferunt
"It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues." - Ten Bears
I aim to misbehave.
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 16,301
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2016, 02:47:40 PM »
+1!!!

Barry
Sr. Member Posts: 479 Bought a Trekker for work and the collection began
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2020, 01:44:23 AM »
Asking for some help...
I bought this knife recently and am wondering the model number should anyone know it.  Appears to be a first generation Fisherman or Fischermesser. 

They say the pen is mightier than the sword.   However... there is a dead guy here with a Bic in his hand and a Samurai walking away.
Global Moderator No Life Club Posts: 3,461
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2020, 02:53:51 AM »
Yes old Sportfischer / Fischermesser - 235fau

See here:
https://sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Fisherman

2 = CS
35 = Scissors and standard two layers
f = fish scaler
a = tp+tw
u = bail

... with thanks to jazzbass for the numbering explanation :)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 03:24:46 AM by Huntsman »
Hero Member Posts: 765
Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2020, 05:43:06 AM »
Nice knife, CraftsmanSAK! Yes, it is one of the first knives with fishscaler and it is definitely made before "official date" this tool introducing (1952). We discussed this knife here:
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,51152.930.html
Here's later version and numeration :
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 05:53:50 AM by jnoxyd »
No Life Club Posts: 2,046
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2020, 07:31:57 AM »
Asking for some help...
I bought this knife recently and am wondering the model number should anyone know it.  Appears to be a first generation Fisherman or Fischermesser.

This is one of the batch that did not have the toothpick...just the tweezers.

So I’m not sure it would have been labeled 235faU but that would be the best guess AFAIK.

Posted mine here:
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,51152.msg2134067.html#msg2134067

There are also others mentioned in either ulli’s or Elsinox’s threads with some videos posted. So I think they all came from a pretty big batch as they all appear to be sans toothpick.

Comparing some of the part details lead me to believe there is or may be overlap with these and US.PAT.PEND knives c. ‘52-‘53 with the new openers.

If this post has been helpful in dating your Swiss Army Knife, please consider making a small contribution to help keep SAKWiki going
Sr. Member Posts: 335
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2020, 12:02:01 PM »
What a fantastic piece of SAK history. Thanks for sharing...although now I want something that I’m never liely to get!!  :drool: Thanks also everyone else for the additional info.
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 19,031 Oxygen and magnesium toghether?! OMg!
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2020, 01:23:48 PM »
Asking for some help...
I bought this knife recently and am wondering the model number should anyone know it.  Appears to be a first generation Fisherman or Fischermesser.

Great catch, CraftsmanSAK!

 :tu: :tu:

Awlso, great tagline!

 :D :D :D :D

________________________________
It is just a matter of time before they add the word “Syndrome” after my last name.

I don't have OCD, I have OCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ.

Eff the ineffable, scrut the inscrutable.

IYCRTYSWTMTFOT

Sr. Member Posts: 479 Bought a Trekker for work and the collection began
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2020, 01:24:49 AM »
Thank you very much, Hunstman, kamikari, and jnoxyd!!!   :cheers:
And thank you Helvetica Bold and pfrsantos!   
Seems if they are missing the toothpick they also have the Wenger style can opener and screwdriver on that batch as well?  Now I need to restore this one without doing any harm. 

« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 01:30:46 AM by CraftsmanSAK »

They say the pen is mightier than the sword.   However... there is a dead guy here with a Bic in his hand and a Samurai walking away.
No Life Club Posts: 2,046
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2020, 01:40:12 AM »
Thank you very much, Hunstman, kamikari, and jnoxyd!!!   :cheers:
And thank you Helvetica Bold and pfrsantos!   
Seems if they are missing the toothpick they also have the Wenger style can opener and screwdriver on that batch as well?  Now I need to restore this one without doing any harm.

Yes, it seems to go together for only this model AFAIK. Or I don’t know of *any* other knives of the era to be tweezer only like these. One theory of mine is a transitional use of the last parts in stock.

It’s a great find and good luck with a careful clean and restoration!

I don’t think of the openers as ‘Wenger style’ but as a Vic oriented collector, they are the ‘crab claw’ (can) openers.

If this post has been helpful in dating your Swiss Army Knife, please consider making a small contribution to help keep SAKWiki going
Global Moderator No Life Club Posts: 3,461
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2020, 02:41:59 AM »
Yes a gentle clean and restore and it will be amazing   :drool:  ..... Quite a find - Congratulations  :tu:

Re can-opener - I agree KK - Also Vic invented that design - Right? Before they moved to their later (current) design
And when the patent ran out on the crab-claw design Wenger took it on!

Although in recent times (ie the last 45 years !  :o  )  of course everyone thinks of it as the Wenger style!
Sr. Member Posts: 479 Bought a Trekker for work and the collection began
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2020, 03:40:31 AM »
That makes more sense that it was Vic's design.  I read that "Wenger style" from some other post or forum after I first got it but that didn't make much sense to me during that time frame that it would have occurred like that.  Wenger adopting the design makes more sense.

(sorry I spelled your nick wrong in my last post, kamakiri)

They say the pen is mightier than the sword.   However... there is a dead guy here with a Bic in his hand and a Samurai walking away.
No Life Club Posts: 2,046
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2020, 04:23:17 AM »
(sorry I spelled your nick wrong in my last post, kamakiri)

No worries!  Please post it up in the Vintage thread when you’re done! ...Or document the rest first and start a thread on it?  Been meaning to do something like that myself.

....

I think that’s all correct Huntsman, but I don’t study the Wenger aspect of it at all, so I wouldn’t claim to know.


If this post has been helpful in dating your Swiss Army Knife, please consider making a small contribution to help keep SAKWiki going
Full Member Posts: 219
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2020, 01:48:28 PM »
Re can-opener - I agree KK - Also Vic invented that design - Right? Before they moved to their later (current) design
And when the patent ran out on the crab-claw design Wenger took it on!
The crab claw can opener was patented by Michael A. Mirando of Imperial Knife Company (a US company), as can be seen in the attached image. It seems to have played an important role in the development of the MIL-K-818 US military knife (see https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,22510.msg1358285.html#msg1358285). It's interesting that it was also very quickly adopted by numerous different makers (the vast majority of US knife makers, as well as many others, like Victorinox). I don't really know what is the full story here, but I'm guessing that the development of this can opener was essentially part of the WW2 war effort and that Imperial was committed to broadly license their patent as a condition for its adoption by the US military forces.

It looks like Victorinox licensed this can opener after the end of WW2, but wasn't really comfortable with it, so they they developed their own patented design in 1951. Meanwhile Wenger continued to use the older style can opener until the 1960's, when they developed their own "dog leg" patented design that they dropped after about a decade (in the mid-1970's) in favor of finally adopting the crab claw can opener. It's interesting to note that by the time when Wenger adopted the crab claw can opener, the patents for both types of openers already expired. They could have freely used the Victorinox-invented can opener that they were forced to use anyway on soldier knives (since the early 1960's), but decided to go with the older crab claw design. Go figure.
Global Moderator No Life Club Posts: 3,461
Re: Vintage 40s/50s BLUE cellidor Victorinox
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2020, 02:26:17 PM »
Wow - Thanks MC - As always the wealth and depth of knowledge in our group is astounding !!

Maybe Wenger took the crab-claw design just to be different from Vic ?  ???  ..... And we do know plenty of people prefer it

Also we know that Vic supplied W with the Soldier COs - So they were not making them in Delémont  :tu: 

Question for me is - Why did W stick with the horrible dog-leg CO for so long?   :think:  - I guess I need to try that one again a few times - I think I only used it once   :pok:

And I do remember many, many moons ago taking a while to get the knack of the Vic CO  :o

Fascinating stuff - Thanks all for your contributions thus far.   :cheers:

 

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