Scale variations

[Reinier]

Facebook SAK Collectors

I see a few links to here

I like to refer people to MTo. Lots of topics have been discussed here - no need to do it all again on Facebook

[Huntsman]

 

[jazzbass]

FolderBeholder posted this thread: https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,82769.0.html that is of significant relevance to the discussion here. This is a great example of cellulose acetate butyrate (CAB) breakdown in early Elinox scales. The acetate is breaking down and producing acetic acid (i.e. vinegar), and that acid is tarnishing the nickel silver inlays on the knife. This is a mild-ish deterioration, and it doesn't look to have damaged the knife too much - yet.

This is an area where collectors of older knives like myself, FB, jnoxyd and other need to learn about plastic conservation. Honestly up until recently I didn't really think much about it and (naively) assumed that these plastics were stable and the ones that I had that were damaged had just lived difficult lives. I've just started doing in depth research on this, but fortunately there is a LOT of information about conservation of antique plastics. Hell, there's even a Wikipedia article on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_and_restoration_of_plastic_objects

I've just started thinking about plastic conservation for my collection, and have a ways to go. What I'm doing right now is:

• Limiting exposure to UV. Esp important for older cellulose nitrate knives from the 40s.
• Maintaining humidity control. Pretty easy for me, as I live in the US and my wife loves AC. RH stays around 50% in my house all year long.
• Limit exposure to water. I used to wash all knives in an ultrasonic bath when I got them, because if you've purchased many knives from eBay you'll know - many of them are disgustingly dirty. For modern knives it's not a problem, but anything 1975 and before I need to find a new way to clean.
  
• Limit exposure to high temps. The other part of my old cleaning process was water warmed to 120-130F. This was nice because the temps really helped loosen up all the grime in the knives. Turns out it also was probably the main factor in setting of autocatalytic reactions in several of my knives. Since it doesn't happen immediatly, I had no idea I was damaging the knife. But the results are pretty clear - a 50 yr old CAB knife I buy has minor tarnishing, I clean it with hot water, and 2 years later the scales are all but destroyed and the tools are rusty.
  
• Separate "problem" knives from the rest of the collection. Any knives experiencing obvious signs of breakdown (tarnishing emblems, cracking scales, etc) are being moved away from the main part of the collection and placed somewhere with good ventilation. These so-called "malignant plastics" will apparently destroy other collection items with their nitric acid/acetic acid out gassing if left in proximity.
  

That's just a start, though. I have several things I want to do in the next couple months:

• Find new methods to clean new additions to the collection without damaging them or setting off autocatalytic reactions
• Install fans to actively ventilate the main part of the collection. My knives are stored in drawers, so I'm thinking some sort of computer fan setup on the back of the cabinet to pull fresh air into the drawers.
• Install A-D strips to monitor acid levels in the environment. More info here: https://www.imagepermanenceinstitute.org/imaging/ad-strips
• Install humidity monitoring/notification sensors in the collection. You can build a wireless, low power temp/humidity sensor node from parts on Amazon for < $10.
• Look at moving certain knives (older CN scaled knives in particular) into some sort of lower temp storage. Indications are that lower temps helps slow the CN break down significantly.

More information for the curious:

• Cellulose Plastics at Getty Conservation Institute
• Canada.gov - Caring for Plastics and Rubbers
• Conservation and restoration of plastic objects

[xfile]

Great article JB !!! But now I see a picture of a strange SAK on the net,As shown in the pictures, it has a screwdriver,I think it should be produced before the 1920s through its tang stamp.But the question is, did Celluloid already exist in that era?So this is a SAK that makes me confused. Who can help me solve this mystery,thank you!!!

[jazzbass]

Looking at the scales and the tools (scissors especially), my guess is that this is a knife from the 20s/30s that was repaired in the late 40s. The scissors look a lot newer than the rest of the knife, and there’s no cut out above the corkscrew that was on the fiber scales and all early cellidor scales as well. Or it is a more modern repair using parts from a late 40s donor knife.

Repairs like this with tools from different eras are fairly common - esp in the 84mm line where there’s not the big change in parts and pin spacing in 1951.

[xfile]

Looking at the scales and the tools (scissors especially), my guess is that this is a knife from the 20s/30s that was repaired in the late 40s. The scissors look a lot newer than the rest of the knife, and there’s no cut out above the corkscrew that was on the fiber scales and all early cellidor scales as well. Or it is a more modern repair using parts from a late 40s donor knife.

Repairs like this with tools from different eras are fairly common - esp in the 84mm line where there’s not the big change in parts and pin spacing in 1951.

thank you very much JB! Did that kind of screwdriver last until the 1930s?

[kamakiri]

Isn’t this style of scale shield ~1951+?

[xfile]

Isn’t this style of scale shield ~1951+?

Yes, I just saw some inconsistencies, but some details are not analyzed in place. Thank you and JB

[jnoxyd]

What about flat screwdriver and bottle opener:

Sorry for the bad picture, I haven’t this knife, just picture.

[xfile]

What about flat screwdriver and bottle opener:
(Image removed from quote.)
Sorry for the bad picture, I haven’t this knife, just picture.

Fantastic!

[Zanza]

JAZZBASS  

[Rizio Il Ghiro]

Wow, what a knife jnoxyd!

[Reinier]

How about this one?



BLACK cellidor scales on a 1960s (?) Elinox knife. I think black scales were quite uncommon back then. I've never seen any other color than red and blue. Blue only twice, on knives owned by jnoxyd and Jazzbass (apart from the Fisherman's knives obviously).

The photo is 7.5 years old. I've never taken the time to investigate that SAK any further.

[39hotrod]

 

[Reinier]

I just noticed that one of my 74mm SAKs with celluloid tortoise scales is showing signs of deterioration. There is an oily, funny smelling residue on the scales. No shrinking though.
Interestingly enough I have an almost identical SAK that seems to be just fine.

[FolderBeholder]

I just want to bump this thread back up again. 
There's so much to appreciate (excellent photos) and so much to digest (detailed observations), that it deserves another look. 

[kamakiri]

13. New formula cellidor on a 1972 Huntsman. These new formula scales appear right around 1970 - they seem to show up exactly the same time the bail is dropped from the Victoria line. They suck compared to the old dark red cellidor. A brighter red, my suspicion is they are more like the 1960s Elinox cellidor formula (i.e. cheaper), albeit without the out-gassing issues. Still with nickel-silver inlays. The big thing with these early 1970s scales is they like to warp and peel up at the toothpick and tweezers end.

‘72 with a 4-loop CS? Doesn’t sound right to me.

[jazzbass]

%u201872 with a 4-loop CS? Doesn%u2019t sound right to me.

Oh, lord. This was just a quick thing I put together real quick because it was a nice day for photographs. IIRC what happened was this: the original picture had a 72 w/ 5 turn corkscrew in it. When I went to post I didn't like the way the knife was crooked in the shot and recomposed. In doing so I decided to swap out for what I think is a 74 Huntsman as it showed more of the "scale peel" of these era scales (NB: IRL the 74 peel is way worse than the 72. In camera it's hard to tell the difference). Swapped it out and forgot to update the text apparently. Mea culpa.

Gotta be honest, responses like this are why I don't share much here anymore. The "Vintage Knife" thread long stopped being about collectors showing off cool old knives and has become "Kamakiri corrects everyone on everything" - typically in a way that reads to me as dismissive and condescending.

[kamakiri]

Wow. Soooooorry.

I guess some of us are above being corrected.   

[enki_ck]

Wow. Soooooorry.

I guess some of us are above being corrected.   

And you think this kind of a reply is helpful?

Please, guys and gals, try to remain civil and respectful to each other. We already lost quite a few very knowledgeable members to the grim reaper and such unnecessary quarrels, and with each one this board dies a bit more. And I and many others invested much too much of ourselves into this board helping others to learn on SAKs too go through this again.

No one is above error, and there are different ways to communicate these, the tone, the words, ... Choose them wisely, read your post prior to posting and try to think how you would feel if someone spoke like this to you.

None of us know everything and we still learn from each other, and do so here, on the forum, through other members. So show respect to people who shared their knowledge so you and others could know the stuff you know now.

[FolderBeholder]

None of us know everything and we still learn from each other, and do so here, on the forum, through other members. So show respect to people who shared their knowledge so you and others could know the stuff you know now.

Thank you for writing this because I really appreciate everyone on this forum for all of their knowledge.  So much still yet to learn.
I don't want to see anyone put off by posts that they decide to spend their time elsewhere.  I speak for myself when I say I need and want you all to stay.

[VICMAN]

Please, guys and gals, try to remain civil and respectful to each other. We already lost quite a few very knowledgeable members to the grim reaper and such unnecessary quarrels, and with each one this board dies a bit more. And I and many others invested much too much of ourselves into this board helping others to learn on SAKs too go through this again.

No one is above error, and there are different ways to communicate these, the tone, the words, ... Choose them wisely, read your post prior to posting and try to think how you would feel if someone spoke like this to you.

None of us know everything and we still learn from each other, and do so here, on the forum, through other members. So show respect to people who shared their knowledge so you and others could know the stuff you know now.

 

[Rizio Il Ghiro]

  I really appreciate all the tips, pointers and knowledge to be found here.

[jnoxyd]

Oh no, Jazzbass, don't leave Vintage SAK Owners Club please!  We all love this place and I cannot imagine it without your posts.  Make Vintage SAK Owners Club  looking cool again!  I will show some interesting knives soon but for now 100+ years old pictures from Elsener (unfortunately not mine).

[kamakiri]

And you think this kind of a reply is helpful?

How else does one reply to being accused of being “dismissive and condescending” by someone who apologizes with a “mea culpa”?

Seriously, I don’t see what the big deal is with my post before that.

But I hear the underlying message loud and clear. 

[jnoxyd]

Hey guys, everyone has a different manner of communication, knowledge of the language (or google translate skills ) , education (technical or humanitarian), interests in collecting sak, etc.  I suggest you treat each other with respect and tolerance!  Personally, I do not mind that Kamakiri corrects me, only I am not always ready to solve his riddles  By the way, Kamakiri, that's a good name for your personal thread "Riddles from Kamakiri", come on, I'm participating.
 

[kamakiri]

Hey guys, everyone has a different manner of communication, knowledge of the language (or google translate skills ) , education (technical or humanitarian), interests in collecting sak, etc.  I suggest you treat each other with respect and tolerance!  Personally, I do not mind that Kamakiri corrects me, only I am not always ready to solve his riddles  By the way, Kamakiri, that's a good name for your personal thread "Riddles from Kamakiri", come on, I'm participating.

Well I think you are correct on several counts. And I do think people have varying tolerances to everything...including my ‘guessing games’. If the mods agree, I would be open to moving all posts from the Vintage thread about the 1973 knives and moving them all to a new thread titled “1973?”

Honesty, my question about the ‘72 Huntsman was sincere. Maybe it was something I didn’t know or understand. If my intent was to irritate or anger or correct for the sake of correcting, I would have pointed out the thing I think is likely a simple error or even a typo: The Rütli knife is 1991 and not 1989 as posted.

My apologies to ALL for the drama and irritation.

My apologies to jazzbass for detracting from his thread. I will be more mindful before posting any more corrections.

[xfile]

Oh no, Jazzbass, don't leave Vintage SAK Owners Club please!  We all love this place and I cannot imagine it without your posts.  Make Vintage SAK Owners Club  looking cool again!  I will show some interesting knives soon but for now 100+ years old pictures from Elsener (unfortunately not mine).

That's right. I think this post is the most wonderful one in the forum, Jazzbass shares a lot of exciting and interesting knowledge,I look forward to more

[Aloha]

My apologies to ALL for the drama and irritation.

My apologies to jazzbass for detracting from his thread. I will be more mindful before posting any more corrections.

Very much appreciated.  You ALL bring a lot to the table and ANYONE of you will be missed if you didn't contribute to this thread or any thread where YOUR vast knowledge is needed and very much appreciated.

Being mindful is something we can all strive to be better at. 

Lets get back to the amazing pictures and information.  I swear my SAK CRED has ranked off the charts reading thru these type threads exponentially.  I've got miles and miles to go yet so keep posting and keep the information and lively conversations flowing albeit mindfully as KAMIKURI mentions. 

So what's next?    

   

[VICMAN]

Very much appreciated.  You ALL bring a lot to the table and ANYONE of you will be missed if you didn't contribute to this thread or any thread where YOUR vast knowledge is needed and very much appreciated.

Being mindful is something we can all strive to be better at.