RIT dye?

[Gerhard Gerber]

Talked my friend into a Native 5 Salt, he loves the knife already but the yellow is not ideal.....

I know they use RIT dye on Spyderco scales, but we can't buy it here, so I'd like to know exactly which dye so we can look for something similar.
RIT  DyeMore for Synthetics?

[chewbacca]

I read an article where a gent used Jacquard iDye Poly to dye som Ontario Rat Scales from pink to red.  Maybe you can find this brand.

[Kampfer]

Use DyeMore for Synthetics, the normal ones dont work

[WrenchHeadFox]

Greetings Gerhard, 
 
Just signed up here to get some help, but since I actually know a lot about dyeing I thought I'd first give some where I can! 
 
Different synthetics will require different types of dyes and dyeing processes. RIT tends to attempt to circumvent this by putting a ton of different dyes into one bottle. The results are less than ideal, though it does remove some of the guesswork. 
 
I looked up the knife you're working with, and according to Spyderco, the handles are FRN - [glass] Fiber Reinforced Nylon. Therefore, you want a dye which will adhere well to nylon. 
 
Nylon is dyed via an acid dyeing process, same as wool and silk. You need an acid dye and an acid to fasten the dye to the medium. Fortunately, this type of dye is also one of the least expensive! 
 
I personally use Aljo Dyes, but that is because they are headquartered in NYC, and living in Brooklyn I can easily ride my bike there and pick a dye in person. I have also used Dharma dyes and Jaquard dyes before without any issues. I am not affiliated with any of these companies and I personally would get whichever you can find the cheapest. You'll also need white vinegar (acetic acid), citric acid, or ascorbic acid to fasten the dye. 
 
Here's another fun fact! Acid dyes are often used in the coloring of foods. One such is Kool Aid. The small packets of Kool Aid (which have no sugar and direct you to add your own) are in fact only an acid dye, citric acid, and artificial flavor. In a pinch (and also not in a pinch) I have successfully used these packets to permanently dye nylon garments, as their ratio of dye to acid is essentially perfect. You could apply this to the knife scales as well! If you go this route, please note that only the blue and red are particularly effective in my experience. Purple turns out kinda brown, green works but you need to use a ton of it. Red is definitely most effective, followed by blue. Considering you can pick them up at basically any grocery store for around a quarter each, it's an excellent economic option. You could always try red or blue and see how it turns out, and if you hate it, dyeing black or another very dark color over later would work fine. Keep in mind that the original color will change the final color some, so blue will [likely] be greenish-blue, and red will [likely] be slightly orange. When taking this route, follow the same process you would for any other acid dye. Here's Aljo's page with their directions on the process: http://www.aljodye.com/usage_silk.html 
DO NOT use the Kool Aid with sugar already in it (either liquid drinks or the powder that comes in a big round container). Only use the small packets without any sugar. 
 
Good luck and happy dyeing!

[WrenchHeadFox]

Hmm, seems with time passing I can no longer edit the above post? Well, I just wanted to add that the more dye you use, the darker your color will be. This goes both for commercial dyes as well as Kool Aid. It's entirely possible to dye, check, and dye more if you want to go darker. Obviously, you can't go lighter once dyed.

[Aloha]

Outstanding info WrenchHeadFox 

[comis]

Wow, great info WrenchHeadFox!  Thank you!

If I may tag along for another quick question, any suggestion on how best to dye Swiss army knives scales?  I think they are made of cellidor.

[WrenchHeadFox]

Greetings comis, 
 
I've never worked with cellidor but the quick research I've done shows this is a trade name for cellulose acetate butyrate (CAB). Again, being a compound I have never worked with, I can advise but make no guarantees. Everything I read in my quick research advises that acetates should follow the same process for dyeing as polyester, which I have dyed many times. If you know anything about polyester, it is intended to be extremely stain resistant. That also translates to difficult to dye. In fact, as far as I know, the only method to dye polyester is a disperse dye. Disperse dyeing is expensive, and highly toxic, so to do it you need a dedicated dyeing vessel (you don't wanna make pasta in that pot again) and ventilation is recommended. If you want to take this route, you'll need to find a disperse dye listed as compatible with acetate (which as far as I know should be any disperse dye[?]), you'll need a polydeveloper to get the dye to properly adhere, you'll need a washing agent to remove the excess dye (I use synthrapol, but you can get away using dish soap or laundry detergent if you're only doing this once), and you'll need the dedicated stainless or ceramic vessel. In the end, changing the colors of your scales will probably range in the $10-20 price. That seems steep to me, but I understand that it's not by any means cost prohibitive. 
 
Beware of two things:
1) My research online says only some SAK scales are CAB; many are in fact nylon. Fortunately, disperse dye *will* color nylon - so if you don't know which it is, disperse dye will handle both (while a traditional acid dye won't work on the acetate), though the disperse dye is a tad overkill for nylon.
2) I am unsure what the specific chemical properties of CAB are. I'm 99% sure I've given correct advice on how to change the color of those scale above, however I do not know what affect boiling temperatures might have on the plastic. Nylon is super tolerant, is CAB? Or will it get soft and distort and you'll end up with warped scales? Modder beware, this is at your own risk (as I'm sure I needn't say)!

Hope this helps.
 

[Don Pablo]

Hi, WrenchHeadFox.
Thanks for your extremely in-depth analysis!

As for your two questions at the end:
It's easy to tell nylon from celidor.
Celidor scales are smooth, shiny and have a metal inlaid logo.
Nylon scales have a rough matte surface and a hot-stamped logo.

Unfortunately Celidor scales inevitably warp when exposed to hot temperatures. 
Is there a way to dye them cold?

[WrenchHeadFox]

Hi, WrenchHeadFox.
Thanks for your extremely in-depth analysis!

As for your two questions at the end:
It's easy to tell nylon from celidor.
Celidor scales are smooth, shiny and have a metal inlaid logo.
Nylon scales have a rough matte surface and a hot-stamped logo.

Unfortunately Celidor scales inevitably warp when exposed to hot temperatures. 
Is there a way to dye them cold?

Very happy to help, Don Pablo. 
 
That's unfortunate about the warping, but not a shock to me. Do you happen to know what temperature the warping occurs? 
 
Natural fibers (hemp, cotton, jute, etc) use a "cold dyeing" process, but that's kinda a misnomer. Yeah, it's colder than a boiling vat, but it's still around 160 degrees F... well above temperatures you want to stick your hand in. 
 
The temperature aspect is critical to the disperse dyeing process, as I understand it you're expanding the molecular structure with the heat, and trapping tiny particles of dye in between the molecules when it cools down. This is something I was told once, and haven't been able to find an independent confirmation on, so that take with a grain of salt. 
Whether that's the case or not, the temperature aspect is -still- critical. 
 
Perhaps dye is the wrong route with CAB. How about a can of Montana brand spray paint, or appliance epoxy?

[Don Pablo]

Very happy to help, Don Pablo. 
 
That's unfortunate about the warping, but not a shock to me. Do you happen to know what temperature the warping occurs? 
 
Natural fibers (hemp, cotton, jute, etc) use a "cold dyeing" process, but that's kinda a misnomer. Yeah, it's colder than a boiling vat, but it's still around 160 degrees F... well above temperatures you want to stick your hand in. 
 
The temperature aspect is critical to the disperse dyeing process, as I understand it you're expanding the molecular structure with the heat, and trapping tiny particles of dye in between the molecules when it cools down. This is something I was told once, and haven't been able to find an independent confirmation on, so that take with a grain of salt. 
Whether that's the case or not, the temperature aspect is -still- critical. 
 
Perhaps dye is the wrong route with CAB. How about a can of Montana brand spray paint, or appliance epoxy?

I can't believe how comprehensive SAK-wielders are, but because of that I can tell you that the warping temperature is at least 70°C / 158°F, as per The Dishwasher Test. https://www.swissarmyknights.com/articles/2009/april-2009/426-urban-sak-myth

[WrenchHeadFox]

I can't believe how comprehensive SAK-wielders are, but because of that I can tell you that the warping temperature is at least 70°C / 158°F, as per The Dishwasher Test. https://www.swissarmyknights.com/articles/2009/april-2009/426-urban-sak-myth

 
 
Good info, but info which unfortunately rules out any dyeing process that I am aware of.

[Don Pablo]

Thanks for the write-up again.

[comis]

WrenchHeadFox, really want to thank you again for sharing your expertise on the subject matter.  Given the 70C constrain (which I occur from modding experience) and the highly toxic routine, it sounds like there is no easy way out for dying the regular cellidor scales.

I have zero experience when it comes to dye, and if we have a way to paint over a transparent cellidor scale(from the inside), even though the regular acid method with FRN will not work as well on cellidor, would it still be a better option than say acrylic paint?(some comments on interweb say oil-based paint will not work well in a long run with polyster)?  I just have no idea how weak is the 'dye' when we say it won't work well, will it peal by itself or not?

[WrenchHeadFox]

comis, 
 
Unfortunately, it's not a case of "will not work as well as" but a case of "will not work at all." If you acid dye acetate, when you remove it from the bath and rinse it off, any and all color will run off. It simply will not stick at all. This is besides the fact that both methods will demand temperatures beyond what the scales can handle without damage. If you have a transparent scale, taking it off and painting it from the inside sounds like a great option for changing the color and avoiding chipped paint. I personally would just take the scales off and hit them with a coat of high-quality primer and then a high-quality spray paint, but I know a lot more about dye than I do about paint. 
 
Sorry for the bad news, hope this helps some anyway. 

[comis]

comis, 
 
Unfortunately, it's not a case of "will not work as well as" but a case of "will not work at all." If you acid dye acetate, when you remove it from the bath and rinse it off, any and all color will run off. It simply will not stick at all. This is besides the fact that both methods will demand temperatures beyond what the scales can handle without damage. If you have a transparent scale, taking it off and painting it from the inside sounds like a great option for changing the color and avoiding chipped paint. I personally would just take the scales off and hit them with a coat of high-quality primer and then a high-quality spray paint, but I know a lot more about dye than I do about paint. 
 
Sorry for the bad news, hope this helps some anyway. 

Ah, that's right, completely forgotten the temp issue for the dying process, thank you!

[Aloha]

Just bumping this in case anyone has missed all the great info within. 

[pomsbz]

I just used Rit Dyemore Synthetic on my my SAK Nylon scales. Seems to have worked well but it doesn't go in very deep, a rub of some sandpaper and it's back to red. Perhaps I should have boiled it in the dye for longer.

[SteveC]

Some great info here, thanks for posting WHF   

Do you think Kool Aid would dye jigged bone  ?

[WrenchHeadFox]

Some great info here, thanks for posting WHF   

Do you think Kool Aid would dye jigged bone  ?

Greetings SteveC...

Never tried dyeing bone, but bone is mostly collagen if I am not mistaken. I believe collagen is a polyamide and Kool Aid when used as a dye, or other acid dyes, should adhere well to all polyamides to the best of my knowledge. I'd bet money that you can dye bone with Kool Aid. Please let us know your results if you do try! Hope this helps.

WHF

[comis]

Greetings SteveC...

Never tried dyeing bone, but bone is mostly collagen if I am not mistaken. I believe collagen is a polyamide and Kool Aid when used as a dye, or other acid dyes, should adhere well to all polyamides to the best of my knowledge. I'd bet money that you can dye bone with Kool Aid. Please let us know your results if you do try! Hope this helps.

WHF

 

[SirVicaLot]

Thanks for all the detailed information, WHF! 

[PitCarver]

I've seen folks use Kool aid to dye jigged bone with excellent results.
 I used To  to dye a red bone Stockman to a brown, which I much prefer.
 

Some great info here, thanks for posting WHF   

Do you think Kool Aid would dye jigged bone  ?

[WrenchHeadFox]

I've seen folks use Kool aid to dye jigged bone with excellent results.
 I used To  to dye a red bone Stockman to a brown, which I much prefer.
 

That's awesome, thank you for sharing PitCarver!