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Any braze / welders in the house? 451

Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 26,576 Plumbers Know Their Crap!!
Any braze / welders in the house?
« on: August 09, 2019, 04:04:44 AM »
Looking for someone who knows about brazing, not tig but with a simple touch?  Some of you may know I want to build a unique trike using bike parts and steel, I used to weld but no longer have a welder, and don’t think I should because of the flickering and my seizures. Now I have a torch and started looking into brazing, kinda like plumbing’s soldering, no flickering, but I was told that by brazing a bike frame steel to steel that it wouldn’t be strong enough? I think it said it would take 70,000psi, but again I have no clue about this and if this would work? Any info thanks
JR

"The-Mad-Plumbarian" The Punisher Of Pipes!!! JR
No Life Club Posts: 1,599
Re: Any braze / welders in the house?
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2019, 02:56:14 PM »
Looking for someone who knows about brazing, not tig but with a simple touch?  Some of you may know I want to build a unique trike using bike parts and steel, I used to weld but no longer have a welder, and don’t think I should because of the flickering and my seizures. Now I have a torch and started looking into brazing, kinda like plumbing’s soldering, no flickering, but I was told that by brazing a bike frame steel to steel that it wouldn’t be strong enough? I think it said it would take 70,000psi, but again I have no clue about this and if this would work? Any info thanks
JR

I don't know if brazing going to do it. You know you can weld with a torch. But I think mig would be the way to go. Check with a high school shop or Ag shop teacher to see if they have a student that needs a project for a grade. That way you could tack it up and take it to them. When I was in high school I had a ROP welding class that was two hours a day. I was always happy to be able to weld something that wasn't metal plates.

I think Alcohol, Tabacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. 

Mike
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 26,576 Plumbers Know Their Crap!!
Re: Any braze / welders in the house?
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2019, 08:09:50 PM »
Isn’t welding with just a torch brazing? Just depending on what rod you use?

I’m all lost, tig mig, roasting a pig, idk,
I know there’s the stick which I used to do, then the wire fed which I never really liked, then you get into all the gas setups which I have no clue?
All I know is I have to join like 2” square stock to a bike frame, and old school bikes used to be brazed I think brass, I don’t have a welder nor do I think I could handle it with the flashing, that and I only have 110v out in the garage, thus I found brazing, but I guess not strong enough, cause your melting the stick to the metal vs the metal to the stick? Idk if my mapp gas torch will push enough heat to do that, maybe, definitely not the propane!
JR

"The-Mad-Plumbarian" The Punisher Of Pipes!!! JR
No Life Club Posts: 1,516
Re: Any braze / welders in the house?
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2019, 10:52:52 PM »
Isn’t welding with just a torch brazing? Just depending on what rod you use?

Welding and brazing are two different processes. With welding you melt the materials you are going to join with or without some extra additional material of a similar kind. With brazing the joined materials does not melt at all, but you add a third material via rod/ sheet/ gel that does melt and connect to both materials to be joined. (Typically also with the help of a suitable flux).

There are lots of different brazing materials with various characteristics and suitability for joining different materials.

While brazing is generally a less strong connection than welding it can still be more than strong enough for many uses. The joins themselves might need more planning so you want lots of surface areas connecting. Brazing have the upside of being able to join totally different material groups, and as it doesn't melt the parent materials there is less metallurgical issues due to heat and less distortions.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 10:59:03 PM by Vidar »

"If only simple wasn't so hard" - me
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
No Life Club Posts: 1,516
Re: Any braze / welders in the house?
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2019, 11:18:49 PM »
I guess my previous reply didn't really touch on the original question. I don't know much about bicycle frames but I do know brazing are used also for structural tasks - but then with an appropriate joint design for brazing. A short search turned up this one which kind of shows the differences in approach to bicycle joints for welding and brazing: https://www.missionbicycle.com/blog/welding-vs-brazing-bike-frames

A gas (oxygen/ acetylene) based welding torch with enough and precise heat can be used for both brazing and welding. It isn't the easiest welding method out there though so expect some time practicing - the results can be very good though. TIG is the most similar electric process as both is about using one hand to heat with the torch and the other hand to add filler material (if needed).

"If only simple wasn't so hard" - me
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 26,576 Plumbers Know Their Crap!!
Re: Any braze / welders in the house?
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2019, 03:27:24 AM »
No I understood what you were saying I just got busy and totally forgot about this subject,
From what I understand you can braze a bike, it’s because of the curves in the joint, it has contact and will hold, or even like soldering a piece of copper tubing to a fitting ==] the pipe slides into the fitting then when heated the solder melts flowing around the copper then getting sucked into the fitting to create the seal, but what I’m after doing I have to use some simple stock metal and butt joint? Just edge to edge, and they say brazing that will not hold. But of course in welding it will and is the most simple,,
JR

"The-Mad-Plumbarian" The Punisher Of Pipes!!! JR
No Life Club Posts: 3,291 One Day Closer To Death
Re: Any braze / welders in the house?
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2019, 06:27:35 AM »
Without fittings I think it would crack, but I have only brazed copper, since you know how to thread pipe, maybe consider that route, I think that would be pretty strong, but not sure you could get the angles right that way.

Not sure who you were building it for, is it for a kid?

I bet you could get a used bike frame for practically nothing and build it out from that with minimal or no torch use, maybe search local junkyard or bike store and youtube
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 06:43:13 AM by Blackbeard »

BB :B:
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 26,576 Plumbers Know Their Crap!!
Re: Any braze / welders in the house?
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2019, 07:09:50 AM »
Without fittings I think it would crack, but I have only brazed copper, since you know how to thread pipe, maybe consider that route, I think that would be pretty strong, but not sure you could get the angles right that way.

Not sure who you were building it for, is it for a kid?
Actually I could get the angles down pretty good, just over time the joints can shake and loosen, then your going down the sidewalk half sideways, lol
And no, it’s for me, I want to get out and ride, just can’t because of my limitations, I’ve posted on here under some other subject idk which one but the Mrs got her first ever bike (a trike) she was finally able to do it after loosing over 215lbs, and since I have seizures I’m kinda limited, yeah I can ride a bike but it’s very dangerous, so I’ve looked into what’s called a recumbent trike, you basically sit in a full seat rather then a poll and your very low to the ground so not easy to tip, I want to build one with a seatbelt and a unique hand break, cause if I have a seizure my arm pulls toward my chest so if I put a spring loaded break that’s held on place by say a cotterpin and just attach a small piece of paracord to it and to my wrist, and then I have one the arm will pull the pin releasing the spring to tighten the break and give the Mrs time to get over to me,
That in all is my “theory” and am trying to figure out how to build this thing, if I could weld great, witch in all I can but I don’t think I can take the flashing, that and I don’t have a welder, I mean I can buy one of these trikes and mod it with a break but these things are like 2k and up, I can’t even touch one for under $800 used,  it’s just crazy..
JR

"The-Mad-Plumbarian" The Punisher Of Pipes!!! JR
No Life Club Posts: 1,516
Re: Any braze / welders in the house?
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2019, 08:45:51 AM »
...so I’ve looked into what’s called a recumbent trike, you basically sit in a full seat rather then a poll and your very low to the ground so not easy to tip...

I had to look those up. I've seen quite a few of those passing by here - I guess they are popular with long distance cyclists.

If I were to make one my first thought would be welding, and then with close attention to the potential for distortion. (You likely want the wheels perpendicular to the axis and parallel to the frame, and the steering wheel straight down on the wheel and so on). Some fixturing/ jigging and clamping might be in order. As for processes TIG would likely be first choice.

I'm not entirely sure what you refer to with "flashing"? The sudden light when it gets going, or the frequency variation with some welding gear?

There wouldn't happen to be some engineering or trade school or similar nearby with students looking for a project to do?



 

"If only simple wasn't so hard" - me
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
No Life Club Posts: 3,291 One Day Closer To Death
Re: Any braze / welders in the house?
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2019, 09:31:58 AM »
JR, I have a Marcy recumbent stationary bike I got on ebay for about $100, it's pretty good and if you just need it for exercise I recommend it, I can PM you a pic, I don't remember who the seller was, but it's another option you can consider.

BB :B:
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,017
Re: Any braze / welders in the house?
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2019, 11:28:26 AM »
I think Outback in Idaho has posted somewhere about his recumbent?  :think:

Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 26,576 Plumbers Know Their Crap!!
Re: Any braze / welders in the house?
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2019, 07:00:02 PM »
JR, I have a Marcy recumbent stationary bike I got on ebay for about $100, it's pretty good and if you just need it for exercise I recommend it, I can PM you a pic, I don't remember who the seller was, but it's another option you can consider.
The Mrs has one downstairs in her what’s becoming workout room, I want one on wheels so I can get out of this house and ride with her, lol
JR

"The-Mad-Plumbarian" The Punisher Of Pipes!!! JR
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 26,576 Plumbers Know Their Crap!!
Re: Any braze / welders in the house?
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2019, 07:18:20 PM »
I had to look those up. I've seen quite a few of those passing by here - I guess they are popular with long distance cyclists.


I'm not entirely sure what you refer to with "flashing"? The sudden light when it gets going, or the frequency variation with some welding gear?

There wouldn't happen to be some engineering or trade school or similar nearby with students looking for a project to do?
Flashing, fast on / off of a light, like watching lightning or fireworks. They can put me in a machine that produce flashes of light at diff speeds and brightness to automatically bring on a seizure, I had a test done about 2months ago, and after sitting for around 10min to focus I still got up and almost face planted only after 2min of lights.
JR

"The-Mad-Plumbarian" The Punisher Of Pipes!!! JR
No Life Club Posts: 1,516
Re: Any braze / welders in the house?
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2019, 11:22:52 PM »
Flashing, fast on / off of a light, like watching lightning or fireworks. They can put me in a machine that produce flashes of light at diff speeds and brightness to automatically bring on a seizure, I had a test done about 2months ago, and after sitting for around 10min to focus I still got up and almost face planted only after 2min of lights.
JR

That sounds scary. I was just wondering if a single start flash or a fairly even light after that would be a worry as some processes are quite even when they get going and make few sparks at all.

"If only simple wasn't so hard" - me
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 26,576 Plumbers Know Their Crap!!
Re: Any braze / welders in the house?
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2019, 11:52:26 PM »
That sounds scary. I was just wondering if a single start flash or a fairly even light after that would be a worry as some processes are quite even when they get going and make few sparks at all.
Yeah even a single lightning bolt can do it, it just depends on how powerful, but it would have to be a good flash! It’s the multiple sparks and bright lights that scare me.
JR

"The-Mad-Plumbarian" The Punisher Of Pipes!!! JR
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 17,513 I'm not a pessimist, I'm an experienced optimist!
Re: Any braze / welders in the house?
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2019, 12:03:12 AM »
This is sounding fraught with problems. I wouldn't want to risk riding round on one that was only brazed together, even welds crack occasionally. I wouldn't risk using a welder though, especially not if your reflex reaction is to pull your arm (complete with high voltage partially molten welding rod) across your chest should a seizure happen... :dwts: For just one project, it would surely be cheaper to pay a local welder with beer than buy/hire the welding kit anyway, wouldn't it?  :think: Buy the parts, do all the cutting and prep, and then let someone else do the hot work.  :dunno:



The cantankerous but occasionally useful member, formally known as 50ft-trad
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 26,576 Plumbers Know Their Crap!!
Re: Any braze / welders in the house?
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2019, 01:41:20 AM »
This is sounding fraught with problems. I wouldn't want to risk riding round on one that was only brazed together, even welds crack occasionally. I wouldn't risk using a welder though, especially not if your reflex reaction is to pull your arm (complete with high voltage partially molten welding rod) across your chest should a seizure happen... :dwts: For just one project, it would surely be cheaper to pay a local welder with beer than buy/hire the welding kit anyway, wouldn't it?  :think: Buy the parts, do all the cutting and prep, and then let someone else do the hot work.  :dunno:
That’s what I’d like to do, but I got to find all the parts to make fit, and then find someone willing to weld,
So far I’ve got one guy willing to work with me over a handshake and a soda, but he’s like an hrs drive and we don’t drive, and some other guy who basically told me if he’s got to drive to us you can’t afford me..
I swear most of the people around here are so up freaking tight,
Their selling used bikes that are beat up, need tubes, and brakes and still want absolute top dollar for! Like dude, if the thing was well taken care of you still can’t get the same price you paid for it, but you think your going to get full price for something crappy? Then they get mad when they have to keep dropping the price, so when it hits my range and I’ll buy but ask if they’ll deliver their too mad because their not getting what they want so NO! So I still haven’t got any parts for this project either..
JR

"The-Mad-Plumbarian" The Punisher Of Pipes!!! JR
No Life Club Posts: 3,832
Re: Any braze / welders in the house?
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2019, 11:59:14 AM »
Yeah even a single lightning bolt can do it, it just depends on how powerful, but it would have to be a good flash! It’s the multiple sparks and bright lights that scare me.
JR

Any idea what the root cause is?

Sorry if this is too personal a question, but I'm still stunned by a documentary I watched the weekend, long story short, who knew that a Keto diet could cure epilepsy in some cases...... :ahhh

Regarding the bike build plan, I have to second what was mentioned in the other thread, I don't think bike frames are steel, rather some lighter alloy that you might not be able to weld.


I built a mild steel framed aluminium clad canopy for my Suzuki Jeep.  Took me 2 months of afternoons, too much money and taught me I'm a grinder not a welder  :rofl:
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 26,576 Plumbers Know Their Crap!!
Re: Any braze / welders in the house?
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2019, 07:00:09 PM »
Any idea what the root cause is?

Sorry if this is too personal a question, but I'm still stunned by a documentary I watched the weekend, long story short, who knew that a Keto diet could cure epilepsy in some cases...... :ahhh

Regarding the bike build plan, I have to second what was mentioned in the other thread, I don't think bike frames are steel, rather some lighter alloy that you might not be able to weld.


I built a mild steel framed aluminium clad canopy for my Suzuki Jeep.  Took me 2 months of afternoons, too much money and taught me I'm a grinder not a welder  :rofl:
On me? I have no clue, I’ve had so many tests done, I think it’s something that sits up on my left, your right side if in not mistaken, wherever the memory and physical actions take place,
   So of they were to attempt to remove it and didn’t do it right, I’d be wiped clean, and unlike an elephant I wouldn’t be able to get up and walk within hours, so I’ve said to leave it and I’d deal with it!

As far as the frame yeah some are aluminum, yeah some are very thin walled, and welded using some special welder since everything’s computerized now, but back in the day they used to be brazed, but they were like pipes that slid into a joint at all the connections, but on another forum simple welding is the way their saying to go, and these things are what they build from simple bike parts,.
JR

"The-Mad-Plumbarian" The Punisher Of Pipes!!! JR

 

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