Hybrid cars- anyone have one?

[Grant Lamontagne]

Very cool video with an extremely cool car.

https://youtu.be/iGfaYX9LuMs?si=rQKupVu7YClP2jW2

Def

[Vidar]

That was one open minded car company. Cool and quirky car for sure!

[powernoodle]

That is indeed a cool car.   

Reminds me of the glorious AMC Pacer.

Google pics link:  https://tinyurl.com/4ey6wj2h

[Grant Lamontagne]

This is a fascinating article about how one person's Rivian not only survived being flooded, but also helped out after Hurricane Helene.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-vs-rivian-r1t-owner-hurricane-helene-survived-convert-2024-10

Def

[Farmer X]

I saw that article, and I'm glad Def bumped this thread...for I have a little more experience with hybrid vehicles.

The Detroit Police Department has hybrid Explorers in their fleet. I am unsure if they were designed from the ground up as hybrids or the hybrid system was adapted to an existing ICE vehicle. Let's just say that getting at the oil filter can be tricky. And I can drop them into drive and move them the short distance from the staging area to the lube rack with the engine off. I haven't decided if that's kinda cool or a little disconcerting.

When doing preventive maintenance on another Explorer (this one being solely ICE), I opened the door to check my position while the transmission was in drive. The vehicle's computer put the transmission in park. That's another thing I'm on the fence about...good safety feature or control being taken away from me?

And yesterday I sold some ceiling tiles that I'd advertised on Craigslist. The gentleman who purchased them has concerns about being able to get the unopened case (20 by 20 by 24 inches) in what he described as his small SUV. That turned out to be a Ford C-Max plug-in hybrid. It had a battery that ate up a good chunk of the cargo area. And he said it didn't do well in the snow. However, we managed to get them loaded, though at considerable loss of rearward visibility.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I am actually well and truly off the hybrid bandwagon.  As far as I am concerned, they suffer the drawbacks of the EV's and the drawbacks of the ICE vehicles coupled together in a vehicle that is designed to try and be both.  That means you need space in the vehicle for all of the ICE components such as fuel tanks, radiators, engine, transmission etc, and space for the battery.  Something just has to give and I am not sure the extra complexity is something I want to deal with.

If I go electric, I don't want to buy gas anymore.  That's pretty well the whole point of going to an EV.

And, if you read any of the reviews, the Ford Explorer hybrids are considered to be some of the worst hybrids on the road anyway, so I'd suggest looking at a few different hybrids before condemning them. 

Interestingly enough, Chevrolet has finally managed to enter the EV market with a pickup truck.  It looks a lot like the old Avalanche, and features the Midgate like the Avalanche, but they are insisting it isn't the new Avalanche.  But, whatever they call it, it has two battery options, one rated for over 600km range and the other rated for over 700km range.

The Cybertruck, Ford Lightning and Rivian models only have about 500km range, so 700kms is HUGE.  It's got me seriously thinking about buying a Chevy truck now instead of the Lightning.

The price is marginally higher, but I like the idea of the extra range.

Dodge is coming out with theirs next year and they claim that it will have 1100kms range.  I started looking into how that was possible, and it turns out that it has a 3.6L Pentastar (same V6 engine that is in my Jeep) in it.  It's not considered a hybrid as none of the power from the engine goes to the wheels, it is just there to act as a generator to recharge the battery.

In theory, I like that extra range, but I just don't have faith in Dodge electrical systems, and I know first hand what a thirsty pig that engine can be.

The Chevy is still the front runner in my mind, at least for now.  I have owned more GM products than anything else, and I was always a GM guy, but I stopped being interested in them a number of years ago when they took all of our tax money to keep operations in Canada (and the US) and used that money to fund moving their operations to Mexico.  Maybe I will have to eat my pride and buy one so I never have to worry about range issues.   

Def

[Farmer X]

I have to wonder what one would have to fork over for that 700 kilometers of range. One thing that gets me is how expensive new trucks have gotten. Some of them are dang near the cost of a house! As long as fossil fuel remains available, $25,000 for a '90s F-250 with the Power Stroke doesn't seem so bad anymore.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Its about $10k more than the Lightning with 500kms range.

And yes, neither of them are cheap, but then neither are ICE trucks these days.  At least the EV's are (more or less) in line with the ICE prices, and the rebates from the government for EV's are pretty convincing as well.

Def

[Farmer X]

I can see that government rebates could reduce the cost by considerable. But rebates or not, I couldn't afford any sort of new truck on my modest city worker's salary.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I can't either, but I also can't afford the gas necessary to do the job.

 

Def

[Don Pablo]

Big pickups aren't really a thing here. I guess one of the reasons being that the car tax is weight dependent, and the other being that most infrastructure and parkings lots are made for normal sized cars.

If I understand correctly, your driving licenses follow the EU standard like ours?
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Here is the EU it's standardised so that someone with an ordinary B license can drive a car with a maximum gross vehicle weight (GVW) of 3,500 kg (close enough to 7,700 lbs in USA-speak). That number is the curb weight plus the maximum weight of passengers and cargo that the vehicle is allowed to carry as said by the manufacturer.
There's an allowance for hitching up a trailer, the trailer needs to be under 750 kg (1600 lbs).
That's the license most people have, if you want to drive something bigger you need a C1 license, which covers light lorries aka two axle commercial trucks, with a GVW of under 7,500 kg (16,000 lbs).
So that rules out many american pick-up trucks, it would not be very profitable to sell them here if they need a C1 license which most people do not have.

But what about the likes of the Ford F-150, which can have a GVW of under 3,500 kg? Well....
Everything in this category is also regulated by c02 emissions and passenger car crash test standards, including pedestrian safety.
So if you look at a Ford F-150, or a Dodge Ram 1500, or the Cybertruck, all big pick-ups like that in America are unable to pass the crash safety standards applied to normal cars, as they're exempt from those standards in the USA so they weren't designed to meet them, to the detriment of everyone who might be hit by one.  .

There are a decent amount of ford rangers and toyota hiluxes here, I assume those were designed with better crash safety to be sold in europe. They're significantly smaller than the F-150......
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Unfortunately a large number of big pick-up trucks (mainly dodge ram 1500's) are being imported in the last few years and growing fast, thanks to a legal loophole intended for special vehicles like fire trucks and ambulances.
There are already a few cybertrucks in the EU. 
Hopefully the wording of this import law is changed soon.
https://ecf.com/news-and-events/news/eu-commission-acknowledges-regulatory-flaws-large-pick-truck-imports-following

[Grant Lamontagne]

The Ranger was always an interesting story.  Since Ford owns Mazda (or at least used to, I'm not sure if they still do) the Ranger was always produced in conjunction with Mazda's B2200 pickup.  Other than emblems and maybe some trim, they were the exact same truck, and the idea was that the Ranger variant was produced for the US market and the B2200 was sold everywhere else.

I assume that because of that reason the Ranger meets the EU standards (and everyone else's) since it is intended to be offered in many different markets.

Interestingly enough, the Ranger was discontinued in NA in 2012 and reintroduced in 2019 (I think?) but the Ranger was still available elsewhere.

Def

[Don Pablo]

By the way this is the EV I'm currently most excited about.


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Super small cheap but capable cars need more love, especially in the EV space where it's mostly SUVs and pick-ups So this is long overdue. The starting price for the 40 kWh battery version is supposed to be €24,000 in France, all taxes and rebates included. Looking forward to it making its way here  I don't plan on buying a new one, but if in a year or two I see one on the used car market I'll be extremely tempted to buy. 

The Tesla self-driving taxi and robots event a few weeks ago was disappointing to me, because, well, look at this!

Show content

It's a small three door coupe! Aiming for $30,000! And they're wasting it being a self-driving taxi with no manual controls. 
Reminds me of a Honda Prelude. It would be amazing to have a zippy three door EV coupe at what counts as "cheap" car pricing today. 

[Vidar]

If I understand correctly, your driving licenses follow the EU standard like ours?
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Yes, that was coordinated in 1992 I believe. And just like that I lost the right to drive what is now BE, C1E and D1E. Thanks EU!  For some reason I can still drive machines with a constructive speed up to 40km/h of up to 25 tons with 25 tons hanger. Unless they have taken that too while I wasn't looking!

We do have a few big US trucks on the road here so they are approved it seems. (And thus in EU too I assume). Maybe some adapted version. I believe the main reason is twofold - too big to be popular here, and price/ taxes. (Up until mid 90s or so there were more US cars on the roads here. Then the US decided to put a heavy tax on Norwegian salmon. A bit later Norway made some bespoke environmental regulations that peculiarly only hit US cars. Pure coincidence I'm sure...)   

[powernoodle]

So if you look at a Ford F-150, or a Dodge Ram 1500, or the Cybertruck, all big pick-ups like that in America are unable to pass the crash safety standards applied to normal cars, as they're exempt from those standards in the USA

This is not true.  See https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/subtitle-B/chapter-V/part-571/subpart-B/section-571.208 . 

"Until 1999, pickup trucks were exempt from federal safety regulations. Many pickups did not have anti-lock brakes, airbags, or other important safety features found in sedans. The good news is that after 1999, pickups became subject to the same federal safety standards as cars, including side-impact crash standards and dual airbags."  https://tinyurl.com/ymy4tc8w

Its always possible that I am wrong.  If so, I am happy to become un-wrong.   

[Don Pablo]

We do have a few big US trucks on the road here so they are approved it seems. (And thus in EU too I assume). Maybe some adapted version.   

Could they all be imported under the stipulation mentioned previously?
https://ecf.com/news-and-events/news/eu-commission-acknowledges-regulatory-flaws-large-pick-truck-imports-following
That might be a EU-only thing, I'm not sure. But it appears to be the main mechanism by which large trucks are being introduced into the EU.

This is not true.  See https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/subtitle-B/chapter-V/part-571/subpart-B/section-571.208 . 

"Until 1999, pickup trucks were exempt from federal safety regulations. Many pickups did not have anti-lock brakes, airbags, or other important safety features found in sedans. The good news is that after 1999, pickups became subject to the same federal safety standards as cars, including side-impact crash standards and dual airbags."  https://tinyurl.com/ymy4tc8w

Its always possible that I am wrong.  If so, I am happy to become un-wrong.   

I'm sure they have airbags and crumple zones for protecting the occupants.
But some of the EU regulations and tests deal with how pedestrians would be injured when hit by the vehicle. That's more what I was talking about. Is there anything about that in the USA? 
https://www.euroncap.com/en/car-safety/the-ratings-explained/vulnerable-road-user-vru-protection/

Edit: here, for example is the test for the 2022 Ranger.
https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/ford/ranger/48750
The lowest score is in regards to pedestrian protection, particularly in pelvis and leg impacts. Head impacts received a less bad rating, but the bigger a car gets the more likely such scores will decrease even more.

[Vidar]

Could they all be imported under the stipulation mentioned previously?

I have no idea. But "all" is more like "a few" so they might even be adapted somewhat for all I know. What I do know is that they should be relatively expensive - a lot of the Norwegian car purchase tax is directly connected to vehicle weight. (With various taxes for electric vehicles being exempt or heavily reduced).

As for pedestrians our car has an airbag under the bonnet. So if hit the bonnet will send them flying over the roof instead of into or through the front shield. I guess that is an improvement. It does sound like an improvement if hitting elk or the like.

[Farmer X]

I'm not aware of any vehicle vs. pedestrian safety standards in the States. However, I do remember being a bit excited that the Ford Ranger was coming back. It's bad enough that they only come with gasoline engines, extended or crew cabs, and automatic transmissions. Being more comparable in size to a '90s F-150 than a '90s Ranger is even worse.

[nate j]

I’m not sure what the numbers are elsewhere in the world, but in the US…

More than 60% of motor vehicle fatalities are occupants of passenger vehicles.

Less than 20% of fatalities are pedestrians struck by vehicles.

So a focus on the former rather than the latter makes sense to me.

https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/yearly-snapshot

[Vidar]

So a focus on the former rather than the latter makes sense to me.

https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/yearly-snapshot

I'm not sure that is a zero sum game. One might beneficially works toward and set requirements for both? And I'm not sure distribution between these is a good measure to start with. Rather than focusing on distribution for a given number of accidents, the focus should be on reducing the number of fatal accidents as such? And then it might turn out it is easier to further reduce the 20% pedestrian numbers than reducing the 60% occupant numbers. Or the other way around - either way I think one should take the easy wins first whereever they are.

I would also like to see more work on the road planning side of the subject. Too many roads have unnecessary high risk parts that are accident prone.

[Don Pablo]

By the way this is the EV I'm currently most excited about.


  [ Quoting of attachment images from other messages is not allowed ]  
Super small cheap but capable cars need more love, especially in the EV space where it's mostly SUVs and pick-ups So this is long overdue. The starting price for the 40 kWh battery version is supposed to be €24,000 in France, all taxes and rebates included. Looking forward to it making its way here  I don't plan on buying a new one, but if in a year or two I see one on the used car market I'll be extremely tempted to buy. 

The Tesla self-driving taxi and robots event a few weeks ago was disappointing to me, because, well, look at this!

Show content

It's a small three door coupe! Aiming for $30,000! And they're wasting it being a self-driving taxi with no manual controls. 
Reminds me of a Honda Prelude. It would be amazing to have a zippy three door EV coupe at what counts as "cheap" car pricing today. 

There will be a local EV motor show on the 10th of november, apparently. Tickets are now booked, the Renault 5 EV will be one of the 80 models from 28 manufacturers being showcased.

For some reason Tesla will bring a cybertruck to the show. I don't know if it's even possible for them to directly sell such things in the EU market, so that's a slightly odd decision.

EVs, e-bikes, some opportunities for test drives of selected products, upcoming AC and fast charge stations, and a scalextric track. The makings of an interesting sunday outing.

[Vidar]

One of the neighboors have one of these which should about the same class? (Although the neightboor got the even smaller version without the extra door). It is quite distinct, small and nimble. I imagine it makes for easy city driving and parking in tight spaces.

[Don Pablo]

Lol at what some people call a "suicide door", it just makes me think "fancy car" (rolls royce).
Anyway, I want to have a sitdown in it.
The disadvantage seems to be that it's more expensive than the projected cost of the renault 5, and it's already 3 years old (would be overdue for a refresh by the time I'm in the market).... But if I see an used one for sale at the right price in the near future.... hmmmm

[Vidar]

I have no idea of the price, but it is compact and nimble. I guess you pay extra for the X factor whatever that is.

First time I saw one I thought it was a stylish version of one of those tiny moped cars.

[Don Pablo]

It's definitely a real car. 300 km of WLTP range with the 42 kWh battery, it's actually impressive that they fit that in there.. Top speed 140 km/h, 0-100 is 9 seconds.

now THIS is a stylish moped It's officially classed as a quadricycle and has a version with no doors I think. Top speed is 45 km/h
https://www.citroen.co.uk/ami

[Vidar]

now THIS is a stylish moped It's officially classed as a quadricycle and has a version with no doors I think. Top speed is 45 km/h
https://www.citroen.co.uk/ami

I have seen one of those. They are quircky cute. Iconic might be a stretch but give it 50 years and you might have a rare veteran?

To save money they put the same door on both sides - thus they open opposite ways. Given the symmetrical shape I can imagine that I on occasion would try to jump the wrong way into the passenger seat to drive... 

[Grant Lamontagne]

Playing with the math again....

I decided to compare a bunch of different EV's, and naturally this developed into a spreadsheet, because let's face it, you can't have fun without a spreadsheet!   

Basically I took the estimated range of each vehicle, the capacity of each battery and the current cost of electricity (currently $.17/KWh here) and worked out the estimated cost per kilometer for each vehicle.  Yes, I know these are estimated, and under perfect factory conditions which don't actually exist in the world today.... but as the ICE vehicles have the same flaw, it's a good starting point.

Here's what I found:

Ford Mustang Mach E- Depending on which battery you get, it is between three and three and a half cents per kilometer, with the (marginally) larger battery costing more.  And, given that (in Canada) the larger battery is about an $8k addon for less than a hundred extra kilometers of range, probably not worth it.  That was a bit of a surprise if I'm being honest.  Over all, to charge from 0-100 percent (not that you'd ever drive it to zero) is $12.24- $16.32, again, depending on battery size.

Ford F-150 Lightning- There are two different battery sizes, and each comes in at about 4.3 cents per kilometer to operate.   Given that these are much larger batteries, they are a bit more expensive to go from 0-100 percent, at $16.66 to $22.27.  Personally I would opt for the larger battery in this, as the range changes from an estimated 386kms with the small one to 515kms with the bigger one.

Tesla Model Y- The gold standard for a reason, this is by far the cheapest EV to operate, which makes sense as Tesla has been doing it longer than anyone else.  At 2.4 cents per kilometer, it is more than half a cent cheaper than the Mustang Mach E at it's best.  0-100 percent charge also costs a whopping $12.75 and will give you (an estimated) 542kms of range.  Not bad when you consider that is marginally more than the cost of a Big Mac Combo in Canada.

Chevrolet Sonoma EV- This one is a bit more complex as there are three battery versions, and the per kilometer cost goes between 3.3 cents from the small battery to 4.7 cents for the medium battery and 4.6 cents for the giant battery- which is by far the biggest one attached to any EV currently available to the public.  This gives the various models anywhere between 679kms and 792kms depending on which you choose.  All of them seem pretty darned good to me, as these are the highest ranges available of any EV I am aware of, save the Aptera, which hasn't hit production yet.  Also, the Aptera would probably fit in the bed of the Sonoma.  If I had to choose, I'd probably wait till the GMC version comes out as I think it has a nicer grille.  Oh yeah, and the Sonoma is the most expensive to charge, since it has the biggest battery, and 0-100 will run you $22.27 in the standard battery or up to $36.33 for the giant ass one.

VW ID4- I love VW, and their specs are not bad-  the AWD version will cost three cents per kilometer and the rear wheel drive will cost 3.2.  That seems a bit backwards, but the AWD version has a slightly bigger and more efficient battery, but even so, 0-100 charging will cost $10.54 for the RWD and $13.94 for the AWD version.  Not bad specs, but very middle of the road- still, it's a good sized SUV and is pretty sharp looking too.

Hyundai Kona- This one takes second place for cost per kilometer at 2.6 cents, and costs a whopping $11.02 to charge from 0-100 percent.  Given it's range, relatively low cost of purchase and the second lowest operating cost behind the Tesla, I'd say this would be a serious contender for someone on a budget.  And, at 420kms per charge, it's not cutting corners either.

Nissan Leaf/ Leaf Plus- I have no idea why someone would buy the standard Leaf nowadays.  Sure it's inexpensive, but not nearly as cheap as it should be with only a 240km range.  I'd definitely opt for the Leaf Plus, which kicks it up to the (barely) adequate 364km range.  It is the third cheapest though, at 2.8 and 2.9 cents per kilometer and also comes in at either $6.80 or $10.54 to completely charge.  If you are only going very short distances, and not that often, this could be the car for you, but I'd still opt for the Plus version, just in case.

Now that we got those wussy electric cars out of the way, let's look at some real, manly ICE costs for comparison.   

GMC Sierra 5.8L V8- This is the classic V8 pickup truck that will sprout hair on your chest if you are within 100 feet of it.  They don't come any manlier, tougher or more iconic in the truck world than this.... but that mechanical testosterone will cost you- 25.7 cents per kilometer to be exact, or 21 cents per kilometer more than the EV version.  And, filling the 91L tank will run you $169.26 at today's gas price (at least here in NS, at $1.86/L), which is a mere $132.93 more than the EV version.  At optimum fuel economy, this manly beast will carry you a respectable 658 kilometers though.

GMC Sierra 2.7L 4 Cylinder- I don't know how a 4 cylinder full size pickup exists, but if you did want to opt for this over the V8 (I mean, who is checking, right?) your cost per KM drops to 21.9 cents, although as it has the same tank, it still costs $169.26 to feed.  But, that kicks your available range up to 773kms, which is nothing to sneeze at.

Buick Encore- I know odd choice to end off with, but a good friend of mine has one so I did the math on it too, just for the fun of it.  His is a 2017 model, and front wheel drive, so those are the specs I did up.  No surprise it is WAY cheaper than the Sierra at 14.6 cents per kilometer and a complete fill up costs $98.58.

I agree that I did not cover the same range of ICE vehicles as I did EV's, but I have to say, the results are astounding.  A relatively compact ICE vehicle costs three times as much to feed as the biggest, hungriest EV on the market, and almost 15 times that of the cheapest and smallest.

For my buddy, it doesn't make sense to switch though, as his car is solid and in decent shape.  Plus, he drives about 34kms/day to and from work (17kms each way) and so his fuel cost (if he lived here, which he doesn't, he lives where gas is much cheaper) for getting to and from work is about $1290.64.  If he switched to a Mustang or ID 4 (those are the ones he is most interested in) then his cost drops to $265.20, or just over a thousand dollars per year.  Making a $700/mth payment just isn't worth it when you already have a solid car.

For me though, my Jeep costs me a little more.  I estimate at my current job site I am doing about 75kms/day, and the best I can hope out of my Jeep is a whopping 14L/100kms.  I go through just over a tank a week, and with an 80L tank that works out to 148.80 for each fill up.  Multiply that by 52 weeks and I am $7737.60/year, and that's not even counting how much fuel I have to burn in the winter to keep from freezing to death.   

Given the same mileage, the Mustang would cost me somewhere around $585 for the same period, saving me over $7k/year.

So, my fuel costs alone could justify almost the entire payment on a new EV, and then there's the bonus of having a brand new vehicle as well.  My Jeep has been laid up most of the month with a transmission issue (hopefully I will have it back today, and that it won't cost too much) but even so, I have spent about $700 on rental cars to keep going to work, and I even had to abscond with Megan's car for a week.   

I am seriously considering the Mustang right now.  I would rather the F-150 or the Sonoma as I really do need a truck, but at about $25k cheaper, the Mustang is very appealing, even if it means every time I get out with it I have to have the Mustang conversation with everyone.

"Yes, I know it's not really a Mustang.  No, I have no idea why they called it that.  I agree, Mustangs don't have four doors.  Or are SUV's.  Or are electric.  I get it, Mustangs are muscle cars, not family cars.  Yes, they should have called it something else.  I agree it was a mistake to call it a Mustang." and so one and so on and so on.... 

Even so, it's still a very nice vehicle in it's own right if you can get past the name plate.  And how long has it been since the Mustang was the affordable option?   

Oh yeah, and the Mach E has a very respectable 0-60 time of 5.8 seconds with the standard battery, all the way down to 3.3 seconds for the high performance version.  A V8 Mustang will do it in 3.9 seconds, but the people in the back seat won't be nearly as comfortable as they would be in the Mach E!

 

Def

[Vidar]

https://www.motor.no/bil/her-er-resultatene-fra-rekkeviddetesten-vinteren-2024/264144

(Use browser english translate?)

A real life test of range in winter with a range of 2024 models from various manufacturers driven at the until they stop at the same route - and thus same conditions. None achieved the official range, and some missed significantly. To be fair this particular route ended uphill so somewhat less is too be expected.

Edit: The 2021 test include Mach-E and Tesla model 3 (which is also in the 2024 so you can compare towards the others in that one too). https://www.motor.no/elbil/motors-rekkeviddetest-av-elbiler-vinter-2021/193624

[Grant Lamontagne]

Fascinating test.  Winter performance has been my biggest concern.  As 100% of my work is in the field I need a place to go to keep from freezing to death in the winter, and I always wondered how that would affect battery life- both how the cold temperature affects the battery (reduced capacity) and running a heater to keep me comfortable.

Ford has introduced heat pumps for the 2024 model year which should be very effective at keeping the heat in the passenger compartment, and also draw very little energy.  I assume most EV Manufacturers are doing this as well.  Compared to moving the vehicle, running a small heat pump is such a small value that I expect to lose no more than a few kilometers of range, while running an ICE to try and survive off it's waste heat is remarkably inefficient.

As for the battery temperature it uses a bit of it's own energy to keep itself warm enough not to lose a large amount of energy due to the cold.  And, like the heat pump, it (allegedly) uses very little energy.

At least that is what is published- it is very interesting to see real world testing.

But the bottom line is, even if the EV's are 1/10th of the efficiency they promise, they are still miles ahead of an internal combustion engine.

Def

[powernoodle]

My hybrid Sienna loses about 2 mpg (maybe 34 > 32 combined) in very cold weather due to the drive battery being a little less efficient.  The battery is under the driver's seat, though, so when the cabin is warm I'm guessing the outside temp would be a little less of a factor.