Gaming part 2..video cards and RAM

[Anthony]

Instead of getting a console system I'm looking into upgrading my current desktop PC with a better video card and some more RAM.

The RAM installation looks pretty straightfoward, but the video card brings up questions.

Some sites say it "easy, it just clicks in!" and that's it..other sites mention new power supplies and new monitors!

Until I open up this tower and see exactly what I've got to work with (PCI or AGP ports, aux power cables, etc) I really don't know what I'm getting into.  So in general, has anyone here done a similar upgrade to their PC and how did it go?  I'm not exactly sure how old this Dell E510 is..maybe 5 years max...I'm hoping to rejuvinate it to the point where I can play some current games...

[jzmtl]

Monitor, if you are happy with yours there's no reason to upgrade.

Power supply, yes if necessary, the card documentation will tell you what's the minimum, or you'll have random crashes all over (don't ask me how I know lol). Although look to see if your mother board and CPU is up to the task or they would be the bottleneck even if you buy the most powerful video card.

Afraid I can't offer anything more than that, haven't kept with computer technology for the past few years.

[Whoey]

Chances are a 5 year old PC probably has an AGP slot, not the newer PCI Express (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pci_express). The Good News: they sell some of the newer graphics cards in AGP format as well, however slightly more expensive than the PCI Express versions due to the much lower demand for such cards. Some new cards may require additional power, this is true. This is usually noted somewhere on the box. If not checking online for reviews etc will help. My current card requires no extra power connections, it's a PCI express Nvidia Geforce 7600GS. I assume your monitor is a regular VGA connector, and not the new DVI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface)... most cards have an adapter, so this is not really an issue (My video card came with a DVI to VGA adapter in case you only have a VGA screen). My monitor has both DVI and the old VGA connections, and my card has two DVI outputs for two screens.

As for ram, be sure to check the mainboard specs, my mainboard for example takes both DDR (4 slots) and DDR2 (2 slots). However it only accepts 2Gb max of DDR2, or 4gb max of DDR... (currently has 2Gb of DDR2) and I cannot mix both types... 2Gb is more than enough for me in XP or linux, however lately I find I wish I had a little more as I tend to run graphics programs in an XP virtual machine under linux.

I've been itching to upgrade here as well, I've been eye balling a dual or quad core Intel, and at least 4Gb of ram, along with a new video card. I'm a bit worried as there seems to some issues with the new Nvidia chips, and I despise ATI. I could keep my old card as it does quite well for my needs, however my old core will migrate to the wife's machine when I upgrade and I don't have any other PCI express videocards...

Well hope some of this is useful to you.

[Splat]

I have a high-end Asus mobo, Corsair ram, Sata drives, 550W psu, but my 6600GT agp video card died on me months ago. When I recently looked around for a replacement I couldn't believe how expensive agp cards are now, not to mention getting scarce. Now I'm using my onboard video and though it sucks I won't upgrade further on this machine. My next PC will be cutting-edge technology at the time of purchase.

I agree with what Whoey wrote. If your PC does what you need it do it, and fast enough for you to do that work/task/game, then there's no real need to upgrade.

[Anthony]

If your PC does what you need it do it, and fast enough for you to do that work/task/game, then there's no real need to upgrade.

That's the thing...it DOESN'T do what I want it to do   I'd like to get into some current games and my machine now can't hack it. 

My machine is an 05...so it's not as old as I thought, so that's good.

[DaveK]

Do you have a particular game in mind Corrugated?

Some of the modern games are very demanding, and you may be faced with upgrading gfx card, cpu, power supply and RAM. You see where I'm going with this?

I play a lot of Quake 4, which to be fair is one of the most resource intensive games out there, and after upgrading gfx cards etc, eventually realised that the machine was never going to perform like a modern dual processor, high spec machine. I went to dell and dispensed with anything that wasn't game related, so I have no speakers, didn't get a mouse and kb (as I have gaming gear), one basic DVD drive, the cheapest OS on offer, no AV software etc, and that kept the price quite reasonable. It is however only good for playing games!

Whilst I hate to suggest it, you might be better off buying a new machine, if you want to play the latest games.

I offer this only as my own experience though, I'm not an expert in these things.

[Splat]

Yeah!... what DaveK said.      IIWY I'd just get a new machine. FWIW Dell Vostro's are pretty good for the $ and you can configure yours online. My PC buddies like the Vostro and recommended the line to me when I thought I was going to buy a new system just a few months ago.

[Leatherman123]

RAM is random access memory! 

[Anthony]

Do you have a particular game in mind Corrugated?

Some of the modern games are very demanding, and you may be faced with upgrading gfx card, cpu, power supply and RAM. You see where I'm going with this?

I play a lot of Quake 4, which to be fair is one of the most resource intensive games out there, and after upgrading gfx cards etc, eventually realised that the machine was never going to perform like a modern dual processor, high spec machine. I went to dell and dispensed with anything that wasn't game related, so I have no speakers, didn't get a mouse and kb (as I have gaming gear), one basic DVD drive, the cheapest OS on offer, no AV software etc, and that kept the price quite reasonable. It is however only good for playing games!

Whilst I hate to suggest it, you might be better off buying a new machine, if you want to play the latest games.

I offer this only as my own experience though, I'm not an expert in these things.

Left 4 Dead, Fallout 3, some of the new Call of Duty games, maybe GTA4...

I was definately going to fill up my remaining 4 RAM slots (looks like I'ge got 4 slots, 2 of which have a card in them), my power supply is at 305 watts (need to research if that's good..) and an auxillary power connector inside.

I have a Pentium 4 processer instead of the new Core 2, or quad Core processors I've been reading about..that's the only bottleneck I think there can be.  Although the "minimum" requirements for L4D and Fallout 3 list the Pentium 4..

[Whoey]

Well, some googling got me this: http://reviews.cnet.com/desktops/dell-dimension-e510-pentium/4507-3118_7-31555136.html?tag=mncol;psum

The important parts for our discussion:
Processor
* Type Intel Pentium 4 630 / 3.0 GHz

Mainboard
* Chipset type   Intel 945G Express
* Data bus speed 800 MHz

RAM
* Installed Size 512 MB / 4 GB (max)
* Technology DDR2 SDRAM
*  Memory speed   533 MHz
* RAM form factor DIMM 240-pin
* RAM features Two DDR channels

Graphics Controller
* Type Integrated
* Graphics Processor / Vendor Intel GMA 950
* Video Memory Dynamic Video Memory Technology 3.0
* Installed Size 128 MB (max)

Power
* Power provided 305 Watt

Expansion Slots Total (Free) 
1 ( 1 ) x PCI Express x16
4 ( 2 ) x Memory - DIMM 240-pin

Based on this info, you have exactly the same processor as I do, a P4-3Ghz HT (Hyperthreading) Which is decent, but according to the review that specsheet was attached to, it is not upgradable (you'd need to change the mainboard, this is the same wall I've hit for both CPU and memory) Also, bear in mind an HT chip acts like a dual core... and the dual cores are mostly at a lower speed (2.smth Ghz) unless you're willing to spend a fortune! Of course the dual/quads have other benefits, but for the moment lets look at the other parts of your system:

If you're still running the stock 512mb of 533 DDR2 (in the form of 2 256mb chips) I would pull and ebay them, get yourself 2x 2Gb 800Mhz DDR2 chips (check your manual to make sure the mainboard will support 2Gb/800Mhz chips!) as it will probably be cheaper than 4x 1Gb 800Mhz that will max out your Ram. Even if you only upgrade to 2Gb, you'll notice a big difference!

I assume you're running off the integrated graphics card I'm not surprised you're frustrated. Those Intel cards are great for office stuff and a bit of lightweight gaming, but in no way are they capable of new 3D stuff. The other good news here is that you appear to have a PCI express slot available.

It is probably only a PCI express 1.0 (x16) and not the newer 2.0 (x16) required by some of the highest end cards. What does that mean? you probably can't use the newest 2x0 (260, 280 etc) series cards, or the 9x00 (9600, 9800 etc) cards. Most of the 8x00 (same deal as the 9x00) are PCI express 1.0, and probably your best bet something perhaps like a NVIDIA GeForce 8600 GT which from what I've seen doesn't require an extra power connection. They judging by my local prices probably go for between $50-100 depending on the amount and speed of the memory they come with.

In addition to these two upgrades, if you don't already have another harddrive, I recommend you get one as a lot of these newer games require about 7-8GB of space to install... get an SATA that fits into your budget (I would look at 500gb or larger these days) And with that, you should be playing Left4dead etc with no issues.

[Anthony]

Whoey I really appreciate your posts, thanks.  I did look inside my tower last night and wrote down some info to help my research.  I ran into a roadblock when it came to my power supply...I have a 305 watt and the minimum for the cards I've been looking at is 400 watts.  And I'm assuming the processor I have would become another bottleneck that woulden't allow me to use a new graphics card to it's full potential.

I've decided upgrading this machine isn't worth it (better off buying an XBox and getting used to the controller ).  I'm still going to look for good deals on PCs though for a while before I leap into a console..

[Splat]

(flak jacket on) Stay away from the Dell Dimensions. They're nothing like they used to be. They're just cheap, limited PC's, IMO. Myself and my tech buddies have worked on them enough to know. HP's are alright, or you can piece your own PC together. Newegg.com is among the best PC sites with very respectable prices. It depends how PC/tech savvy you are. You might be better off going with a pre-configured off-the-shelf system. Let us know what you're looking at before you buy anything.

[Anthony]

(flak jacket on) Stay away from the Dell Dimensions. They're nothing like they used to be. They're just cheap, limited PC's, IMO. Myself and my tech buddies have worked on them enough to know. HP's are alright, or you can piece your own PC together. Newegg.com is among the best PC sites with very respectable prices. It depends how PC/tech savvy you are. You might be better off going with a pre-configured off-the-shelf system. Let us know what you're looking at before you buy anything.

What's you opinion on Gateway?

I read this last night and it seemed to stack up well against everyone else in regards to gaming; it was only beaten out by a $2,300 Alienware system.

http://gaming-pc-review.toptenreviews.com/

[Whoey]

That's an old review judging by some of the hardware and prices, the cheapest FX series is now $900 and it's basically the one in that review. Which is a nice enough rig... I have no idea how support is for any of those...

I still think your old machine has life if you add some ram and a newer video card...

[Splat]

What's you opinion on Gateway?

Last comments I can remember hearing were their support sucks and they're going the route like Dell did with the Dimension line, eg cheapening them down. http://www.sharkeyextreme.com/ is a good place to learn about the latest systems/components/etc. and I don't always agree with him/them but they're mostly on top of things.  Oh, and you can checkout the Dell Outlet for refurbed, returned, etc., items with full warranty. I know folks that have bought from the Dell Outlet and got great deals and nothing was wrong with the stuff. I still say build your own PC and you'll save but if you don't want to do that then Alienware or Voodoopc.com are among the top tier for gaming PCs.

[NutSAK]

I have a high-end Asus mobo, Corsair ram, Sata drives, 550W psu, but my 6600GT agp video card died on me months ago. When I recently looked around for a replacement I couldn't believe how expensive agp cards are now, not to mention getting scarce. Now I'm using my onboard video and though it sucks I won't upgrade further on this machine. My next PC will be cutting-edge technology at the time of purchase.

I agree with what Whoey wrote. If your PC does what you need it do it, and fast enough for you to do that work/task/game, then there's no real need to upgrade.

You can get a great Radeon 3850 video AGP video card these days for about $120.  The rest of your system will be a bottleneck for that card.  A Radeon 2600XT would be a good choice at about $80 if for some reason you decided to go that route.  Even the 2600XT will outperform your 6600GT.

[Whoey]

eek ATI! I've only owned a few of their cards over the years, and not really enjoyed maintaining any of them. My current PVR (PC connected to my TV) has an ATI card that came with it, and I haven't bothered to replace it with a lowprofile fanless nvidia card yet... but it's on the todo list. I'd like to get Xbox mediacenter or ubuntu or something working on it, but they all puke with the ATI card and the 800x600 max of my old crt tv...

But, they are a good option these days... but it always goes without saying, you get what you pay for...

[Splat]

Thanks Terry, I already looked into getting a new AGP card but if I'm going to spend anything around a Franklin I'm just gonna get a new PC.  Re: ATI cards, I've never had a problem with them. IIRC I have o/c a few that I or my friends have had and never had a problem. Same goes for Nvidia cards. Never had a problem with them. The 6600GT is the first card I had that has died on me. I guess I've been lucky. 

[DaveK]

FWIW - I've always used ATI cards too, and whilst I've heard people complain about them occasionally, I've always been OK myself. I have Radeon X1950 in my Quake machine, and a Radeon X1300 in this one and they do just fine with Quake 4. The X1950 obviously does better

[Whoey]

I think it's more about the drivers than the cards... ATI drivers leave me with that amateur unpolished feeling... (although Nvidia haven't been great with theirs either in the past)

[NutSAK]

I've never had a problem with either ATI or NVidia, but they certainly seem to have their camps on both sides of the issue.  The only ATI's that I've had (minimal) driver issues with in the past were the All-in-Wonders.

I used to always buy NVidia, but now I buy whichever seems to give the best bang-for-the-buck at the time of purchase.  I'm currently using a Radeon X800XT on my aging AGP system, and it's never hiccuped.  I just keep a good set of Omega drivers installed, and I'm good to go....

I just installed a 7900GS in an entry-level gaming rig I built for a friend several weeks ago, and it has been flawless also.

[DaveK]

That's a good point Terry, as with everything in the gaming world, you have to pick a camp and defend it to the hilt I think!

I have had issues with ATI drivers and their "control center" software, but managed to thrash them out.

[NutSAK]

Oh yeah.  I forgot to mention--NEVER INSTALL the ATI CONTROL CENTER!!!!

You can get the Catalyst Drivers from ATI without the control center.  Install those, then just add a third party tool like ATITool.

If you use the third-party Omega drivers, you will never have to worry about the control center.