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??? 84mm. Two layers. Blades; scissors; no openers. 518

Sr. Member Posts: 356
??? 84mm. Two layers. Blades; scissors; no openers.
« on: May 19, 2019, 04:00:35 AM »
I picked up this 84mm recently.
 
- two layers
- large blade
- clip point small blade (discontinued 1973)
- scissors with broken black single leaf spring (discontinued 1975)
- keyring (introduced 1968)
- corkscrew, fluted, 4-turn (introduced 1983  ???)
- tweezers with aluminium tip
- solid scales

I haven't been able to find it in the wiki. As above, acording to the information I can find, mostly its tools date it from between 1968 and 1973. However, the corkscrew only has four turns, not five as I'd expect from the time. Is the 84mm CS's history different to 91mm? The lack of an opener layer makes it unusual and distinctive. Can anyone identify it?   :cheers:

Rambler
No Life Club Posts: 3,075
Re: ??? 84mm. Two layers. Blades; scissors; no openers.
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2019, 04:18:17 AM »
Seems close to a Golfer, but it has neither a long nailfile nor a bottle opener. Instead, it's got a clip-point pen blade.   Interesting.

This is the closest I could come up with. In this "1960s US Catalog" there is a model called the 244k. Almost the same setup--but it has a long nailfile. As for the corkscrew, that could indicate that it was serviced and rebuilt by warranty at one point.

https://www.sakwiki.com/tiki-browse_gallery.php?galleryId=73
Sr. Member Posts: 356
Re: ??? 84mm. Two layers. Blades; scissors; no openers.
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2019, 07:16:39 AM »
Thanks, Cody, much appreciated. I didn't think to look in the catalogues. :cheers:

The 244k does seem to be a close match to my knife. I know the LNF was frequently broken but I can't see where it's been on mine; perhaps I have a variant. I can't see a bottle opener in the picture. My one *doesn't* have a keyring either. I think got it confused with another knife on the table! ::)

I did wonder about the corkscrew being replaced. An owner must have been quite attached to this knife to not simply buy a replacement. My first thought was that the knife was a mod, although it seems too old for that.

If you look closely you can see gaps between the liners and scales. This suggests to me that at some point the scales have been reattached, likely glued.

It's been well used. The large blade is worn near the tang. Perhaps the owner (or one of them) was a keen wine drinker as the corkscrew has made indents in the liner and scale as it was snapped shut. All the pivots were stiff with old oil. I cleaned it up after I took the pictures in the OP and it's come up well.

Rambler
Full Member Posts: 190
Re: ??? 84mm. Two layers. Blades; scissors; no openers.
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2019, 07:31:23 AM »
It is in the wiki. Look at  84mm , 2 layer Golfer and in the Variations section you'll find Early model 0.3102 has a small blade instead of the combo-opener tool."
Think of it as a proto Golfer  :D
https://www.sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Golfer+84mm
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 12,739
Re: ??? 84mm. Two layers. Blades; scissors; no openers.
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2019, 09:23:59 AM »
Indeed. Early Golfer.
Not all of them came with LNF either.

Furthermore, I have some older SAKs with some space between the liner and scale too, but have found the constant pressure of the tweezers to be the cause there.

Buy now or regret later
Sr. Member Posts: 356
Re: ??? 84mm. Two layers. Blades; scissors; no openers.
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2019, 10:13:27 AM »
Thanks, Shalom. :cheers: Your post led me here:
Golfer Model 0.3102

Everyone loves 84mm scissors, and the 84mm LNF versions are t0.3102he most drooled over (rightly so, they are pretty awesome). As a result, everyone assumes that the Golfer LNF (either the pen blade or combo tool version) is the rarest of the rare.

Actually, it's not. The original Golfer LNF (Model 244k) was actually a pretty common model for it's time. Likewise, combo tool Golfers were made in pretty large numbers so finding one of those isn't super difficult for the dedicated collector. So what do I consider an "unusual" Golfer? Behold the Model 0.3102.

In the timeline of Golfer production, Victorinox started off in the 1940s making the Model 244k. This is a LNF Golfer with a pen blade. This model was in production for 30 years into the early 1970s when they started phasing the LNF out of regular production. So the successor to the Model 244k Golfer LNF was the Model 0.3102 shown below - same knife, just no LNF. So, if this was a regular production replacement, why is it so unusual?

Well, in the late 1970s Victorinox introduces the 84mm combo tool and creates the Golfer variant that we all know and love - the Model 0.1602. From 1978 on the pen blade model is out of production
and millions of combo tool Golfers are made until the 84mm scissors models are phased out in the late 1980s.

Standard model Golfer evolution:
(Image removed from quote.)

Golfer Model 0.3102:
(Image removed from quote.)

NB: There is a LNF version of the combo tool Golfer (Model 0.3422) that was made as special runs during the 1980s and into the early 1990s. Given their special run status these are, as you might imagine, very hard to find. However, the 0.3102 model discussed in this post is still slightly harder to find.

Followed by this one:
Very interesting Jazzbass, about those Golfers.  You made me put mine all together to compare and it seems I got one as well (picture top right) :D .  Not like yours, but like the one on the picture, with a 4-turn cork screw and t&t.
So, got to be looking now for the rare combo tool with LNF... :facepalm:
A shame jazzbass's pictures have evaporated. Herman's attached picture shows the 0.3102 with the clip point blade and four turn corkscrew, so my CS is probably original. The scissor spring is a black double leaf, as mine must have been after all.

According to the wiki, the clip point blade was discontinued in 1973. If my reading is correct, this dates the knife to then or earlier, but not much earlier as the LNF is absent. My source (http://victorinox.metodi.me/91mmtools.php#corkscrew) says the four turn corkscrew was introduced ten years later - this must be wrong? I haven't been able to find another source with a date. Does anyone here know it?

Rambler
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 12,739
Re: ??? 84mm. Two layers. Blades; scissors; no openers.
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2019, 10:29:46 AM »
It was discussed a few days ago that quite some info on SAAM's site has since been found to be wrong.
Even though it was (and still is) an important source of info.

On top of that, tool evolutions on the 91mm and 84mm frames happened far in between and the 91mm evolution is not following the same timeline at all.

Buy now or regret later
Sr. Member Posts: 356
Re: ??? 84mm. Two layers. Blades; scissors; no openers.
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2019, 10:34:40 AM »
Indeed. Early Golfer.
Not all of them came with LNF either.

Furthermore, I have some older SAKs with some space between the liner and scale too, but have found the constant pressure of the tweezers to be the cause there.
Yeah, that side is definitely worse and the tweezers have very little spring left in them. The weird thing is that both scales have bulged right at the T&T end, but only on the sides nearest the blades. I'm wondering if either dirt's worked its way into the slots or it really is epoxy. I can't dislodge any of the gunk with a safety pin. A minor mystery!

Rambler
Sr. Member Posts: 356
Re: ??? 84mm. Two layers. Blades; scissors; no openers.
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2019, 10:54:16 AM »
It was discussed a few days ago that quite some info on SAAM's site has since been found to be wrong.
Even though it was (and still is) an important source of info.

On top of that, tool evolutions on the 91mm and 84mm frames happened far in between and the 91mm evolution is not following the same timeline at all.
Thanks. I'll look for the thread.

Edit: Found it, thanks. :)
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 11:42:00 AM by Sawl Goodman »

Rambler
Hero Member Posts: 758
Global Moderator Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,427
Re: ??? 84mm. Two layers. Blades; scissors; no openers.
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2019, 11:53:26 PM »
Nice Golfers, Sawl and Marko :like: :tu: :cheers:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hero Member Posts: 723
Re: ??? 84mm. Two layers. Blades; scissors; no openers.
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2019, 05:24:04 AM »
I agree with the Golfer assessment. My opinion is that the double leaf black oxide spring puts these all solidly in the '73-'75 range.  Backup 'proof' is the corkscrew 'matches' other knives I have dated into the same range.  If it had an awl, I'd be able to put it into the earlier or latter ends of that range.

The clip point isn't an issue/conflict for this date range in 84mm.
Hero Member Posts: 723
Re: ??? 84mm. Two layers. Blades; scissors; no openers.
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2019, 07:00:40 AM »
In the hope to clarify what I believe is an error, I don't think the LNF versions like the 244k were ever Golfers.

I believe the Original Golfer is based off the 136ka Craftsman, but with horn scales. First listed that I know of in the 26 Model Catalog (which I believe is mid-late '60s) My guess is that it was directly succeeded c. '73 with the 0.3102 version and followed by the 0.1602 in the late '70s.



Full Member Posts: 188
Re: ??? 84mm. Two layers. Blades; scissors; no openers.
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2019, 10:48:46 AM »
They (not victorinox, but US-marketing) used the same name for different models. So better than searching for a name is to check the numbers given for the different models.

The "golfer" model with mainblade, small blade, scissors and backside tools exist since ca. 1900. Then, it was called a model Nr. 207k. The tools/configuration changed a lot over the years. For a specific time period, there were two different configuration, with or without the long nailfile, and with different numbers.
Sr. Member Posts: 356
Re: ??? 84mm. Two layers. Blades; scissors; no openers.
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2019, 11:41:35 AM »
Thanks, M0rconi and jaya_man. Your one's a beauty, Morconi. 8) 

It's nice to have an interesting model and get the story behind it. I knew very little about the Golfer until yesterday and nothing of its history. I'm constantly amazed at the depth and breadth of experience and knowledge here!  :hatsoff:

Rambler
Sr. Member Posts: 356
Re: ??? 84mm. Two layers. Blades; scissors; no openers.
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2019, 11:57:51 AM »
They (not victorinox, but US-marketing) used the same name for different models. So better than searching for a name is to check the numbers given for the different models.

The "golfer" model with mainblade, small blade, scissors and backside tools exist since ca. 1900. Then, it was called a model Nr. 207k. The tools/configuration changed a lot over the years. For a specific time period, there were two different configuration, with or without the long nailfile, and with different numbers.
The Golfer in the picture has an Artisan or Fieldmaster Small toolset. This is very different from the classic Golfer's toolset of the 70s and 80s, so they can't share the same lineage. They only have the name in common.

The Vic "fossil record" shows that the classic Golfer belongs to a lineage with the 244k as an ancestor. Thanks, ulli, for pointing out that that lineage has a very long history. If I understand correctly, it continues today with the Compact.

Rambler
Hero Member Posts: 723
Re: ??? 84mm. Two layers. Blades; scissors; no openers.
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2019, 05:36:57 PM »
They (not victorinox, but US-marketing) used the same name for different models. So better than searching for a name is to check the numbers given for the different models.

The "golfer" model with mainblade, small blade, scissors and backside tools exist since ca. 1900. Then, it was called a model Nr. 207k. The tools/configuration changed a lot over the years. For a specific time period, there were two different configuration, with or without the long nailfile, and with different numbers.

I understand that the toolsets have been around for ages.  What most people have trouble with, is that there is no proof that the 244k or 207k was ever called a 'Golfer'. Even the newer runs with the LNF where there are BOXED examples, there is no GOLFER label to be found. Therefore, I do not believe the LNF versions were ever Golfers.

If I am wrong, there will be some catalog or boxed version of the LNF knife out there with the label on it.

The Golfer in the picture has an Artisan or Fieldmaster Small toolset.

Craftsman toolset



Hero Member Posts: 723
Re: ??? 84mm. Two layers. Blades; scissors; no openers.
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2019, 11:10:58 PM »
My copy:


forgot it also has a blank rear tang


Mine should be '73 or '75 for that.

 

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