Hollow scales?

cbl51 · **on:** March 03, 2019, 04:08:48 PM

When did Victorinox move from making the cellidor handle scales a solid slab of material, to a scale with large hollow areas in them? It seems to me that the newer scales are more 'fragile' than the old scales of maybe 20 years or more ago. This was being discussed on another forum, and the question of date came up.

It seemed to me that it was I the early 2000's.

SirVicaLot · **Reply #1 on:** March 03, 2019, 05:51:18 PM

Not sure about the scales, but i just realized that 2000 is almost 20 years ago...

That does not seem right

kamakiri · **Reply #2 on:** March 04, 2019, 01:06:22 AM

Sounds about right, but I think maybe just before. The first translucent ones I know of from '99 are hollow in front and solid 'plus' in the back. Some are pre-caplifter 'locking' nub, so I think the '99 date holds for that back scale. And I suspect those were used into or past '00 since there are solid plus back scales also found with the nub. I don't know how to read the date on those since a lot of them have a date wheel with no numbers on it. Many of the hollow back non-plus I have are dated '04, so I'm pretty sure all were hollow by then.

I haven't put much thought or investigation into the matter.

I do know that the '93 Marlboro that I last took apart had 'solid' scales with the perimeter lip...so there are several different levels of evolution for the 'solid' versions too.

Hope that helps.

McStitchy · **Reply #3 on:** March 04, 2019, 01:49:01 AM

... just adding an example of different level of evolutions

So I take it that around '99 they changed to the bike scales then. Thanks Kamakiri

kamakiri · **Reply #4 on:** March 04, 2019, 02:26:44 AM

Quote from: MTMatt on March 04, 2019, 01:49:01 AM

... just adding an example of different level of evolutions

So I take it that around '99 they changed to the bike scales then. Thanks Kamakiri

Nice examples, Matt! I wish they all had an easy to understand date coding system. I like your 82 marked ones from your Climber/Traveller, and I've seen 92 cast in some Explorer scales of mid '90s vintage. EDIT: And those marked 92 Front Scales were already hollow.

I did notice that the back date wheel in the '04 scaled knives I had lying around start the wheel at '02. Perhaps that's when the back scales all went hollow.

McStitchy · **Reply #5 on:** March 04, 2019, 07:22:02 AM

Thanks Grant

I did open a new thread once to find out about this.

https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,77049.msg1685300.html#msg1685300

Seems we're finally getting to it

So far (estimated) we could say then:

1992-1999 hollow front scales
2002-2004 hollow front & back scales

Does that sound right?

Barry Rowland · **Reply #6 on:** March 04, 2019, 02:25:34 PM

I miss the solid scales. They gave the knife a much better feel IMO.

magentus · **Reply #7 on:** March 04, 2019, 02:27:02 PM

Quote from: Barry Rowland on March 04, 2019, 02:25:34 PM

I miss the solid scales. They gave the knife a much better feel IMO.

FolderBeholder · **Reply #8 on:** March 04, 2019, 03:06:35 PM

Not sure if this is helpful, but Victorinox replaced the scales on my SwissChamp that has the clock. Here are the scales they removed and returned to me.

Here are a set of scales from 1999. I believe that is the year as the front of the scale has initials and 1999 embossed in them.

Scales from a Scientist.

Aloha · **Reply #9 on:** March 04, 2019, 03:19:18 PM

Always so much to learn here. Thanks all

kamakiri · **Reply #10 on:** March 04, 2019, 08:48:54 PM

Quote from: FolderBeholder on March 04, 2019, 03:06:35 PM

Not sure if this is helpful, but Victorinox replaced the scales on my SwissChamp that has the clock. Here are the scales they removed and returned to me.
(Image removed from quote.)

Here are a set of scales from 1999. I believe that is the year as the front of the scale has initials and 1999 embossed in them.
(Image removed from quote.)

Scales from a Scientist.
(Image removed from quote.)

Nice stuff, FB! Looks like the Supertimer back is showing a 4 on the wheel. I'm guessing that's '94 not '04...but not 100% sure. The casting and the date wheel looks a lot like what is on my '99 and '00 solid translucent scales.

I'm reading the back wheel on this as '01:

I don't see the pointer for the front wheel. I only see the 92 and 002

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I'm also guessing that the 'big' circled numbers are for the month...just a guess though. I haven't seen any 11 or 12 yet.

I've found some from the '80s (I think) that have hand scribed marks for the year wheel. I suspect 80's because the mark is also on black scales with one marked '3' and '83 certainly is in the range of solid, black scale production.

kamakiri · **Reply #11 on:** March 04, 2019, 09:33:49 PM

Quote from: MTMatt on March 04, 2019, 07:22:02 AM

Thanks Grant
I did open a new thread once to find out about this.

https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,77049.msg1685300.html#msg1685300

Seems we're finally getting to it

So far (estimated) we could say then:

1992-1999 hollow front scales
2002-2004 hollow front & back scales

Does that sound right?

I think that sounds right ....for now. I might be able to tighten up the dates. Hopefully without needing to pull anything apart!

Sad that I have what I need to figure this all out, but at the expense of losing the original attachment. I'm pretty good at removing scales so they can be reattached well, but it takes a bit of time (and heat) to do. Especially and progressively more difficult as scales get older.

Thanks for that link!

I was looking for a thread like that while I was still lurking... didn't get the hit with my searches 'scale(s)' pl. and 'history' weren't used! Great info there too.

McStitchy · **Reply #12 on:** March 04, 2019, 10:04:57 PM

Cheers Grant.... I wouldn't take precious SAKs apart to get the info though

kamakiri · **Reply #13 on:** March 05, 2019, 05:07:27 AM

Well, nothing precious just yet!

I did have to take a peek under the 'Troublemaker' Marlboro printed scale the c. '93 turns out to be '95:

Quote from: kamakiri on March 04, 2019, 08:48:54 PM

I've found some from the '80s (I think) that have hand scribed marks for the year wheel. I suspect 80's because the mark is also on black scales with one marked '3' and '83 certainly is in the range of solid, black scale production.

^ That was wrong. I think these have to be from the '90s:

I have wheels of this style with a 2 mark:

And that could be '92 or '02. I have a tendency to think the ones with all 10 (0-9) digits marked on the wheel are added later.

Examples with only the 1,4,5 & 8 are likely earlier, so my guess is this is from '93:

Through '99:

And found a red hollow '04 toothpick only (not plus):

Note that this is not the same as the '04 translucent (not plus) scales that have the (04) moulded type mark on the wheel. So there are likely separate molds for making different plastic types.

No pictures, but I do have an Onyx Compact - No Pen with '99 marks both front and back.

It's surprising how many different locations and types of marks there have been just to mark the year.

So far I can confirm hollow front scales from '95+ and still suspect as early as '92. Back scales hollow from '99 in translucent no pen but may be earlier for red cellidor. Plus/pen translucent back scales remain solid at least into '00. Hollow by '04 and may be '02 by the wheel marks or possibly '01 for the lack of solid examples with that mark.

We need more examples from others...

kamakiri · **Reply #14 on:** March 05, 2019, 06:03:22 AM

Quote from: kamakiri on March 04, 2019, 08:48:54 PM

I'm reading the back wheel on this as '01:
(Image removed from quote.)
I don't see the pointer for the front wheel. I only see the 92 and 002

Gotta correct myself again. Looks like both scales do say '99 on the wheels. I read the back scale backwards and saw it as a '1' when it is clearly a mark for '9'.

McStitchy · **Reply #15 on:** March 05, 2019, 07:27:09 AM

That's great info!

Just how are you going by deciphering the wheels and what's your theorie about the other numbering for any dating please?

ddogu · **Reply #16 on:** March 05, 2019, 09:27:15 AM

Quote from: SirVicaLot on March 03, 2019, 05:51:18 PM

Not sure about the scales, but i just realized that 2000 is almost 20 years ago... That does not seem right

You are responsible of my depressed mood now!

kamakiri · **Reply #17 on:** March 05, 2019, 04:32:06 PM

Quote from: MTMatt on March 05, 2019, 07:27:09 AM

That's great info!
Just how are you going by deciphering the wheels and what's your theorie about the other numbering for any dating please?

Good question, I should have explained better. I've marked the wheel on the scale from your '91 Champ and attached it. They put a minimal amount of marks on it to figure out the direction of the rotation. I filled in the rest and circled the pointer at '1'.

The working theory for those circled numbers are that they're for the production month. But that is really just a guess for now. It could be anything like a production line, stamping machine, mold iteration...I'm certainly open to other ideas. There are also other numbers that I have no real guess what they're for, but they mean something...like the roman numerals which I think serve a different function. Especially those marked I or II and there's the 002 and 003 004 etc. which I think are for something else entirely found on most of the hollow fronts. Those two might be related.

kamakiri · **Reply #18 on:** March 05, 2019, 05:28:31 PM

Boy, I'm not as think as I smart I am...

I think the roman numerals just indicate I for the 'back' and II for the 'front' scale.

I think this might have been more of an issue before most or all scales had the corkscrew/phillips notch. A single layer solo or duo pair of scales would require thinking on the production line to identify the front and back. These two marks would prevent confusion on the older pressed/stamped scales. Might be why they aren't always present on newer knives.

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One more thing I notice when looking at a hollow (92) front scale year marked '3'...is that a '93 wouldn't have 'VICTORINOX' moulded into the tweezer slot, and an '03 would. The main blade in the project box was still 2.4mm wide, so that sounds right for it to be an '03. There would be no need for that moulding until the scales were translucent starting in '99.

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The big circled numbers could also be a batch or control number. I have found some (11) marks and into the teens (15),(16) for newer hollow scales, so I don't think it's for the month. Perhaps it used to be, but seems unlikely now.