Evolution of Wood Saws on 91mm Victorinox SAKs

[MiniChamp]

I'm trying to study the evolution of wood saws on 91mm Victorinox SAKs. The main idea is to create a table with pictures of as many different saw variants as can be identified and with the appropriate range of years for each of them. While I personally find this evolution to be interesting in its own right, I also expect that such a table would be an important resource for dating SAKs from periods when saw variants changed frequently (such as from the mid-1940's to the mid-1960's). So far, I identified 11 different variants that exist in my collection and appear in the first attached image. As further explained below, while I'm certain about only two more variants that I don't have (but must exist), I believe that there are likely to be more than that.

I'm hoping that the experts here will help me complete the picture, mainly by providing the following:
1) Descriptions (and hopefully also images) of variants that are currently still missing.
2) Estimates for the appropriate year ranges for each of the variants.

In order to easily describe different saw variants, I find it convenient to introduce the following terminology: I define the RIGHT (LEFT) side of a saw to be the side that is on the right (left) side of a person using that saw (in a natural way). I say that a tooth is a right (left) tooth if its bigger portion is on the right (left) side of the saw. For a given saw, I denote by Rn the number of right teeth and by Ln the number of left teeth. If Rn is bigger than Ln, I say that the saw is right-weighted. If Ln is bigger than Rn, I say that the saw is left-weighted. If Rn equals Ln, I say that the saw is unweighted. Finally, I denote the teeth configuration for any given saw by Rn+Ln. For example, the saws on current 91mm Victorinox SAKs have 15+14 teeth (and are thus right-weighted). Note that the expression 15+14 is NOT THE SAME AS 14+15. Both imply that a saw has 29 teeth, but since the the first number in the sum is the number of right teeth and the second is the number of left teeth, the expression 15+14 is a short way of saying that the saw has 15 teeth on its right side and 14 teeth on its left side. Thus, it is right-weighted and its total number of teeth is 29.

Interestingly, the only unweighted wood saws that I ever encountered on Victorinox branded SAKs are the saws with 21+21 teeth on some recent 130mm Rangers (see, for example, the Ranger in this post). They seem to have been inherited from Wenger, as these are also the saws on the last generation of Wenger branded 130mm Rangers. Since on some other recent Victorinox 130mm Rangers there are saws with 22+21 teeth, it looks like one of the changes that Victorinox made as part of moving away from Wenger branded SAKs was to ensure that all their saws are right-weighted (like they are on all other current Victorinox SAKs). While the preference for weighted saws seems to be a long Victorinox tradition, this preference wasn't always for right-weighted saws. As can be seen in the first attached image, there were times when they actually alternated between left-weighted saws to right-weighted saws and back. Why? I have absolutely no idea.

Anyway, the first attached image has my current (temporary and incomplete) table. It includes, for each variant, a type designation along with a short description and a rough dating estimate for the SAK on which it is found. The type designations are in the form XYn(x), namely, two capital letters, followed by a number, optionally followed by a small letter indicating a potential subtle variation. The first capital letter designates the material: S for stainless steel and C for carbon steel. Unfortunately, I don't yet have images of any carbon steel saws, so all the saws in the current table have designations starting with an S. The second capital letter designates a general form type: W stands for "wide" and N for "narrow." It should be noted that while the wide form saws (that seem to include all of the saws since the early 1950's) have different teeth configurations, they all have roughly the same overall shape with shanks that are about 11.5mm wide and 1.65mm thick. The earlier narrow form saws have a somewhat different overall shape that is narrower near the shank. Their shanks have somewhat varying dimensions, but in comparison to the shanks of the wide form saws they are all narrower by more than 1mm (I measured widths in the 9.7-10.3mm range) and are a bit thicker (by 0.1-0.3mm). The number following the two capital letters is simply a running type counter. Higher numbers are supposed to correspond to later variants, although, due to things being a little different for the Elinox line, this correspondence is only rough (and it probably cannot be made precise). Finally, there are currently two types of subtle variation designators following the numbers for some variants. The "l" for some 1940's narrow form saws designates an extra-long (or extra-large) nail nick (there is further discussion of this below). The "n" for the most recent saws stands for "new" and designates the subtle reshaping of the tip of the saws that occurred around 1980 along with the introduction of a new bulge on the edge of the spring that supports the tip of the saw when it is folded (see the second attached image).

My questions are as follows:

1) What other saw variants that are not in my current table exist? While it is possible (but not certain) that I managed to obtain all of the variants that were made since the late-1940's, Victorinox made wood saws for more than 40 years before then and all I have from all this time is just one variant. Surely, there are more. At the very minimum, I expect the following: First, there should be a type SN1l from the early 1940's (namely, a variant with 13+14 teeth like type SN1, but with an extra-long nail nick; such a saw, albeit on a model 310 knife, has been shown here by M0rkoni; I expect that it can also be found on 91mm Officer's knives). Second, there is clearly at least one variant made of carbon steel. I should point out that while the majority of the images of pre-1940 saws on 91mm Victorinox SAKs that I encountered over the internet look like my type SN1 (left-weighted narrow form with 13+14 teeth, such as the one on Ulli's remarkable "vintage alox knife"), there is also an exception: The upper SAK in the third image of this post (WARNING: it's a picture-heavy link) on Couteaux du monde looks like a very early Victorinox with a right-weighted saw. So, unless this is by some chance the only carbon steel variant and they switched from right-weighted to left-weighted saws precisely along with the transition to stainless steel, there are more variants. I would be particularly interested to see some images of the saw on the remarkable "EORG Huntsman" whose top and bottom sides were shown by JazzBass in this post, as well as images of any other variant that isn't in my current table.

2) What are the appropriate production year ranges for each of the saw variants? While I expect that for most variants there should be a simple range (such as 1951-54, say) during which they were installed on essentially all the produced (Victorinox 91mm) SAKs with a saw, in certain other cases the specification may need to be more complex. In particular, it seems likely to me that type SW6 first appeared on Elinox SAKs around the time that type SW5 appeared on the regular line SAKs and was adapted for the regular line SAKs only a few years later. If so, it should have two year ranges: a range for Elinox SAKs and a range for regular line SAKs. Moreover, I expect that type SW4 was used only on Elinox knives (possibly since their introduction in 1957 until it was replaced on this line by type SW6) and that types SW3 and SW5 were used only on regular-line SAKs. If so, the relevant ranges for these types should be noted along with the restrictions to particular lines.

3) What's the deal with the extra-long nail nicks that occur on some of the saws from the 1940's? While there are always some production variations in the sizes of nail nicks, the phenomenon of extra-long nicks going all the way through the edge of the saw (such as the one on the shown type SN2l saw) seems to be more like a different design than a mere production variation. As far as I can tell, such extra-long nicks are found on some of the saws from the 1940's (possibly even late 1930's; I don't know). This seems to include some left-weighted saws from the early 1940's, as well as some right-weighted saws from the late 1940's. One possible scenario is that these extra-long nail nicks were introduced for all saws at some point and then just dropped at some other point. If this is the case, then the type SN1l saws are just the latest variation of type SN1 saws and the type SN2l saws are the earliest variation of type SN2 saws. Another possible scenario, as far as I can tell, is that these extra-long nicks are more like a production variation and were produced on just some (but not all) of the saws in some period. Can anyone tell what is going on here?

Any help with the above questions will be greatly appreciated.

As a final remark, I should point out that this study, at this point, is focused purely on 91mm Victorinox SAKs. The evolution of wood saws on 84mm Victorinox SAKs is not unrelated, but is nevertheless significantly decoupled. Some notable differences include:
1) The saws on 84mm SAKs lost their nail nicks several years earlier (in the early or mid-1950's).
2) For much of the 1950's and 1960's the saws on 84mm SAKs had 18+17 teeth. The size of the teeth on these saws seems to be essentially the same as that of the type SW2 saws with 20+19 teeth on 91mm SAKs. So, while the saws with such small teeth existed on 91mm SAKs for only a short time, they persisted much longer on 84mm SAKs.

[Reinier]

I have nothing to add, but I'm impressed by your research.

[ThePeacent]

me too   

[MiniChamp]

Thanks! I think that I took it as far as I can with my own resources. Now I'm hoping for some help.     

[Wspeed]

That's a nice bit of information 

[Ron Who]

Impressive!   

I    woodsaws!

Your formal expressions to describe woodsaws are very interesting. One thing confuses me though. In an expression like 14+15, the left number denotes the teeth on the right side of the saw, and vice versa. (I guess it´s too late to change it now after you´ve done all that work).

[MiniChamp]

Your formal expressions to describe woodsaws are very interesting. One thing confuses me though. In an expression like 14+15, the left number denotes the teeth on the right side of the saw, and vice versa. (I guess it´s too late to change it now after you´ve done all that work).

You are right, of course. I am probably guilty of introducing bad notation. I was thinking of the right side as also being the FRONT side, since this is the side facing the front of the SAK, and of the 15 in 15+14 as being the FIRST, so it somehow seemed to me natural to associate the front direction with the first term. It never really occurred to me before that the expression 15+14 also has its own left/right directions.

[shadowrider]

That's a great research! 

[MiniChamp]

Many thanks to all those who responded. Ron's remark above convinced me that my proposed Rn+Ln notation is likely to be confusing to people. Namely, it's probably better to say that a saw is right-weighted and has 29 teeth than to say that it has 15+14 teeth (which is equivalent). I will thus refrain from using the Rn+Ln notation going forward.

I discovered another saw variant that I didn't know exist. It's a left-weighted variant with 39 teeth from the mid-1950's. It is similar to the variant that I called SW2 above, but it's left-weighted instead of being right-weighted. I found images of it on a mid-1950's model 237, while going over some images that I had saved on my PC (mostly from internet sales). I don't know if this left-weighted variant came before or after the corresponding right-weighted variant with 39 teeth.

This finding of a new variant poses a problem for my previously introduced type designations that relied on a chronological running counter. If I would try to fit this new type to that system, I would run into two problems: First, I don't really know if this should be type SW2 or SW3. Second, most designations would need to change (their counter should get increased by 1), which would make things very confusing. Hence, I decided to drop this system of type designations and to develop a new one that would be based on fully encoding the properties of the different variants in their type designations. In principle, this type of system should allow adding newly discovered variants without changing any existing designations.

The newly proposed type designations are of the form UVnnWXYZ(x), where U,V,W,X,Y,Z are capital characters, nn is a two-digit number, and x is a single-character optional additional designation that is only assigned in special cases.
These characters and the number designate the following:
[Material][Form][Teeth Number][Teeth symmetry][Teeth Weighting][[Nail Nick Type][Finish]([Optional Additional Designation])
where the corresponding options are:
[Carbon|Stainless][Narrow|Wide][27|39|29][Asymmetric|Symmetric][Left|Right|][Standard|Long|None][Polished|Brushed](x)
and they are denoted in the shortened form:
[C|S][N|W][27|39|29][A|S][L|R][S|L|N][P|B](x)

So far, the only "Optional Additional Designation" that has been assigned is "n" for the current saw variant (which, as far as I can tell, didn't change since the early-1980's).

For example, the wood saws that are usually encountered on early-1950's 91mm Victorinox SAKs are made of stainless steel and they have a wide form (defined as having a shank wider than 11mm), 27 asymmetric teeth in a left-weighted configuration, standard nail nick and a polished finish. The corresponding designation for these features is SW27ALSP (which stands for Stainless-Wide-27-Asymmetric-Left-Standard-Polished), so I say that such saws are of Type SW27ALSP.

Another example: The wood saws on current SAKs are made of stainless steel and they have a wide form, 29 symmetric teeth in a right-weighted configuration, no nail nick and a brushed finish. The corresponding designation for these features is SW29SRNB and they have characterized the wood saws on 91mm Victorinox SAKs since the late-mid-1960's. Since, as explained in the opening post of this thread above, there was a subtle change to the tip of the saws around 1980, I use the Type SW29SRNB designation for the first generation of saws with the corresponding features (namely, those made since about the late-mid-1960's to the late 1970's) and for the current saws I'm using the Type SW29SRNBn designation.

Anyway, the attached image has the latest version of the table with the new type designations and also place holders for all the types that I know exist, but for which I don't have appropriate images at present.

I would greatly appreciate any feedback on the newly proposed type designations (have I gone completely out of my mind? ), as well as any help answering the questions in the above opening post of this thread. Thanks!

[MiniChamp]

I recently managed to obtain SAKs with two types of wood saws that were previously missing (the April 2018 version of the table had place holders for these types, but no images). I am thus posting an updated table.

[Nick4]

I am thus posting an updated table.

Many thanks! 

[ThePeacent]

amazing work!! 

[MiniChamp]

Many thanks for the positive responses!

[jnoxyd]

Great work MiniChamp!
Some thoughts about dating (91mm): I believe they changed 27 teeth style to 29 teeth with small nick in great transition period 1951-1952 when many new tools were introduced. Later (c.1957)  they started tip opening wood saw type without nail nick. Time of changing asymmetric to symmetric teeth in 1960s is unknown but earlier JazzBass offered mid. 1965 according to statistics.
What do you think?

[MiniChamp]

Great work MiniChamp!
Some thoughts about dating (91mm): I believe they changed 27 teeth style to 29 teeth with small nick in great transition period 1951-1952 when many new tools were introduced. Later (c.1957)  they started tip opening wood saw type without nail nick. Time of changing asymmetric to symmetric teeth in 1960s is unknown but earlier JazzBass offered mid. 1965 according to statistics.
What do you think?

Thanks for your post, Jnoxyd! 

Regarding the changes in the 1950's: As I previously pointed out, I believe that Victorinox didn't go from saws with 27 teeth directly to saws with 29 teeth. As shown above, on SAKs from the mid-1950's one often finds saws with 39 teeth. I believe that when Victorinox moved away from 27 teeth, they first changed to a saw version with 39 teeth and only after a few more years they changed to a saw version with 29 teeth. It's hard for me to tell when exactly these changes were made, but if I'm forced to guess, I would put the change from 27 teeth to 39 teeth around 1954 and the change from 39 teeth to 29 teeth around 1956. The removal of the nail nick from the saws seems to have taken place after the change to hidden rivets (also, one finds saws with nail nicks on ELINOX SAKs that supposedly didn't exist before 1957). Hence, I believe that this change occurred sometime after 1957 (possibly in 1958 or 1959, say). The following (previously posted) image illustrates some of the evolution in the 1950's:



Note that the bottom SAK has a saw with a nail nick along with hidden rivets.

Regarding the change to symmetric teeth: I previously guessed 1966. As far as I can tell, 1965 is certainly also possible.

[jnoxyd]

You are right, they didn't go from 27 to 29 teeth in early 1950s just changed nail nick type from large one usual in last 1940s to small nick. Looks like they produced 39 teeth saw till 1957. Here is my Champion with 39 teeth saw, post 1957 hidden rivets but old (pre1957?) square LNF nick and rounded bail.
What are the blade stamps on your knife with 29 teeth saw with nail nick?

[MiniChamp]

You are right, they didn't go from 27 to 29 teeth in early 1950s just changed nail nick type from large one usual in last 1940s to small nick. Looks like they produced 39 teeth saw till 1957. Here is my Champion with 39 teeth saw, post 1957 hidden rivets but old (pre1957?) square LNF nick and rounded bail.

Many thanks for these images, Jnoxyd! I have never seen before now a saw with 39 teeth on a Victorinox SAK with hidden rivets, so this is very interesting for me. Since I did see saws with 29 teeth on SAKs with visible rivets, like the one in the first attached image below, it looks like the transition from 39 teeth to 29 teeth indeed happened around the same time of the transition to hidden rivets (presumably 1957).

What is also very interesting for me is the fact that your saw with 39 teeth is right-weighted (type SW39ARSP). Before now I had no way of telling if the right-weighted saws with 39 teeth came before or after the left-weighted ones. Your SAK suggests very strongly that the first saws with 39 teeth were left-weighted and that they got changed later on (possibly around 1955, say) to right-weighted saws with 39 teeth.

Regarding the changes in the late 1940's/early 1950's: Some of the wood saws on SAKs from the 1946-51 period, like the one in the second attached image below, have standard nail nicks. I thus tend to believe that the change from extra-long nail nicks to standard nail nicks (namely, the change from type SN27ARLP saws to type SN27ARSP saws; the only difference between these two types is in the nail nicks) occurred at some point towards the end of the 1946-51 period (possibly 1950, say). This change is not the big change that occurred a little later in the early 1950's. What happened with the big changes of the early 1950's (along with the change of distances between the rivets, change to aluminum liners, introduction of several new tools, etc.) is first and foremost a significant change to the shape of the saws from what I called above narrow-form saws to wide-form saws. The narrow-form saws of the 1940's have shanks that are about 10mm wide and 1.75mm thick, whereas the shanks of the wide-form saws are about 11.5mm wide and 1.65mm thick (like the ones on current SAKs). It looks like along side this change from narrow-form to wide-form (namely, from type SN27ARSP saws to type SW27ALSP saws) the teeth weighting also changed from right to left, but I believe that the type of the nail nick changed a little before then.

Do you happen to know when they started with the extra-long nail nicks?

What are the blade stamps on your knife with 29 teeth saw with nail nick?

The blade stamps on the model 236fmaU from the image above are identical to the blade stamps on the model 236aU in the first attached image below: VICTORIA-OFFICIER-SUISSE (which can be seen in the image) on the back along with the usual VICTORINOX-SWITZERLAND-STAINLESS-ROSTFREI on the front. However, the same saw variant can also be found on SAKs with the VICTORIA-OFFICIER stamp on the back of the blade, such as the one in this post by GigaHz.

[jnoxyd]

My Benrus and other 1940s knives  have long nail nick

Earlier knives from my friend Rene (aka Der Eidgenosse YouTube ) have small nail nick. So we need more knife pictures from that period to tracing the changes . Maybe MTO members can show  knives they have.

BTW 236 aU you shown above has visible rivets and VOS CB/ VSSR stamp that was introduced c.1957 (IMHO) instead of previous VO CB/VSS (1952-1957) so your knife is c.1957.

[MiniChamp]

My Benrus and other 1940s knives  have long nail nick
Earlier knives from my friend Rene (aka Der Eidgenosse YouTube ) have small nail nick.

Thanks a lot for these images, Jnoxyd!    I'm learning interesting things from them. I'm particularly intrigued by the middle SAK on the second image. The saw on this SAK is right-weighted and looks very similar to the saw on my above Benrus SAK. This makes me think that it may be from around the same time, but the color of the scale seems a bit wrong for a cellidor SAK. Do you have more images and/or other information about this SAK?

So we need more knife pictures from that period to tracing the changes . Maybe MTO members can show  knives they have.

Yes. It would indeed be great if more MTO members will post relevant images. Please please please...  

BTW 236 aU you shown above has visible rivets and VOS CB/ VSSR stamp that was introduced c.1957 (IMHO) instead of previous VO CB/VSS (1952-1957) so your knife is c.1957.

I believe that you are correct.

[jnoxyd]

Sorry, MiniChamp, I forgot to show another side of this knife. It has fiber scales and older style can opener. I'll ask Rene show us blade stamps when he come back from his Switzerland trip.

[MiniChamp]

Sorry, MiniChamp, I forgot to show another side of this knife. It has fiber scales and older style can opener. I'll ask Rene show us blade stamps when he come back from his Switzerland trip.

Very interesting. If it has fiber scales, I guess it's probably from the late 1930's. I have never seen a right-weighted saw on a Victorinox SAK from around this time before. It would indeed be great to see the blade stamps on this SAK. Thanks!

[jnoxyd]

Blade stamps of knives shown above from Rene ES aka Der Eidgenosse

[ddogu]

Sir, you are one diligent person! Hats off

[MiniChamp]

Blade stamps of knives shown above from Rene ES aka Der Eidgenosse

Thanks, Jnoxyd! These images are very interesting. The SAK with the fiber scales (the second from the top) now looks to me even more intriguing. I have seen its blade stamps (VICTORIA-SWITZERLAND-STAINLESS on the front, nothing on the back) on several SAKs from the early 1950's, such as the 1950's model 246aU that you show in this post, but never before on a SAK with the pre-1946 can opener and/or with fiber scales.

[jnoxyd]

Hi, MiniChamp, here's one more saw to your pics collection, Woodsman mid.1950s

[Rapidray]

Great information and photos  thanks for sharing

[MiniChamp]

Hi, MiniChamp, here's one more saw to your pics collection, Woodsman mid.1950s

Thanks!    I'm guessing it's from the late-mid-1950's (1956-7?), because of the saw with 29 teeth.

[Shrubberryman]

Hey Minichamp. If I may ask for your help a minute sir? I recently obtained what I believe is the mid 50s Woodsman or 236u with the 19+20 tooth saw blade. Over all pretty good condition and trying to determine value to sell or trade.
I'm not a collector and if I keep it it'll get careied and used. I'm sure someone who collects them would appreciate it more.
Since you are the only person who seems to even know this model exists. Or at least that I can find(lol) I hoped maybe you could help or point me in the right direction.
Also, awesome post. Very interesting material.
Thanks in advance.
Shrub.

[MiniChamp]

I recently obtained what I believe is the mid 50s Woodsman or 236u with the 19+20 tooth saw blade. Over all pretty good condition and trying to determine value to sell or trade.

Welcome to the forum! I think that SAKs of the type that you describe (in good condition) usually sell on eBay for prices in the $50-$200 range. It can depend on how good the condition really is and on the dynamics of the bidding.

[Rapidray]

Great thread...great photos and excellent information. I enjoyed it a lot.