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Cryogenic metals ???

us Offline Butch

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Cryogenic metals ???
on: November 12, 2018, 08:45:35 PM
In the lofty world of benchrest target shooting cryogenicly treated barrels have been the goto for several years. They claim it relives stresses in the metal.
Now Buck has started treating blades for the new 110 & 112 slim cryogenicaly. They are claiming it makes the blade hold an edge longer??????????????????
Comments anyone?
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no Offline Steinar

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Re: Cryogenic metals ???
Reply #1 on: November 12, 2018, 09:30:21 PM
It's basically just cool sounding. High alloy stainless steels (Elmax, RWL-34, that kind of stuff) needs very low temperatures to remove the last austenite, but -85 °C  is sufficient. Using liquid nitrogen and going down to -190 °C is perfectly fine, but does not bring any extra advantages either.


us Offline Butch

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Re: Cryogenic metals ???
Reply #2 on: November 12, 2018, 09:37:16 PM
I can understand the stress relief in barrels, but I don't see why it would make a blade hold an edge longer. I suspect sales gimmick ............ :ahhh :ahhh :facepalm:
Shoot low sheriff, they're riddin' shetlands
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I would like to apologise to anyone I have not offended. Please be patient, I will get to you shortly.
Just a small personal observation.  ...........I would not be at all surprised that when God created the Earth & the heavens, that the SwissChamp was the tool he used. .............. :hatsoff:


no Offline Steinar

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Re: Cryogenic metals ???
Reply #3 on: November 12, 2018, 09:47:17 PM
I'm not a metallurgist, but with my limited knowledge, I know of no technical reason for doing cryogenic cooling of blade steels, so... Yeah, I'm leaning towards marketing BS as well.


us Offline Dean51

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Re: Cryogenic metals ???
Reply #4 on: November 13, 2018, 02:28:44 AM
In the lofty world of benchrest target shooting cryogenicly treated barrels have been the goto for several years. They claim it relives stresses in the metal.
Now Buck has started treating blades for the new 110 & 112 slim cryogenicaly. They are claiming it makes the blade hold an edge longer??????????????????
Comments anyone?

Cryogenic treatment was used in the military in WW2 so it's not new or advertising hype. If a company just wanted hype they could call their steel surgical unobtainium.
Short quote from Buck. "Heat treating is the process used to impart special qualities to metals and alloys (hardness, strength, ductility, etc.). When heat and subsequent cooling are applied to metals in their solid state, the physical and structural properties (but not the chemical composition) of these metals are changed."

My experience with 420HC is a blade might go from cutting 40 plus feet of cardboard to 60 feet of cardboard before reaching the same level no dullness.
There are steels that can cut 10 times that much cardboard so a 15% increase over that would be a lot of cutting. 

Here's an article on it. https://blademag.com/blog/frozen-sharp-cryogenically-treated-blades


cy Offline dks

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Re: Cryogenic metals ???
Reply #5 on: November 13, 2018, 03:40:42 AM
The buck statement describes the annealing of steel, performed by all. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy)

There is a balance to be struck between making the edge/blade hard and  making it too brittle
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us Offline Butch

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Re: Cryogenic metals ???
Reply #6 on: November 13, 2018, 06:14:36 AM
T Y for the links.Have to leave right now but will read them as soon as I get the chance.
Shoot low sheriff, they're riddin' shetlands
SAKMC unit number BR549
137% Redneck
I would like to apologise to anyone I have not offended. Please be patient, I will get to you shortly.
Just a small personal observation.  ...........I would not be at all surprised that when God created the Earth & the heavens, that the SwissChamp was the tool he used. .............. :hatsoff:


us Offline Aloha

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Re: Cryogenic metals ???
Reply #7 on: November 13, 2018, 06:23:46 AM
I've read and watch some really informative info on why certain steels can benefit from cryogenic treatment.  While I am nowhere near as knowledgeable as most in metalurgy Jay Fisher certainly is. 
https://jayfisher.com/Heat_Treating_Cryogenic_Processing_of_Knife_Blade_Steels.htm
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pt Offline pfrsantos

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Re: Cryogenic metals ???
Reply #8 on: November 13, 2018, 12:03:06 PM
Well, if that treatment doesn't increase the quality of the metal, at least you still get a cool blade...

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nz Offline zoidberg

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Re: Cryogenic metals ???
Reply #9 on: November 13, 2018, 12:30:38 PM
Well, if that treatment doesn't increase the quality of the metal, at least you still get a cool blade...

 :whistle:

Waa waarr.   :D


us Offline Butch

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Re: Cryogenic metals ???
Reply #10 on: November 13, 2018, 01:55:22 PM
I was aware of the annealing process, but could not understand any benefit coming from just freezing the holy hindend off of a blade. Apparently there is great benfit from if. See even an old codger like me can learn something new. Thanks for the info fellas. ........... :cheers:
Shoot low sheriff, they're riddin' shetlands
SAKMC unit number BR549
137% Redneck
I would like to apologise to anyone I have not offended. Please be patient, I will get to you shortly.
Just a small personal observation.  ...........I would not be at all surprised that when God created the Earth & the heavens, that the SwissChamp was the tool he used. .............. :hatsoff:


es Offline ThePeacent

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Re: Cryogenic metals ???
Reply #11 on: November 13, 2018, 05:03:53 PM
from a metallurgist who speSmurfpillses in knife steels (Larrin, owner and creator of knifesteelnerds):

"The primary effect of cryogenic processing is to reduce retained austenite which gives you an increase in strength and hardness. That usually also reduces toughness though not always: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/06/04/ ... ar-z-wear/

There is also scientific literature suggesting there is an increase in wear resistance due to increased carbide precipitation (I can't go into that in any detail without a whole article on it). In the 154CM CATRA article there was no benefit from cryo outside of hardness: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/06/18/ ... retention/

That doesn't necessarily mean that there is never a benefit for edge retention with cryo but contradicts some of the wild reports like 500% increase in wear resistance with cryo."
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ie Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Cryogenic metals ???
Reply #12 on: November 13, 2018, 05:07:17 PM
from a metallurgist who speSmurfpillses in knife steels (Larrin, owner and creator of knifesteelnerds):

"The primary effect of cryogenic processing is to reduce retained austenite which gives you an increase in strength and hardness. That usually also reduces toughness though not always: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/06/04/ ... ar-z-wear/

There is also scientific literature suggesting there is an increase in wear resistance due to increased carbide precipitation (I can't go into that in any detail without a whole article on it). In the 154CM CATRA article there was no benefit from cryo outside of hardness: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/06/18/ ... retention/

That doesn't necessarily mean that there is never a benefit for edge retention with cryo but contradicts some of the wild reports like 500% increase in wear resistance with cryo."
I thought that you could always dismiss claims like that. :D
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