Archaeology and ancient civilizations

[Gerhard Gerber]

I always enjoyed the Ancient Aliens show for smurfs&giggles, joked that I wish they were right......

Even mild exposure to this topic and the wonderful way the youtubes worked have made me aware of the work of  John Anthony West, Robert Bauval, Robert Schoch, Graham Hancock and others.

It seems the proof that Clovis were indeed not Clovis First, as well as what is known about the climate and sea levels in the past combined with all the archaeological sites found under sea level clearly indicates a forgotten past.

Most fascinating is the clear indications of forgotten technologies, most tellingly the mega-tonne pieces of rock that were moved and shaped.

Anybody else with an interest in this field?

I think it must be a bit frustrating because I simply can't imagine how the could finally prove this beyond a doubt and answer all the questions about the technology if it wasn't aliens and they don't come back.

What I find equally fascinating and  disgusting is that some people refuse to even consider the story they've been told might be wrong, despite physical evidence to the contrary.

My understanding is that in the case of Clovis First, all it took was literally digging a bit deeper 

[pietervn]

I'm a fan and interested in ancient peoples.

I started watching the Ancient Aliens series a while back when I had a few days off in bed. Very interesting stuff indeed. I have tracked down most of the episodes up to season 4, AFAIK... Just need time to watch them.

I agree that there have been technologies in the past that seems to do what we cannot do with heavy machinery today, as well as the precision building.

I'm currently reading a book called Keepers of the Garden by Dolores Cannon that focus on regression hypnosis and channelling. The bloke being regressed is very interesting and seems to have a connection to "star people" that seeded Earth many many years ago.

Once I'm done I'll give some opinion on what I think of it.

Cheers, Pete

[lister]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_machine

There are also youtube videos on how the statues were made, on how stone blocks for pyramids were cut (bronze sheets of metal and abrasive silica sand), how the pyramid was constructed so it served as it's own inclined plane. But I don't have the time to hunt them down as I am supposed to be working... 

[Gerhard Gerber]

There are also youtube videos on how the statues were made, on how stone blocks for pyramids were cut (bronze sheets of metal and abrasive silica sand), how the pyramid was constructed so it served as it's own inclined plane. But I don't have the time to hunt them down as I am supposed to be working... 

Yes I've watched the debunking videos as well, please note the names I didn't mention
Having worked at mines I saw a bit of what we can do with rocks, but we're not talking about 20 tonnes, but hundreds or thousands of tonnes.

But let's ignore those for now, most interesting for me are the sites that pre-date currently accepted history.
In some cases I guess there might be arguments about dating techniques, but the site that are under water where the know exactly when last it was above water.......those are facinating.

bronze sheets of metal and abrasive silica sand

Go check out the stone boxes in the Serapeum of Saqqara and explain those 

[Gerhard Gerber]

I'm a fan and interested in ancient peoples.

I started watching the Ancient Aliens series a while back when I had a few days off in bed. Very interesting stuff indeed. I have tracked down most of the episodes up to season 4, AFAIK... Just need time to watch them.

I agree that there have been technologies in the past that seems to do what we cannot do with heavy machinery today, as well as the precision building.

I'm currently reading a book called Keepers of the Garden by Dolores Cannon that focus on regression hypnosis and channelling. The bloke being regressed is very interesting and seems to have a connection to "star people" that seeded Earth many many years ago.

Once I'm done I'll give some opinion on what I think of it.

Cheers, Pete

The show went through a rehash BS phase IMO, but Season 14 had some interesting episodes. 

[ThundahBeagle]

This is not a knock against anyone who watches Ancient Aliens, but Archaeology and Ancient Civilizations was the title of this post and we got the switcheroo. One topic is serious, and the other is pure conjecture - a filling in of the gaps in facts with a wistful desire to meet friendly and benevolent aliens.

Oh how the History Channel has fallen. Unfortunately this is what gets them ratings.

For me, anyway, I want them to stick to factual documentaries, and leave the conjecture up to the viewer.

I am by no means an expert, though I did dabble in Archaeology a bit back in the day.

Admittedly curious, however, are sites such as the Nazca Lines. Glyphs, which can only be seen from some distance above. And I am willing to concede that when the bible discusses chariots of burning fire in the sky, it could be God, if you believe in that sort of thing, or someone in some ship in the sky. How else would our ancestors describe it, but a chariot?

But in the end, I tend to put Ancient Aliens in the same place I put Area 51 flying saucers...the truth is out there and it is far more simple than aliens.

The ancient Egyptians did it with brute strength, levers, digging holes and pulling with rope and pulleys, and a lot of slave labor courtesy of the Israelites. And Area 51 is clearly not a hotbed for flying saucer activity, but is (was) a test area for stealth aircraft.

[ThundahBeagle]

If you pour over the information about Roswell, a son of one of the Army officers recalls him coming home and showing him some shiny metallic material that they could crush into a ball with one hand, yet it would open back up when they released it.

Big wow! Go buy some pop tarts and you get 3 or 4 pouches like that. I'm sure they didnt reverse engineer spacecraft technology just to keep some toaster pastries soft and fresh.

[ThundahBeagle]

I'll just sit back and take my lumps now

[Gerhard Gerber]

This is not a knock against anyone who watches Ancient Aliens, but Archaeology and Ancient Civilizations was the title of this post and we got the switcheroo. One topic is serious, and the other is pure conjecture - a filling in of the gaps in facts with a wistful desire to meet friendly and benevolent aliens.

Oh how the History Channel has fallen. Unfortunately this is what gets them ratings.

For me, anyway, I want them to stick to factual documentaries, and leave the conjecture up to the viewer.

I'll just sit back and take my lumps now

  No worries, I agree 99% with 1% being reserved for wishing aliens are real 

There's a lot more than Nazca, go read up on Göbekli Tepe for a start.

I also know some of stuff underwater is contentious like those of the coast of Japan and the Bimini Road, but the stuff off the coast of India leaves no doubt.....

I also mentioned Clovis First, go read up on the newest info in that field, and then have a look at the people that had their careers destroyed for daring to say Clovis weren't first.  Some of those responsible are still around, but most are retired or dead, so the truth can come out.

Much of what has been taught in this field for a century is simply incorrect.   

[Gerhard Gerber]

The ancient Egyptians did it with brute strength, levers, digging holes and pulling with rope and pulleys, and a lot of slave labor courtesy of the Israelites.

I've seen interviews with engineers, stone quarry managers that simply laugh at that concept.

The stone sarcophagi at Saqqara are something else, and in a video I watched the describe the Egyptian hieroglyphs on them as graffiti, and I dare anybody with eyes to disagree. Nevermind the stone they're made of, where that came from and the precision.

 

[Blackbeard]

Whatever the case may be, this thing is pretty mysterious: The Antikythera mechanism, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

[lister]

I've seen interviews with engineers, stone quarry managers that simply laugh at that concept.

The stone sarcophagi at Saqqara are something else, and in a video I watched the describe the Egyptian hieroglyphs on them as graffiti, and I dare anybody with eyes to disagree. Nevermind the stone they're made of, where that came from and the precision.

Modern ingineer stating that he does not know how to do something with ancient technology they have no experience with is not saying much. How do stone quarry managers even qualify to give an opinion?

Also what precision? It's not like later stone structures are full of holes. Also, the most flat things we currently produce come in the shape of three sets of granite blocks that were repeatedly rubbed together. Any machinist wants to chime in?

That said, I am almost certain that intelligent aliens exist. There is also at least a chance that interstellar travel is posible. What I totali refuse to belive is that there are little grey men smurfing around the galaxy in their flying saucers shaped like cigars drawing geometric designs in local staple crop monocultures and helping some stone age apes with delusions of grandeur errect stone phalic extensions. Call me crazy if you want...

[ThundahBeagle]

Whatever the case may be, this thing is pretty mysterious: The Antikythera mechanism, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism
(Image removed from quote.)

I think it is complicated, but it is basically a clock and calendar. We think we are so far advanced but disease and war of the dark and medieval times erased a lot of usable technology fro the human grasp. We were just trying to survive. The renaissance brought us back to a point we shed have continued along centuries earlier.

Just proof that progress is not always a simple bell curve. There are pauses, and even severe setbacks

[ThundahBeagle]

No worries, I agree 99% with 1% being reserved for wishing aliens are real 

There's a lot more than Nazca, go read up on Göbekli Tepe for a start.

I also know some of stuff underwater is contentious like those of the coast of Japan and the Bimini Road, but the stuff off the coast of India leaves no doubt.....

I also mentioned Clovis First, go read up on the newest info in that field, and then have a look at the people that had their careers destroyed for daring to say Clovis weren't first.  Some of those responsible are still around, but most are retired or dead, so the truth can come out.

Much of what has been taught in this field for a century is simply incorrect. 

I will check on Gobekli. Thanks

And sure, we can figure that a lot of what we were taught over the last couple centuries may be incorrect.  There was a time when dinosaur bones were thought to be the bones of giant humans.

Nice topic

[Gerhard Gerber]

Modern ingineer stating that he does not know how to do something with ancient technology they have no experience with is not saying much. How do stone quarry managers even qualify to give an opinion?

  Uhmmmmmm, because they work with big rocks?

Go have a look at what it took to move this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levitated_Mass

Also what precision? It's not like later stone structures are full of holes. Also, the most flat things we currently produce come in the shape of three sets of granite blocks that were repeatedly rubbed together. Any machinist wants to chime in?

I was very smurfed-off watching one of the AA-debunking videos where the show David Childress with a set square in his hand struggling to fake the precision - although impressive it was not "precisely 90deg" as they claim.  IIRC this was at Pumapunku.

Those stone boxes at Saqqara are a very different story......

That said, I am almost certain that intelligent aliens exist. There is also at least a chance that interstellar travel is posible. What I totali refuse to belive is that there are little grey men smurfing around the galaxy in their flying saucers shaped like cigars drawing geometric designs in local staple crop monocultures and helping some stone age apes with delusions of grandeur errect stone phalic extensions. Call me crazy if you want...

  I mostly agree with you, but if humans can be egotistical god-kings, why not some ALF with advanced tech? 

[Vidar]

Also, the most flat things we currently produce come in the shape of three sets of granite blocks that were repeatedly rubbed together. Any machinist wants to chime in?

Tom Lipton, a very well known machinist, actually made a video of that earlier.

As for the thread theme itself I haven't seen any of those tv shows. What I have noticed however from archeological shows in general is that they seem prone to jump to conclusion based on their own limited knowledge of other fields than archeology. Thus if they themselves don't know or understand something they seem to too easily conclude it is not known knowledge today.

On the other hand I'm also quite sure that our ancestors had techniques and knowledge that has indeed been lost. We only have to look back maybe 100-200 years and look at all the profesions and crafts that don't exist anymore. The knowledge and techniques from those are still partially preserved in writing, photos and movies. But profesions and crafts from ancient times and how they did things don't have much or any at all recorded, and thus lots of lost knowledge. That we don't have records about how they did things doesn't mean they couldn't.

Just based on the above I think it is difficult to say what people could or couldn't do earlier. And if you asked any ancient expert of stone masonry if he thought a few people could break up large volumes of rock, crush it and then move it then the ancient expert would say impossible - maybe just as an modern expert might conclude of the old ways.

[Vidar]

Ah, that ended up double.. Hm, seems like there is a third case - people who can't even use technology of their own times... 

[lister]

I am almost certain that there are more flintknappers now than there were during the stone age... 

[Vidar]

I am almost certain that there are more flintknappers now than there were during the stone age... 

That might very well be true.

I just don't think we should underestimate what ancient people were capable of by themselves. Archaeologists and modern experts have few clues as to how some things were done back they. Further the moderns have limited time, relevant experience and resources to think about how it could have been done. A few archaeologists and modern experts, even if great at it, pale in comparison to the actual ancients who likely had thousands of years to think about the issues and develop their technical skills - and plenty of lifetimes devoted to solving the issues.

That said I'm not discounting any theory - just for the lack of any other theory to be a clear and complete answer. Which we might very well never get.

As for aliens I think it is very likely that there is life out there somewhere, and probably intelligent life too. There is just soooo much universe out there.

[Don Pablo]

The average weight of a block in the Great Pyramid is 2.5 tonnes.
Not exactly hard to do when you have the entire farming population to make use of in the off-season. 
(Yes, peasants, not slaves, did the labour. Not that there was much of a distinction between the two)

[Top-Gear-24]

In my opinion, thinking we're the only "intelligent beings" out there would be quite arrogant ... But that's just my own humble opinion as always  .

Oh, and there's always this ...

Show content

[ThundahBeagle]

The universe is vast. I personally would not presume we are the only intelligent life. But if the universe is indeed infinite, then there can be infinite space between habitable worlds.

By the way, what makes us think aliens would be friendly? Like the Normans to Britain? The Eauropeans the the new world.

No...if and when they arrive, it will likely spell our undoing.

Another theory if that these visitors are not really alien at all, but we arrived  from another planet and that these visitors are merely that faction of humans that continued traveling through space. When they return to visit, the theory of relativity means that little time has passed for them while very long periods of time have passed on this earth. So, they are us.

[Gerhard Gerber]

The average weight of a block in the Great Pyramid is 2.5 tonnes.
Not exactly hard to do when you have the entire farming population to make use of in the off-season. 
(Yes, peasants, not slaves, did the labour. Not that there was much of a distinction between the two)

I believe as far as the Great Pyramids are concerned the question is more how was such precision achieved as well as when they were actually built.  Agreed 2.5 tonnes is not impossible.

The actual question is about megalithic sites all over the world with stones into thousands of tonnes.  Fitted perfectly. 

Many of these civilizations mention predecessors, and I believe in South America (and IIRC correctly Japan) you can obviously see never and less accomplished construction on top of megalithic "foundations"

Things get tricky when you look at the Sumerian King's List that goes back to kings that rules for 30K or 100K years.  So a list of actual kings that seems to descend into fantasy.......who knows. 

[Gerhard Gerber]

I need to find and link a documentary many of you should find interesting, but it's important to understand that the current version of history being taught is not correct and getting holes punched into it daily.

Extremely fascinating is DNA evidence disproving long held theories about human migration.

This week:
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-48913307
Same story but a great channel:

[lister]

That might very well be true.

I think it is. There are 7.6 billion of us today. There are estimates that number of all primates ever alive that we could consider human is around 100 billion, which means that currently 7.6% of all humans alive any time up to now are alive at this very moment. 

[Vidar]

I think it is. There are 7.6 billion of us today. There are estimates that number of all primates ever alive that we could consider human is around 100 billion, which means that currently 7.6% of all humans alive any time up to now are alive at this very moment. 

I'm afraid I took that literal, and thought about the number of actual flintknappers today vs then. Given the difference in population I figured it might still be more.. 

[lister]

I'm afraid I took that literal, and thought about the number of actual flintknappers today vs then. Given the difference in population I figured it might still be more.. 

I don't know if I get what you mean? What I was implying is that because there are so much more people now there are more flintknappers than in stone age, despite the fact that % of population that was flintknapping back then was a lot higher. Add the internet to the mix and I would not be surprised if we are generally better at it than they were since information exchange was a lot more limited then.

The same goes for sword fighting. I bet there are more swordmen (and especially swordwomen) now than at the peak of sword use. I am not saying that they are better, since HEMA is still young and as far as I know a lot of  Asian marital arts were changed to more sport-like state (same as European fencing). But the interest in what actual sword use was like is growing. The internet and international championships will bring more and more of the best experts together and I thing we can soon expect a crop of the best sword fighters ever in an age when sword is not all that useful as a weapon. Also I am sure that we currently produce more swords than ever before and they are of higher quality than ever before.

Ant the same goes for basically any ancient technology that is remotely interesting/useful to us. And while we like to forget that the same basic design of brains that got us in to space, cured many diseases and filled the internet with vast amounts of porn was in use 1000 of years ago, we also err in the other direction and assume that we are somehow incapable of repeating achievements of millennia past. 

[Vidar]

I don't know if I get what you mean? What I was implying is that because there are so much more people now there are more flintknappers than in stone age, despite the fact that % of population that was flintknapping back then was a lot higher. Add the internet to the mix and I would not be surprised if we are generally better at it than they were since information exchange was a lot more limited then.

We are very much on the same page then.

Ant the same goes for basically any ancient technology that is remotely interesting/useful to us. And while we like to forget that the same basic design of brains that got us in to space, cured many diseases and filled the internet with vast amounts of porn was in use 1000 of years ago, we also err in the other direction and assume that we are somehow incapable of repeating achievements of millennia past. 

We are certainly capable of repeating them - but as we have better ways today we don't really spend much resources at it. How to move a big rock manually might be of curious interest today, but back then it was an important and prioritized area of development.

[Don Pablo]

We are certainly capable of repeating them - but as we have better ways today we don't really spend much resources at it. How to move a big rock manually might be of curious interest today, but back then it was an important and prioritized area of development.

As for "how to move a big rock", I think that the immense amount of time might have erased traces of the log rollers, sledges, etc that they used to move said rocks.
While we can't (certainly) say what method they used, we can think of several methods that they also would probably have been able to think of, yes?

I doubt that the ancients had any lost secrets like spaceships that we haven't replicated so far, but they weren't stupid either.

(Though "Greek fire" is interesting. We've come up with several recipes that can do that same thing, but we don't really know what recipe the Byzantine Romans used. And I reckon they figured it out via a happy accident)

[Vidar]

As for "how to move a big rock", I think that the immense amount of time might have erased traces of the log rollers, sledges, etc that they used to move said rocks. While we can't (certainly) say what method they used, we can think of several methods that they also would probably have been able to think of, yes?

Agreed. And they might have had some techniques that are less than obivous today as well? Many problems have quite specific solutions, and until you have the right one a solution might seem impossible even to experts in the field. Flight with heavier than air objects was for instance declared impossible by most experts at the time - until someone who hadn't got the memo did it.

Granted it seems reasonable that there are less such narrow solutions the less technical the problem is. (As a sidenote a solution that is not obvious to experts in the field is a key criteria for granting patents - and there are granted lots of them every year).

My point is just that such solutions often comes from a single person having a little aha moment. And then usually one person among very many working on the same problem. Thus, when some TV show or scientist declares something impossible just based on the fact that they themselves can't see a solution I find that fairly arrogant. I guess it makes for nice headlines and show titles though?

And I reckon they figured it out via a happy accident)

I'm going to guess unhappy accident... 

Anyway, back to the alien theories?