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Leatherman FREE T4 vs Victorinox Pioneer X and Super Tinker 865

No Life Club Posts: 3,034
Re: Leatherman FREE T4 vs Victorinox Pioneer X and Super Tinker
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2019, 08:51:49 PM »

Instagram: @lordvicalot
Global Moderator Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here... Posts: 44,250
Re: Leatherman FREE T4 vs Victorinox Pioneer X and Super Tinker
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2019, 10:37:28 PM »
Play nice fellas ! 
No Life Club Posts: 3,034
Re: Leatherman FREE T4 vs Victorinox Pioneer X and Super Tinker
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2019, 12:03:18 AM »
Sorry Steve, didn‘t mean to cause trouble!  :-\ :hatsoff:

Instagram: @lordvicalot
Hero Member Posts: 559
Re: Leatherman FREE T4 vs Victorinox Pioneer X and Super Tinker
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2019, 03:45:01 AM »
I agree with SirVicaLot.

I would even go as far as saying Sidekick/Wingman is a better value at $60. But rebar for $10 more would also be wise.

I paid $70 for my Swisschamp and that would put poor T4 to shame.
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 10,548 Man of Multiple MultiTool Manufacturers
Re: Leatherman FREE T4 vs Victorinox Pioneer X and Super Tinker
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2019, 05:44:28 AM »
Thank you for the objective comparison, smiller! Very well stated and thought out.

I think the scores are about where they should be by experience with the three tools in hand/use. :iagree:

Sure, I could input personal preference if I wanted, but it wouldn't make sense, because I own(and use) too many of so many different brands (and to a larger extent models) of tools. A tool isn't bad, because it isn't exactly what someone has gotten used to and become fond of.

Side note:
If legality is an issue, then create a separate thread grading the tools based off of that criteria and your personal experience using each tool(where it can be legally done so).
/

Pocket clips, tool steel(which drivers strip easier under torque/damage the frame/etc), locking mechanism(this is an important safety feature many people would not go without if legality weren't an issue), position of drivers(short t-handle/non-locking inline/locking inline), construction(brass pins/bushings or sex bolts), one-hand vs. two hand deployment, etc are all important factors that cannot be dismissed as advantages(or on the flip-side; disadvantages to some) to many users.

Price-wise? They're close enough not to make that a serious consideration in my opinion. I spend $10 a day on coffee and lunch. But, to each their own. Fact is US manufacturing just costs more in general. Why do you think most good watch brands are made(at least 51% anyway) in Switzerland? Could Tag Heuer make the same watch in the US for the same price? No, so why expect the MultiTool industry to be exempt.

Anyway. That's my $0.02. Nothing personal.

Pontificating particularly pious positions pertaining to polymorphic paraphernalia. G-Man.
No Life Club Posts: 2,051
Re: Leatherman FREE T4 vs Victorinox Pioneer X and Super Tinker
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2019, 09:41:20 AM »
Thank you for the objective comparison, smiller! Very well stated and thought out.

I think the scores are about where they should be by experience with the three tools in hand/use. :iagree:

Sure, I could input personal preference if I wanted, but it wouldn't make sense, because I own(and use) too many of so many different brands (and to a larger extent models) of tools. A tool isn't bad, because it isn't exactly what someone has gotten used to and become fond of.

Side note:
If legality is an issue, then create a separate thread grading the tools based off of that criteria and your personal experience using each tool(where it can be legally done so).
/

Pocket clips, tool steel(which drivers strip easier under torque/damage the frame/etc), locking mechanism(this is an important safety feature many people would not go without if legality weren't an issue), position of drivers(short t-handle/non-locking inline/locking inline), construction(brass pins/bushings or sex bolts), one-hand vs. two hand deployment, etc are all important factors that cannot be dismissed as advantages(or on the flip-side; disadvantages to some) to many users.

Price-wise? They're close enough not to make that a serious consideration in my opinion. I spend $10 a day on coffee and lunch. But, to each their own. Fact is US manufacturing just costs more in general. Why do you think most good watch brands are made(at least 51% anyway) in Switzerland? Could Tag Heuer make the same watch in the US for the same price? No, so why expect the MultiTool industry to be exempt.

Anyway. That's my $0.02. Nothing personal.

I'd guess that the general cost of Swiss manufacture is considerably higher than US manufacture and for good reason. My own experience is that I'd prefer to pay the extra and am delighted when I get that quality for less (SAK). I've not been impressed by US manufactured quality and am certainly not willing to pay any extra for it.

"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
No Life Club Posts: 3,034
Re: Leatherman FREE T4 vs Victorinox Pioneer X and Super Tinker
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2019, 03:58:14 PM »
Fact is US manufacturing just costs more in general. Why do you think most good watch brands are made(at least 51% anyway) in Switzerland? Could Tag Heuer make the same watch in the US for the same price? No, so why expect the MultiTool industry to be exempt.


This is not necessarily true. It depends on which country you compare it with.I did some research because I was interested in the topic and this is what I found:
The average production costs in Switzerland compared to the US are about 2 to 3 times higher. Swiss labor costs are among the highest in Europe. This is of course a general snapshot, not a specific industry.

To stay with the example with the watches, I would like to make an educated guess on what the articles I read talked about. Switzerland has a history of watch manufacturing since the 1600's. The have been contested multiple times over those 400 years, and lost considerable market margins to US and Japanese companies. But they always came back with new inventions, like the waterproof casing.

I am pretty sure that Switzerland has schools or universities with specific and detailed knowledge, that would we hard to find anywhere else. This leads to a highly skilled workforce, exactly what companies that produce precision timepieces need.
Here is a quote from one of the articles: "The workforce talent and manufacturing quality in Switzerland are top-flight. The country has a large stock of highly skilled workers, and the value-add to their economy through their manufacturing industry is one of the highest in the world." ... "Although Swiss costs of production and a strong franc do pose some risks, the country has capitalized on its workforce advantages as well as its stable political environment to build one of the strongest manufacturing industries in the world."

So even though production costs are very high, companies still choose to produce in Switzerland because of the highly skilled workforce.

If someone is interested in the links to read for themselves let me know and I send them via PM.

Sorry for the off-topic post, back to topic  :ahhh

Instagram: @lordvicalot
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 10,548 Man of Multiple MultiTool Manufacturers
Re: Leatherman FREE T4 vs Victorinox Pioneer X and Super Tinker
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2019, 06:21:26 PM »
So you're saying it would cost LESS to make Swiss quality products in the US, if I'm reading this correctly?

Please explain. Because labor costs alone are only a small part in a chain of expenses involved with manufacturing and distribution.


Edit: You're right. This is an irrelevant detour in the thread.
If I hadn't of mentioned production costs, would you still have an issue with my previous post?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 06:39:31 PM by gerleatherberman »

Pontificating particularly pious positions pertaining to polymorphic paraphernalia. G-Man.
Sr. Member Posts: 400
Re: Leatherman FREE T4 vs Victorinox Pioneer X and Super Tinker
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2019, 06:53:36 PM »
So you're saying it would cost LESS to make Swiss quality products in the US, if I'm reading this correctly?

Please explain. Because labor costs alone are only a small part in a chain of expenses involved with manufacturing and distribution.


Edit: You're right. This is an irrelevant detour in the thread.
If I hadn't of mentioned production costs, would you still have an issue with my previous post?

I agree with your point that if it weren't for regional laws, features like OHO, locks, and even pocket clips would be more desirable across the world.  Maybe not for everyone - as pocket clips create hot spots and hangups for some people, as an example.  But many people in those areas would learn to appreciate these features as others do. 
No Life Club Posts: 3,034
Re: Leatherman FREE T4 vs Victorinox Pioneer X and Super Tinker
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2019, 07:22:22 PM »
So you're saying it would cost LESS to make Swiss quality products in the US, if I'm reading this correctly?

Please explain. Because labor costs alone are only a small part in a chain of expenses involved with manufacturing and distribution.


Edit: You're right. This is an irrelevant detour in the thread.
If I hadn't of mentioned production costs, would you still have an issue with my previous post?

I have no issue with your post, I just wanted to point out that there are some countries with higher labor costs than the US, and that companies still produce there for several reasons. Including, but not limited to, skill set of the workforce. Shipping cost and logistics is a whole new thing  :ahhh

Instagram: @lordvicalot
No Life Club Posts: 4,925
Re: Leatherman FREE T4 vs Victorinox Pioneer X and Super Tinker
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2019, 07:39:58 PM »
Even though SAKs are good tools, there is always room for improvement. So I appreciate LM‘s attempt to step out of their comfort zone and try something new. I also get that on your first try you don‘t get it all right.
The issue for me is, that the tools they delivered are questionable at best.

It feels like the T4 was designed by a hipster that used a hammer once in his life. Now he thinks he can design a tool. It doesn‘t feel like people that use MT‘s everyday had any say in the outcome. Bulky design, plastic inserts, ridiculous short file that cannot decide if it wants to be a nail file or metal / wood file, an awl that with a screwdriver tip (  ??? ), scissors that „hang up“ during continues cutting, and so on.

It just feels like it could have used another year of R&D, but someone decided to throw it in the market, slap a price on that is nowhere justified and see what happens. The T4 costs $60 on LM‘s website. For that amount I can get an Evo S557, a Deluxe Tinker (-$10), or a Ranger (-$7). All of which have far more tools and utility. Heck, for $10 more you can get a Rebar!  :twak:

LM, I had such high hopes for the T series. What happened?  :dunno:

That's a bit harsh on the T4 in my opinion.

Yes it's a bit bulky, it has plastic inserts and a short file, but...

The file, even though it's short, is quite capable. And for some jobs, its short/wide design works better than the longer files on other tools.

And the bulky look is not without its charm, but that's a matter of taste (I think it's quite a looker, just like the Free P4, both tools look very nice on pics in my opinion). And the plastic inserts bothered me a bit at first, but they feel very sturdy and quite good in hand.

And the locking tools are a nice extra, but maybe not really necessary on a tool that size (I've never needed locking tools on a SAK).

But, having said all this, I still find myself grabbing for my Swisschamp when I go out the door, and not my T4...  :think:

Fact is that it's hard to beat SAKs at their own game, especially considering how relatively cheap they are.  I mean, I love my Wenger SAKs (and Vic Delémonts) yet I find it very hard to justify their retail price vs the one on their Victorinox counterparts.

Just my 2 cents.

Thank you Smiller43147 for the great write up  :2tu:.
No Life Club Posts: 3,034
Re: Leatherman FREE T4 vs Victorinox Pioneer X and Super Tinker
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2019, 07:59:50 PM »
I guess I am being so harsh because that tool really disappointed me. I was looking forward to it. Finally getting someone that gets Victorinox off their behinds, and challenge them. Maybe that will happen with a T4 2.0  :dunno:

Instagram: @lordvicalot
No Life Club Posts: 4,925
Re: Leatherman FREE T4 vs Victorinox Pioneer X and Super Tinker
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2019, 09:25:44 PM »
I guess I am being so harsh because that tool really disappointed me. I was looking forward to it. Finally getting someone that gets Victorinox off their behinds, and challenge them. Maybe that will happen with a T4 2.0  :dunno:

I hear what you're saying mate  :salute:

If you were expecting a true contender for the SAK, it's normal that you're disappointed.  But even if they failed at "waking up" Victorinox, the T4 is still quite a nice pocket knife on its own in my opinion.

It's a bit like the rookie of the year vs the World Champion from the last xx years  :D.

And like you said, let's hope that they will get it right on the next version  :dd:.

 :cheers:
No Life Club Posts: 3,034
Re: Leatherman FREE T4 vs Victorinox Pioneer X and Super Tinker
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2019, 10:52:04 PM »
I hope so. Looking forward to it  :popcorn: :cheers:

Instagram: @lordvicalot
Sr. Member Posts: 400
Re: Leatherman FREE T4 vs Victorinox Pioneer X and Super Tinker
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2020, 03:44:50 AM »
While we've covered the most important tools IMHO we're not finished yet.
Can openers.  While this tool is growing less important as pull tabs become the norm, there are still cans without them.  Also, as pomsbz pointed out recently in this thread [size=78%]https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,83541.0.html[/size] the can opener is a "great metal finger nail".  And as noted above, can be used as a phillips driver.
But let's restrict ourselves to the stated function of opening cans.  The Victorinox safety can opener is tops.  While others may be faster, this design has plenty of leverage for that first puncture and will open any can.
The T4 does not have this feature.


So 2's for the SAKs, and a 0 to the T4.


Score so far: T4 8, ST 11, PX 11.5

As I was looking at the LM website considering a purchase if a knife based MT where the knife takes center stage (rather than my usual EDC SAK where it blends in with the rest of the tool)... Suddenly - this bothered me more than before.  It renders the LM unsuitable for outdoor/camping use in my kit. That means that I can't take it camping, and I can't take it to most cities, and I can't take it to Europe with me.   :o


In my mind, it just became less desirable to me - not because of the workmanship or the quality... but because of versatility. 
Sr. Member Posts: 400
No Life Club Posts: 3,034
Re: Leatherman FREE T4 vs Victorinox Pioneer X and Super Tinker
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2020, 09:09:03 PM »
Hm interesting. The awl looks kinda short, but it is pointy! I like the bit holder. Will have to wait for more information and photos  :popcorn:

Instagram: @lordvicalot
Full Member Posts: 140
Re: Leatherman FREE T4 vs Victorinox Pioneer X and Super Tinker
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2020, 08:38:01 PM »
Look at the juice series, a lot of love - hate relationships there, the T-4 is everything the juice wasnt, Has a set of basic tools with longer reach but no pliers. Juice can opener and awl were always points of contention, no can opener on the T-series but awl is also a long reach flat head, juice was always criticized about 3 flat heads with no reach. I would like to see a T-4x that has a serrated blade similar to the one on the side kick replacing the awl. Ive bought the T series and am carrying a T-4 with a 2nd gen wave, good complementary set up indeed, Now i have an awl and a long reach phillips, bigger scissors etc. I can safely say i have never used a can opener on a multi tool to open a can, always had some type of sak. But i always carry a large version of the p-38 can opener on me. Would love to see some type of mini P series with juice sized pliers and a bit driver slot for the flat bits, another serrated blade and scissors etc. just my rant/rambling thoughts,but did you notice how lame the Leatherman Rev turned out to be, tried to make a cheaper tool that flopped. I could afford to buy my T series on the secondary market but no way i will shell out 140 for a P-4.
Hero Member Posts: 548
Re: Leatherman FREE T4 vs Victorinox Pioneer X and Super Tinker
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2020, 08:56:12 PM »
 It's very hard to design something better than Victorinox in the SAK category. Not only do they have a good and slim design they've been making them so long that the quality is high and the price is relatively inexpensive for the utility and quality you get. A few companies like Boker, Swiza, and Leatherman have tried and their products in that category usually have less tools for more money. Even if they come up with some novel design implementation the consumer is forced to pay more money for something unproven and not demonstrably better, that's a hard way to win marketshare.

 Leatherman created its own category with its multiple-tool plier based design and did that better than anyone else(arguably). That's what companies should focus on instead of trying to beat Victorinox at what they've been doing for more than a 100 years.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 09:02:28 PM by gregpost »
No Life Club Posts: 1,378
Re: Leatherman FREE T4 vs Victorinox Pioneer X and Super Tinker
« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2020, 11:39:42 PM »
Nice review  :tu:

"If only simple wasn't so hard" - me
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).

 

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