Firearms...the original multi tool?

[Etherealicer]

[...]For example, the LA County Sheriff's office has established that in order to safely counter a knife with a gun, the officer requires a minimum of 21 feet of distance, and, even in that situation, the officer must be running backwards in an arc.  Only then do they have the necessary time to draw, aim and fire two rounds, center of mass.[...]

This is commonly referred to as the Tueller Drill
Although I think the main point is to train drawing, reading and shooting quickly while under pressure.

[Grant Lamontagne]

G-Dizzle, you are absolutely correct.  Training, both mental and physical are absolute necessities, and absolutely you should carry one.  You never know when it will come in handy.  To me, it isn't about whether or not people should carry, it's about how people should have the choice available to them as to whether or not they carry.

Sadly my generation wears our pants too tightly to be able to draw anything from a pocket fast enough to be useful, even if we have half a mile instead of 21 feet!   

Def

[Nix]

..a Browning hipower ...

My Browning P-35 (Hi-Power) is one of my favorites.    Slick, slick action....but I've got thousands of rounds through it now, so it darn well better be smooth.

[Butch]

..a Browning hipower ...

My Browning P-35 (Hi-Power) is one of my favorites.    Slick, slick action....but I've got thousands of rounds through it now, so it darn well better be smooth.

 

[GrandpaPatch]

Thanks to everyone for their replies. There are obviously some strong feelings here about carrying a firearm. Train Safety and Safely Train.

[gerleatherberman]

The thing that makes MT.o so great(multinational and every social class) also makes it a very opinionated place. I generally steer away from posting about firearms, but a couple of times a year I do security at my work for these big store-wide sales. I carry my Bersa Thunder 380 on those days and post it with my EDC for the day.

I do wish some would keep in mind that firearms discussions aren't against the rules on MT.o and it never hurts to just go on to the next thread, instead of posting something that will derail a civilized firearm conversation.
We know guns are dangerous. We know a lot of people have a lot of disdain for them. And we know there are good reasons for the two aforementioned statements. But, we may occasionally like to discuss firearms. Guns are part of life and part of the culture where I was born and raised/live. That is also true of many members here. 

[RF52]

As a Scandinavian I don't have much experience with handguns, but I have used some at a shooting range and that is a lot of fun. But I have to say that it's a good thing we don't have to feel the need to carry a gun for safety/feeling safe.
I have read somewhere that Norway is in the the top 3-5 in weapons per person, it's mostly hunting rifles and shotguns and not weapons for home protection and self protection.
And ad much as I would like to start hunting, I can't really do it because I like the animals alive in their natural habitat much more, and think it's awful that humans have exterminated 70% of all animals on earth the last 60 years.

But shooting targets are so much fun!

Sent fra min FRD-L09 via Tapatalk

[Alan K.]

Really more of an old timey thing but here are a couple of my favorite firearm multitools. The photos are off the interwebs but I will probably never own an example of either of these. First, a French boarding axe pistol, and second, the famous Sharps carbine with coffee grinder built into the stock.  They were a soldier's best friend but real ones are exceptionally rare now.

[Aloha]

I stand corrected.  What interesting guns. 

[gerleatherberman]

Yeah, man. What in the name of off-brand-MTs is up with the coffee grinder stock. I get the idea, but I don't think it is a good idea. The boarding axe pistol I can dig.

[GrandpaPatch]

@Alan K.     

[Grant Lamontagne]

The thing that makes MT.o so great(multinational and every social class) also makes it a very opinionated place. I generally steer away from posting about firearms, but a couple of times a year I do security at my work for these big store-wide sales. I carry my Bersa Thunder 380 on those days and post it with my EDC for the day.

I do wish some would keep in mind that firearms discussions aren't against the rules on MT.o and it never hurts to just go on to the next thread, instead of posting something that will derail a civilized firearm conversation.
We know guns are dangerous. We know a lot of people have a lot of disdain for them. And we know there are good reasons for the two aforementioned statements. But, we may occasionally like to discuss firearms. Guns are part of life and part of the culture where I was born and raised/live. That is also true of many members here. 

Discussing firearms is not against the rules here, but the political discussions that often follow along are.  Also, when you consider that, to some folks, firearms and RTKBA is also pretty much a religion, that is also considered taboo here.

As long as discussions remain civil though, I am glad to let even political and/or religious discussions going.  Unfortunately, even here at MTO these types of discussions usually end up going south, and not in a good way, and it often ends up with people who were friends the day before absolutely hating each other, and that is not the MTO way.

It is encouraged on many other forums because this kind of conflict breeds higher post counts, which results in more $$ for the forum, and more forum related merchandise for sale as guys will try to outdo each other by trying to be the bigger superfan, but frankly I am just not interested in the c*ck swinging that goes along with it.  I understand it, and I get it, and occasionally I get tempted to open a "No Hold Barred" subforum here that members have to request entry to- a place where we turn off the swear filter and let people have their say openly and honestly, but the reality is that it is not going to be left in there, and it will spill over into the rest of MTO and ruin the pleasant vibe.  Because of that, I doubt it will ever happen.  If folks really want to argue, other forums, Twitter and Facebook are all free to use. 

I like guns.  They are fun to (responsibly) play with, and the mechanical aspects of them are fascinating.  I don't like them because they make me feel safe in my own home- I have really big dogs for that.  I don't like them because they make me feel like a man, because I have Jeeps for that. 

I like them because they are fun, and, when handled responsibly (like Jeeps and dogs and internet forums!) they are a joy for everyone around them.  Sure they aren't for everyone, and that's ok too.  It takes all kinds to make the world go round!

Def

[gerleatherberman]

Def,

Thanks and well said as usual. It is hard for me to convey how much I appreciate the fact that you try so hard to keep the peace around here. I have, in the past, been on sites that had "all things go sub-forums", and as you said, the animosity ALWAYS spills over to the rest of the site, where unsuspecting members are left wondering why people seem to be at each other's throats.

-tangent-
As far as RTKBA, it is irrelevant in any discussions about the actual firearms. And bringing it up isn't changing any minds. That horse is already dead. /tangent

[G-Dizzle]

Well said Grant. For the record, I am in RTKBA shall not be infringed camp, yet i think that we just had a good conversation about guns. I think many people that believe what I do get a bad rep from just a few people that are overly confrontational 24/7.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I am also a complete supporter of RTKBA, but I'll tell you, it doesn't mean a damned thing to anyone outside of the US.  The US Constitution holds surprisingly little weight to the rest of the world, regardless of what special interest groups and Hollywood would have you believe.

That's where the RTKBA argument fails on an international forum.  It's like arguing whether it's called a sub, a grinder or a hoagie, they are all right, and all different wherever you go. 

Def

[Nix]

I am also a complete supporter of RTKBA, but I'll tell you, it doesn't mean a damned thing to anyone outside of the US.

I'll avoid delving into potentially divisive political issues here, but it does interest me that I think your statement here is accurate. Perhaps more's the pity.   

[dks]

Different countries have different laws and different constitutions (and interpretations of them)- Unless they join an international convention etc. on a topic/issue whatever is legal or illegal in another country does not matter. People vote for their governments and are thus in general agreement/responsible with/for their current policies.

A common assumption, by many posters, seems to be that MTO is US based or that most posters here live in the US (possibly), like for example Bladeforums.

It is unusual for a dominant forum on tools/knives etc. not to be under US ownership.

Usually we end up with US posters being shocked at UK laws and trying to guide them on what to do. I lived in the UK for many years, and never felt like I was being oppressed or that the laws needed to be drastically changed. This is true, from my experience, in many countries.

[Nix]

Usually we end up with US posters being shocked at UK laws and trying to guide them on what to do. I lived in the UK for many years, and never felt like I was being oppressed or that the laws needed to be drastically changed. This is true, from my experience, in many countries.

dks, it's not clear to me that everyone is currently happy with the firearm (or knife) laws in his or her own country. I hear rumblings. So, I'm not sure I'm buying your picture of domestic bliss with local laws.

Many US citizens are not happy with the current set of firearm laws we have here. It is something we like to fight about. The USA was founded with human rights and the rights of citizenship as it's primary focus. Most other nations were not so established. I suspect this is one reason we like to squabble over rights so much; it's in our national DNA.

I'm sure most people are capable of adapting to their local laws, true. Perhaps over time, that becomes the new normal. Normal often seems 'right'. Here in the US , many of us think the RTKBA is 'right' as well as being a right. You'll have to forgive us our perspectives.

Shocked? I don't know. But when normally sensible countries start restricting the ability of a citizen to carry a multitool with OHO or locking blades.....yes, that does raise an eyebrow here. To us it does indeed seem absurd.  When countries start restricting the import of OHO knives by classifying a 'tool' as a 'weapon', again, it is worrisome. But, yes, you are right, that might just be me being a provincial 'American.'  Arrogant smurfs, aren't we?

[Don Pablo]

Population density is key I think. The more people you have crammed into a small space, the more laws you need to keep them satisfied, partially due to news media making uncommon things seem common.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Usually we end up with US posters being shocked at UK laws and trying to guide them on what to do. I lived in the UK for many years, and never felt like I was being oppressed or that the laws needed to be drastically changed. This is true, from my experience, in many countries.

dks, it's not clear to me that everyone is currently happy with the firearm (or knife) laws in his or her own country. I hear rumblings. So, I'm not sure I'm buying your picture of domestic bliss with local laws.

Many US citizens are not happy with the current set of firearm laws we have here. It is something we like to fight about. The USA was founded with human rights and the rights of citizenship as it's primary focus. Most other nations were not so established. I suspect this is one reason we like to squabble over rights so much; it's in our national DNA.

I'm sure most people are capable of adapting to their local laws, true. Perhaps over time, that becomes the new normal. Normal often seems 'right'. Here in the US , many of us think the RTKBA is 'right' as well as being a right. You'll have to forgive us our perspectives.

Shocked? I don't know. But when normally sensible countries start restricting the ability of a citizen to carry a multitool with OHO or locking blades.....yes, that does raise an eyebrow here. To us it does indeed seem absurd.  When countries start restricting the import of OHO knives by classifying a 'tool' as a 'weapon', again, it is worrisome. But, yes, you are right, that might just be me being a provincial 'American.'  Arrogant smurfs, aren't we?

Let's be careful that this does not become a US VS the World thread.  It has remained civil and sensible so far, and I don't see any reason for that to change.

You are correct about the OHO and locking blade laws, but then, let's not forget that the US has banned Kinder eggs for being too dangerous, and California allows automatic weapons but not double edged blades.  From a certain perspective, any place can seem oppressive, especially when the view you are getting is from the media.  Given that we have a huge international representation here, I would think we should put more stock in the perception of members here than in what we see on TV.

Def

[dks]

Many members have views on many other countries - we just choose not to discuss them here. The same with internal discussions within countries.

)

[Nix]

... let's not forget that the US has banned Kinder eggs for being too dangerous, and California allows automatic weapons but not double edged blades. 

 

California's laws worry me far, far more than those of Japan or Lithuania.    

But, now you mention it, most states permit ownership of automatic weapons (with a Federal Tax stamp). California doesn't....there may be some exceptions possible.

California doesn't actually prohibit the ownership or carry of a double edged knife. It does, like most states, prohibit the concealed carry of a "dirk or dagger". Any such weapon must be worn openly.

Here in Montana, you can carry or conceal whatever you want.....with the exception of a "switchblade". I suspect that the switchblade definition will be challenged at some point (no pun intended). And, of course, here in Montana we can own full-auto firearms.

[Don Pablo]

I don’t think that it’s a coincidence that Cali has more people than Montana.

[Nix]

A lot more people.

[Butch]

I don’t think that it’s a coincidence that Cali has more people than Montana.

That goes all the way back to the goldrush days. Thousands of people were sure they would get rich in California. 

[Don Pablo]

I don’t think that it’s a coincidence that Cali has more people than Montana.

That goes all the way back to the goldrush days. Thousands of people were sure they would get rich in California.

Thanks. 
But what I mean is that: greater population density=more laws. IMHO of course.

[Butch]

I don’t think that it’s a coincidence that Cali has more people than Montana.

That goes all the way back to the goldrush days. Thousands of people were sure they would get rich in California.

Thanks. 
But what I mean is that: greater population density=more laws. IMHO of course.

Agreed, that is why I contend that more than 2 people for 100 square miles constitutes overpopulation.   

[GrandpaPatch]

Just some information about 'firearm multi tools' that some may interesting and others may be looking at it thinking 'I need one of those'. AR-15 multi tool Features: Broken shell extractor, Wire brush for bore cleaning, Ampule for oil for one field lube, Cable to pull the brush through the bore, Carbon scraping tool, Flat blade screwdriver, Feed lip adjustment tool, Gas key cleaning tool, Cotter pin hook, Strike Plate, Front sight adjustment tool, Magazine feed lip gauge.

firearmmultitool_01 by Grandpa Patch, on Flickr

firearmmultitool_02 by Grandpa Patch, on Flickr

[GrandpaPatch]

 
firearmnultitool_03 by Grandpa Patch, on Flickr

This is a excerpt from 19th century 9lb, 100-blade multitool with a pistol
The Smithsonian acquired the knife in 1986 after it was donated by James F. Parker. While alive, Parker was well known in knife collection circles—he owned his own cutlery company and served as the first president of the Knife Collectors Association. Miller says the first time he saw the object he couldn’t believe it was real. “I was particularly impressed with the revolver,” he recalls. “If you bring this knife to a gunfight, you’re OK.”

[Chako]

I have a few AR multitools in my collection...but no AR rifles...go figure.

I do know that the Canadian government is considering a handgun ban. That would kill IPSC in a heart beat...not to mention a big financial loss for folks like me. Waiting to see which way the wind will blow. I do know a lot of wrong assertions on how criminals get their illegal handguns were bandied about whenever Toronto gang members get press time whenever they shoot a firearm.