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Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution 11879

Jr. Member Posts: 92
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #90 on: February 07, 2018, 03:01:21 PM »
About backspring Philips driver:
A have practically the same table, but dates are a bit different. I do not remember the source for them.
And there was 5th generation of the screwdriver: I suppose it started to be produced in 1999 or next to it.
On the second picture old type in on the left and new one is on the right. I distinguish them on the tip: new generation has more flat tip and different angle of convergence: on the 3rd graph old type is green and new type is red.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 03:13:35 PM by Frater_Martin »

-Sorry my bed Inglish :) -
Jr. Member Posts: 92
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #91 on: February 07, 2018, 03:11:44 PM »
Here is an extract of my article about the can/tin opener and cap lifter spring evolution. Briefly:
K1 had flat corkscrew surface
K2 had surface with little protrusion
K3, K4, K5 have different shapes of connected keyring tool.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 03:14:01 PM by Frater_Martin »

-Sorry my bed Inglish :) -
Jr. Member Posts: 92
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #92 on: February 07, 2018, 03:18:09 PM »
On the picture there are 3 incarnations of inline screwdriver, at the spreadsheet 3rd one is missed.

-Sorry my bed Inglish :) -
Jr. Member Posts: 92
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #93 on: February 07, 2018, 03:26:37 PM »
And evolution of mag.glass/Ph screwdriver spring.
Somewhere it is written, that spring type of 1991-2002 was producing until 2007 for some knifes.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 06:21:44 PM by Frater_Martin »

-Sorry my bed Inglish :) -
Jr. Member Posts: 92
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #94 on: February 07, 2018, 06:06:22 PM »
Minichamp, I have almost same classification of the reamers.
But I distinguish two types of pre-1983 reamer, but could not yet the time border between them.
Last two photos show both sides of transitional reamer of 1986.

And I have the question: on the Internet the majority of sources claim that sewing eye on the awl was implemented in 1985, but some - that in 1986. There is the true?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 06:23:54 PM by Frater_Martin »

-Sorry my bed Inglish :) -
Jr. Member Posts: 92
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #95 on: February 07, 2018, 06:17:15 PM »
There were two types of old magnification glass with holder made of grey plastic. Changing happened in 1986, I suppose. At least I have newer seen the oldest magnification glass after 1986.

-Sorry my bed Inglish :) -
Jr. Member Posts: 92
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #96 on: February 07, 2018, 06:31:30 PM »
Minichamp, this is for your collection of blade stamps of the crossbow:
In first variant the cross, crossbow and "C" touch each other, in second - not.
I think the change happened in 1994 or near to this.

-Sorry my bed Inglish :) -
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 15,093 Yoo-hoo, big summer blowout!
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #97 on: February 07, 2018, 07:30:02 PM »
Information overload.  :ahhh
 :like: :like: :like: :like:

Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!
No Life Club Posts: 1,373
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #98 on: February 07, 2018, 09:01:17 PM »
- Where he finds the elusive square SD with no file and no can key

Seems to be a bit of ... confusion maybe?... about the no file, no can key Phillips. Here's the deal - this exists in two forms:

1. Elinox Philips drivers from c. 1957-1970. As a matter of course ALL Elinox models (Motorist, Tinker, Hiker) got no file versions of the Philips. This is a cost saving measure - Elinox being the cheaper brand and all, not cutting the file in (and polishing it) saved time and thus money. You will see the occasional Elinox model with a regular "filed" Philips - not sure if these were "oops grabbed the wrong driver" or "uh oh we're out of Elinox drivers, use the regular ones until more are made" but they show up about 10% of the time.

2. All drivers for a brief period in the early 1970s, let's say 1971-2. This is basically the exact same as the can-key version, simply without the can key. By about 73 the can key is introduced and that's the end of those.
No Life Club Posts: 1,373
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #99 on: February 07, 2018, 09:03:31 PM »
Here are a couple knives which lead me to believe the wire scraper was no longer used in the early 70's.  Still don't have an exact date but I want to say '72 or '73  Neither of these knives have the wire scraper

The scraper was dropped around 72 like you say. It was first dropped for a temp period in c. 1969, then brought back, then dropped again for good before 1974.
No Life Club Posts: 1,373
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #100 on: February 07, 2018, 09:09:25 PM »
El Corkscrew, thanks a lot! That's I need!
But! It has an awl without bevel on the tip, is not it? According to my observations, this type of awl was produced in 1983-1985. It is strange - in 1973 it must have bevelled awl, I suppose. Am I wrong?

This awl probably just doesn't have the bevel ground on very well. In those days a lot of that would still have been done by hand, so variations like that are common. You really need to be able to see if the awl tapers or not - the 83-88 type awls will taper to about 50% of their thickness at the point. The older bevel awls have very little taper - maybe 80% of their thickness at the tip.
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,154
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #101 on: February 07, 2018, 09:12:37 PM »
Here are a couple knives which lead me to believe the wire scraper was no longer used in the early 70's.  Still don't have an exact date but I want to say '72 or '73  Neither of these knives have the wire scraper

The scraper was dropped around 72 like you say. It was first dropped for a temp period in c. 1969, then brought back, then dropped again for good before 1974.
Thanks JB!!! Great info!

That explains a Spartan with bail and no scraper I recently got.  :cheers:

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
No Life Club Posts: 1,373
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #102 on: February 07, 2018, 09:15:29 PM »
Hi, guys. I have one more question. Everywhere we can see, that logo shield on the top scale changed fron nickel-silver to stainless steel in 1980. But can we be sure, pretty sure in this date? I have a 74mm knife with one leaf type spring on the scissors and the shield made of stainless steel. On the Internet I have seen several knifes with SS shield but with tools from 1970s. I know official position of Victorinox in their documents, but I see the reality.
So the question is: is it possible, that this change happend before 1980? Maybe 1980 - is the year of changing on 91mm knifes, but for small size knifes it happend earlier... I do not know.

Very likely. Most people think that various "tool evolution dates" apply uniformly across all product lines, but there is a ton of evidence that they do not. Best example I can think of is the sewing eye in the awl was introduced c 1986 on the 91mm line, but 84mm knives continued to use the eye-less version seemingly into the early 1990s. 84mm knives went to the thin 2.0mm tang almost 10 years before it was changed on the 91mm knives. Stuff like that.
No Life Club Posts: 1,373
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #103 on: February 07, 2018, 09:19:51 PM »
I know jazzbass has commented about the common years the Tang stamp was blank. I believe it was 73,75 and 77.

Correct. There are blank stamp versions of the older 2.7mm Victoria blades and the later 2.4mm Officier Suisse blades. The pen blade style can sometimes be a guide to which main blade type you have: spear-point pen = 2.4mm main; clip point pen can be 2.4 or 2.7, but is usually the 2.7mm main blade.
Full Member Posts: 224
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #104 on: February 07, 2018, 11:27:25 PM »
Minichamp, I have almost same classification of the reamers.
But I distinguish two types of pre-1983 reamer, but could not yet the time border between them.
Last two photos show both sides of transitional reamer of 1986.

And I have the question: on the Internet the majority of sources claim that sewing eye on the awl was implemented in 1985, but some - that in 1986. There is the true?

I don't know. To the best of my understanding, the main source for 1985 being the year when the sewing eye was introduced is Victorinox. They list this in 1985 along with the introduction of the 90 degrees stop on the cap lifter, the introduction of the chisel, and the new shape for the backside small screwdriver. Since I have several 91mm SAKs with the 90 degrees stop and no sewing eye, I do believe that the sewing eye was added a bit later than the 90 degrees stop, but I'm not really sure what this implies. It can imply that the 90 degrees stop was actually introduced in 1984, or that the sewing eye was only introduced 1986, or...

My personal tendency is to "adopt" the transition years that Victorinox lists except for the cases where I am aware of strong evidence that they are wrong. This is the reason why I listed 1985 as the relevant year. JAZZBASS is undoubtedly a much bigger expert than me and it seems like he thinks that the right year is 1986. He is probably right.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 11:30:09 PM by MiniChamp »
No Life Club Posts: 1,373
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #105 on: February 07, 2018, 11:43:46 PM »
My personal tendency is to "adopt" the transition years that Victorinox lists except for the cases where I am aware of strong evidence that they are wrong. This is the reason why I listed 1985 as the relevant year. JAZZBASS is undoubtedly a much bigger expert than me and it seems like he thinks that the right year is 1986. He is probably right.

This is my tendency as well, but there are many cases (as folks on this thread are discovering) where even "official" dates are wrong. There is another aspect to this that I've written about before, and that is that people need to think about how Victorinox is a knife manufacturer and what that means. Big plant, lots of parts in different areas, and new items introduced as the engineers feel they are ready (i.e. there are no "model years"). And, because MOST of the stuff they change is evolutionary and not revolutionary, it is very common to see things phased in over a period of time or see weird mixes of different features over a multi-year time frame for things that were supposed to be introduced "at the same time".

For example, 1991 is often listed as the year when the grooved corkscrew disappears, the multipurpose hook appears, and the key ring attachment moves to the backspring of the openers. However, its pretty common to see knives from the 1990-1992 era with mixtures of old and new for these features. Victorinox isn't like a car manufacturer that shuts down all summer for retooling and comes back online in September making a new model year of changes. They would introduce the changes as available and roll them out. So it's 1992 and someone finds a box of old grooved corkscrews in the warehouse, you don't toss them because they don't fit or you changed back in 91, you dump them in the parts bin and use them up.

This is the main reason that almost every date you see me post will have a "c" (for circa) in front of it. Approximately. So if I see a knife has a sewing eye awl and a tang stamp with a small "v", I'll say c 1986. In reality that knife could have been made in 1985 with the earliest sewing eye awls to come out, or in 1987 when someone was using up old stock blades with the old stamp.
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,154
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #106 on: February 08, 2018, 02:13:26 AM »
That awl makes sense  :tu:  :cheers:

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
Full Member Posts: 224
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #107 on: February 08, 2018, 02:37:22 AM »
My personal tendency is to "adopt" the transition years that Victorinox lists except for the cases where I am aware of strong evidence that they are wrong. This is the reason why I listed 1985 as the relevant year. JAZZBASS is undoubtedly a much bigger expert than me and it seems like he thinks that the right year is 1986. He is probably right.

This is my tendency as well, but there are many cases (as folks on this thread are discovering) where even "official" dates are wrong. There is another aspect to this that I've written about before, and that is that people need to think about how Victorinox is a knife manufacturer and what that means. Big plant, lots of parts in different areas, and new items introduced as the engineers feel they are ready (i.e. there are no "model years"). And, because MOST of the stuff they change is evolutionary and not revolutionary, it is very common to see things phased in over a period of time or see weird mixes of different features over a multi-year time frame for things that were supposed to be introduced "at the same time".

For example, 1991 is often listed as the year when the grooved corkscrew disappears, the multipurpose hook appears, and the key ring attachment moves to the backspring of the openers. However, its pretty common to see knives from the 1990-1992 era with mixtures of old and new for these features. Victorinox isn't like a car manufacturer that shuts down all summer for retooling and comes back online in September making a new model year of changes. They would introduce the changes as available and roll them out. So it's 1992 and someone finds a box of old grooved corkscrews in the warehouse, you don't toss them because they don't fit or you changed back in 91, you dump them in the parts bin and use them up.

This is the main reason that almost every date you see me post will have a "c" (for circa) in front of it. Approximately. So if I see a knife has a sewing eye awl and a tang stamp with a small "v", I'll say c 1986. In reality that knife could have been made in 1985 with the earliest sewing eye awls to come out, or in 1987 when someone was using up old stock blades with the old stamp.

You are certainly right. I think that what you describe is probably why changes that involve multiple parts are likely to have sharper timing than those involving individual parts. When they changed the thickness of the main blade shank from 2.7mm to 2.4mm, for example, this also involved changing the spring and the corresponding backside tool (corkscrew or Phillips SD), so I expect such a change to have a relatively sharp timing and I believe that this was indeed the case.

While it's probably not practical (and not even very meaningful) to date a SAK with an error margin of less than a year or two, I am under the impression that the main purpose of this thread is to help create a table in which every tool change is assigned to a specific year. As you unraveled here and elsewhere, not every change that was made really lends itself to such a simplistic description. Still, it seems that most changes can be at least approximately described in this way for the practical purpose of dating SAKs with reasonable accuracy. The practical question then becomes: Which specific year is the best one to assign to a given change?

As I tried to make clear, the years that I proposed for various changes earlier in this thread are basically just estimates. I think that it would be a good thing if people possessing the knowledge to do so will either confirm or suggest improvements to such estimates. This can help the table to converge to something that will be as accurate as possible.

Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,154
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #108 on: February 08, 2018, 03:27:59 AM »
For my interests... Threads like this are exactly why I joined this forum. :salute:

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,596 Firm believer of Sturgeon's Law
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #109 on: February 08, 2018, 12:37:58 PM »
this thread and information in it is awesome!  :o
Incredible work guys!  :cheers:

My toys:

MTs: Surge (2x), Skeletool CX, Rebar, Blast, Fuse, Micra, Squirt (3x), Wave, Crunch, Mini, Spirit (2x), Pro Scout, MP700 (2x), Diesel, Powerlock, PowerPlier (2x), PocketPowerPlier, Blacktip , ST6 (2x), 5WR, A100

SAKs: Bantam, Executive, Ambassador, Minichamp, Classic Alox, Champion, Farmer, Explorer, Swisschamp, Golf Tool, Wenger Champ, EVO 52, Pocket Tool Chest
Global Moderator No Life Club Posts: 3,643
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #110 on: February 13, 2018, 04:47:47 AM »
Information overload.  :ahhh
 :like: :like: :like: :like:

Absolutely Pabs

Great to see all this amazing information and discussion folks. Thanks so much FM, MC and JB      :cheers:
Guys - This is beyond Platinum level of expertise/knowledge        :o      :tu:

Give me a while to process it -
I think a couple of principles (that are already listed in the sheet) will stand:
- The table is mainly for 91mm
- Dates are always estimates !!
To those I might add - That I will concentrate on visible/external changes - Eg: Some of the spring changes are very subtle!!
 
Having said that I will get it as accurate as possible - and also try to get as much into the chart as I can

So, surprise, surprise - We will have a version X  !!    ......And probably beyond !

Frater M - Is the info in the posts above what you were referring to when you said in the previous page....  "May I make some changes?"  ?
.. As I always rely on you guys to provide the info !
... Or did you mean you want to change the sheet directly ?
PM me if we need to discuss this please.
 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 07:29:45 AM by Huntsman »
Jr. Member Posts: 92
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #111 on: February 14, 2018, 06:41:09 PM »
Give me a while to process it -
I think a couple of principles (that are already listed in the sheet) will stand:
- The table is mainly for 91mm
- Dates are always estimates !!
To those I might add - That I will concentrate on visible/external changes - Eg: Some of the spring changes are very subtle!!

Of course, I understand that some historical changes are tooo subtle to be included into the table. I have put that information, just to allow this be here, on MTO. Because I would not want to create new separate thread for any new detail or change I have found in Victorinox.

And look. In the table there is a date of pin-hole appearing on the scales. In Victorinox the history of the hole appearing on the regular scales was a bit tricky and messy. Later I will tell you about the dates because the evidence base is too huge and is not complete yet.

Frater M - Is the info in the posts above what you were referring to when you said in the previous page....  "May I make some changes?"  ?
.. As I always rely on you guys to provide the info !
... Or did you mean you want to change the sheet directly ?

I had mentioned "I have something to add, may I [add]?", so I do not pretend to change your table. And I added it later. Sorry for this misunderstanding.

-Sorry my bed Inglish :) -
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,648
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #112 on: May 31, 2018, 12:00:07 PM »
*Posted in wrong thread.
Original thread linked me here*
Newbie Posts: 29
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #113 on: October 19, 2019, 10:02:26 PM »
Hi everyone,
Im a new memeber but frequently read the discissions.
Anyways I just came accross a “Modeler” ? It is definitely a modeler but the metal saw/file has a wood saw cut??? Has anyone ever seen this? It seems like a metal saw was accidently machined with woodsaw teeth but still has the file. I cant find anything about this but it is cool!  :climber:
Full Member Posts: 126
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #114 on: May 22, 2021, 09:21:17 AM »
The info in this thread is fantastic!

I just spent two hours dating my five 91mm SAKs.  :ahhh

Current SAKs: Champion, Bijou (2), Classic SD, Cavalier, Mini Champ, Swiss Champ (2), Explorer (2), Deluxe Tinker, Climber, Pioneer Alox, Bantam, Evolution S557
Global Moderator No Life Club Posts: 3,643
Re: Something to help you date your Vic SAKS based on tool evolution
« Reply #115 on: May 22, 2021, 02:17:33 PM »
That’s great - Thanks  :tu:
We have some very knowledgeable SAK aficionados  here.    :salute:
:climber:

 

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