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Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone? 2469

No Life Club Posts: 1,522
Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« on: February 23, 2020, 03:37:07 AM »
Yesterday I was for reason suddenly thinking about making a tiny EDC screwdriver. I thought this tiny flat concept might be fun to check out. So I did - with ISO standard PH screwdriver geometry just cut somewhat flat on two sides.

Sizewise it is 19mm or 3/4" across, and 3mm or <1/8" thick. And it weighs just 2 grams. Might be a nice one for coin pockets in wallets or similar. Or maybe a keychain thing which also cover the sharpest flat driver when not in use - then the weight is about 3 grams. (The flat drive corners are a bit rounded as well to reduce cut risk).

So very small and very light, both of which are big positives. But while most screws are not in very tight spaces, or in deep recesses, quite a few screws are exactly that - and this wont work for those. And the ergonomics means it is basically an emergency screwdriver only. Then again, with that size one you'd likely have along.

If it were to go ahead it would seem natural to make it in hardened stainless steel which would also make it fairly expensive for what it is.

So I'm a bit on the fence about this thing overall... Anyone out there who would appreciate a small thingy like this? Possibly with a large coin driver instead of the small flat driver? (For cameras, tripods and whatnot).

(I threw in some standard size 1/4" bits as size references).

"If only simple wasn't so hard" - me
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
No Life Club Posts: 4,501 Apparently it is possible to have too many tools;)
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2020, 04:57:22 AM »
Just a suggestion:  make the centre hole a 1/4" hex so it could be used as a bit driver as well (might as well add more functionality)

babola: "Enjoy your tools and don't be afraid to air your opinion and feelings here, but do it in courteous and respectable way toward others, of course."
No Life Club Posts: 1,522
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2020, 05:16:11 AM »
Just a suggestion:  make the centre hole a 1/4" hex so it could be used as a bit driver as well (might as well add more functionality)

I knew someone would suggest that :)

The center area of this one is just 8mm across - a 1/4" hex is 7.3mm across at its widest. There just isn't enough material to do it. Not even comfortably enough for a 4mm hex. This thing is small.

Edit: One could of course make it bigger to accomodate that, but that size increase would be in direct conflict with the core focus on a tiny 4 head screwdriver. It is a balance to be made whether diminshing the key concept with additional features is worth it. I considered a center hex hole earlier, including a smaller 4mm hex. However as it wouldn't have a back stop to properly hold bits anyway I didn't think such a half feature would justify the additional size, weight and cost.

And on a more philosophical level a key design rule for me is that if there is a function on a tool it should work properly. Which is in part why I struggle with this thing; the reach creates limitations from being a fully functional screwdriver. Then again this is clearly a happenstance tightening or emergency driver - which key feature is being easy to keep around.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 07:17:41 AM by Vidar »

"If only simple wasn't so hard" - me
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
No Life Club Posts: 3,974
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2020, 02:33:53 AM »
Similar to Victorinox thing? I don't have part number handy to find a pic.


Apparently called "Quattro Bit"

No Life Club Posts: 1,522
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2020, 08:38:16 AM »
Similar to Victorinox thing? I don't have part number handy to find a pic.

Apparently called "Quattro Bit"

Thank you for that - I wasn't aware of that one at all. It seems to be belong inside a card or something.

Yes, very similar concept. That one seems to be a bit larger and thinner, but hard to tell just from pictures. Not really important though - there doesn't seem to be much interest in such a thing anyway. Thus I figure I'll just make a few for myself so the work hasn't been total waste of time and call it the day.  :cheers:

"If only simple wasn't so hard" - me
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,600 Yoo-hoo, big summer blowout!
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2020, 11:19:48 AM »
Thank you for that - I wasn't aware of that one at all. It seems to be belong inside a card or something.

Yes, very similar concept. That one seems to be a bit larger and thinner, but hard to tell just from pictures. Not really important though - there doesn't seem to be much interest in such a thing anyway. Thus I figure I'll just make a few for myself so the work hasn't been total waste of time and call it the day.  :cheers:
I have one at home. I think it's 2-3 cm square and something like 1.5mm thick.

I think yours would fit on a keychain better and be less likely to damage screws due to how 3D it is. Very practical, I love it!
Only change I could possibly suggest is the larger Phillips could be pozidriv, as here we use Phillips for small screws and pozidriv for large screws. And I hate that! Stick with one or the other! :facepalm:

Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!
No Life Club Posts: 1,522
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2020, 11:44:00 AM »
I have one at home. I think it's 2-3 cm square and something like 1.5mm thick.

I think yours would fit on a keychain better and be less likely to damage screws due to how 3D it is. Very practical, I love it!
Only change I could possibly suggest is the larger Phillips could be pozidriv, as here we use Phillips for small screws and pozidriv for large screws. And I hate that! Stick with one or the other! :facepalm:

Well, then there is a fair difference in and sturdiness. We'll see. I'll make one or three and see how it feels.

The logic with Phillips rather than Pozidrive is that in a pinch Phillips can be forced into use on Pozidrive, while the other way around doesn't works less well.  Around here it seems to be totally random, although I appreciate seeing more and more Torx. (And then they introduced Torx plus and what not - lots of standards = no standards...)

"If only simple wasn't so hard" - me
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,600 Yoo-hoo, big summer blowout!
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2020, 11:48:47 AM »
Well, then there is a fair difference in and sturdiness. We'll see. I'll make one or three and see how it feels.

The logic with Phillips rather than Pozidrive is that in a pinch Phillips can be forced into use on Pozidrive, while the other way around doesn't works less well.  Around here it seems to be totally random, although I appreciate seeing more and more Torx. (And then they introduced Torx plus and what not - lots of standards = no standards...)
Standards?

Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!
No Life Club Posts: 1,522
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2020, 01:25:40 PM »
Standards?
(Image removed from quote.)

Yes, that pretty covers it!  :cheers:

Quite often a substandard standard is preferable to a mess of more/ no standards.

Edit: Not really helped by every country and area having their own standardization institutes. While those largely just rubber stamp each other sometimes they don't - and then you end up with Japanese screwdrivers which are just that little bit too different from PH and PZ to always fit. Not to mention sockets sets where the major international standards decided on different size steps so we all have to have almost every conceivable size in metric for instance.  :dunno:

"If only simple wasn't so hard" - me
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 17,515 I'm not a pessimist, I'm an experienced optimist!
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2020, 04:06:57 PM »
Way too small for me, buddy. I'd need another tool to grip it and get purchase on it, which kind of defeats the purpose. I can't think of any time recently that I turned a screw that was surface mounted, and so loose that this would have been useful.



The cantankerous but occasionally useful member, formally known as 50ft-trad
No Life Club Posts: 1,522
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2020, 08:26:42 PM »
Way too small for me, buddy. I'd need another tool to grip it and get purchase on it, which kind of defeats the purpose. I can't think of any time recently that I turned a screw that was surface mounted, and so loose that this would have been useful.

You might very well be right about that. The size thing is a balance act - larger would be better of course, but would also require more turning space above the screw.

I choose 19mm in part because I have some screwdriver laying around here with a ø19mm diameter handle, and that seems to have the torque work okish for most things. On the usability side I'm primarily concerned about  getting a proper down pressure, and not shredding the fingers on that small flat driver. Thus maybe change that small one to a coin driver style.

Anyway, I'll get some hands on experience once I made one. Maybe it should be larger, maybe it should be canned, maybe I accidentally make it into something great or entirely different. (It is called "trial and error" for a reason - "trial and success" never really resonated I guess?)

"If only simple wasn't so hard" - me
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
No Life Club Posts: 4,993
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2020, 09:19:19 PM »
I think it’s a good idea. Has a fiddle-factor too. Sure, will be difficult to use, but probably easier than the drivers on my Tread, which are a real PIA.
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 17,515 I'm not a pessimist, I'm an experienced optimist!
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2020, 10:53:16 PM »
[quote author=Vidar link=topic=84071.msg2093361#msg2093361 I choose 19mm in part because I have some screwdriver laying around here with a ø19mm diameter handle, and that seems to have the torque work okish for most things.
[/quote]

... but your not applying force at the same radius, maybe at 1/2 of that...

I agree on the downforce as well  :tu:



The cantankerous but occasionally useful member, formally known as 50ft-trad
No Life Club Posts: 1,522
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2020, 11:20:55 PM »
[quote author=Vidar link=topic=84071.msg2093361#msg2093361 I choose 19mm in part because I have some screwdriver laying around here with a ø19mm diameter handle, and that seems to have the torque work okish for most things.


... but your not applying force at the same radius, maybe at 1/2 of that...

I agree on the downforce as well  :tu:

One should be able to get close to the edges, so more than half. But at this point it is just a bit of a wait and see thing - if too hard, then make bigger. Another variant might be too have a sturdy keychain hanger that can double as a little grip and or twisting bar.

I don't know how much I'll bother to fiddle with this though. Like I said I'm on the fence about this thing functionally as it has clear shortcomings, and even if it proves useful it is still unlikely to be any money in making such a dinky thing. I should probably just gold plate it, call it jewelry, and hang it on my wife. ::) Then again sideprojects like this can lead to other better stuff so we'll see. I'll make one or two at least and take it from there.

"If only simple wasn't so hard" - me
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 17,515 I'm not a pessimist, I'm an experienced optimist!
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2020, 11:25:53 PM »
 :tu:  :salute:



The cantankerous but occasionally useful member, formally known as 50ft-trad
No Life Club Posts: 4,501 Apparently it is possible to have too many tools;)
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2020, 04:36:36 AM »
The beauty of prototyping is you can try out one version, and that may lead to ideas for a better version.....rinse & repeat and see how you go. :tu:

babola: "Enjoy your tools and don't be afraid to air your opinion and feelings here, but do it in courteous and respectable way toward others, of course."
OCD Squad Leader Admin Team Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,573
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2020, 05:09:14 PM »
Looks a lot like the Gerber GDC Zip driver, although a cleaner, nicer design.
Personally, I prefer a bit more grip (and size), though I have used the SwissCard 4-way-driver on children toys and I think that is about the scope of what you can reasonably do with such a small tool (maybe fix your glasses, although in 40 years of wearing glasses I never had to adjust mine and I usually wear the same glasses for 5 to 7 years).
Looks like a fun project :tu:

Emergency Kit: Ovo Sport, chocolate, cheese, crispbread and a coin
No Life Club Posts: 1,522
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2020, 08:18:18 PM »
Dang it, another one - and one even more similar... This is getting embarrasing! :facepalm: I guess I really should check around more before stepping out of my usual stuff.  ::)

Edit: Well, this was a bit on the fence to start with, and this is starting to look very much like a me too thingy. And I'm certainly not about that, so I'll have a little brain reshuffling here. The basic concept, a tiny driver, seems like a fair enogh proposition, so some more iterations in random directions might be in order.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2020, 08:31:12 PM by Vidar »

"If only simple wasn't so hard" - me
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
Admin Team Zombie Apprentice Posts: 19,907 mmmmm SAKrelicious
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2020, 10:35:56 AM »
It looks very nice Vidar. I should imagine it would be very useful in an emergency and at the very least it's waaaaaay better than the Tread.

I love the back and forth you have demonstrated on this. Questioning the practicality etc. If only you'd been part of the Tread design team  :D

'Use the force Harry' - Gandalf

'Derail a thread and we'll come at you like a block of cheese'. Captain Mags and Sergeant Fuzzbucket of the Anti Derai.... mmmmmmm cheese
No Life Club Posts: 1,522
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2020, 05:49:59 PM »
It looks very nice Vidar. I should imagine it would be very useful in an emergency and at the very least it's waaaaaay better than the Tread.

I love the back and forth you have demonstrated on this. Questioning the practicality etc. If only you'd been part of the Tread design team  :D

The practicality was my main gripe with this and the reason for posting in the first place. It was also why I had no plans on doing any paper work on this one, and thus could post early. (Usually the dilemma with paperwork like registered designs or patents: I do want broad feedback as early as possible, but any early publishing prevents getting the paperwork later). I thought of it mostly as a fun little concept to quickly check out.  :cheers:

The replies have been very useful, so thanks to everyone for that! As a small update it has lead to other solutions which again has been massaged further. Still tiny, way more practical, but also on the expensive side. (Which actually might just make it a viable thing to do). That one I likely want to do the paperwork on though, so I can't show you all yet.  :-\
 

"If only simple wasn't so hard" - me
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
Admin Team Zombie Apprentice Posts: 19,907 mmmmm SAKrelicious
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2020, 03:13:12 PM »
 :popcorn:

'Use the force Harry' - Gandalf

'Derail a thread and we'll come at you like a block of cheese'. Captain Mags and Sergeant Fuzzbucket of the Anti Derai.... mmmmmmm cheese
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 18,025 Oxygen and magnesium toghether?! OMg!
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2020, 07:04:47 PM »
It looks very nice Vidar. I should imagine it would be very useful in an emergency and at the very least it's waaaaaay better than the Tread.

I love the back and forth you have demonstrated on this. Questioning the practicality etc. If only you'd been part of the Tread design team  :D

+1

I was thinking a keychain like holder would make it more usable, even before seeing the 2nd pic. Love that one! I think it's way better than the Quattro and with a small cut in the metal holder, it can be a bottle opener, too!

 :like: :like:

Here's the Quattro:
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,79977.0.html

 :salute: :tu:

________________________________
It is just a matter of time before they add the word “Syndrome” after my last name.

I don't have OCD, I have OCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ.

Eff the ineffable, scrut the inscrutable.

IYCRTYSWTMTFOT

No Life Club Posts: 1,522
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2020, 09:47:07 PM »
+1

I was thinking a keychain like holder would make it more usable, even before seeing the 2nd pic. Love that one! I think it's way better than the Quattro and with a small cut in the metal holder, it can be a bottle opener, too!

 :like: :like:

Here's the Quattro:
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,79977.0.html

 :salute: :tu:

Works has progressed quite nicely on this little sideproject, and it has turned into an interesting little screwdriver. I considered adding a blade for the occasional opening of packages and what not, but with laws around the world going crazy over even tiny utilitarian blades I chose to stick to screwdriver only.

It will likely be silly expensive though - this was a little sideproject and part of the fun was saying smurf it to normal cost considerations. It is all the more unique for it. :D

I look forward to showing it here in the not too distant future  :cheers:
« Last Edit: April 03, 2020, 09:56:53 PM by Vidar »

"If only simple wasn't so hard" - me
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
No Life Club Posts: 4,993
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2020, 11:53:11 PM »
Looking forward to seeing it once your paperwork is done.  :tu:  :popcorn:
No Life Club Posts: 1,463
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2020, 12:59:15 AM »
Interesting for sure but I also think that there is a good reason that the smaller SAK are as popular as they are and this use case is for me one of the bigger ones!

I am continuously amazed at just how handy the small straight blade driver in a SAK is for insane flexibility with different screw types and sizes even though I use them all the time.

I mostly have to use phillips screws of some kind but the small straight driver seems expertly designed to this for me.

I also have the added leverage of the entire knife when needed as well as the other tools always on board.

I know for myself though I have carried a tiny driver as you suggest here a lot I rarely find a great use for one at the same time as long as I have almost any SAK with me at the same time.
As I know many of us here often do!

Just my observations though I would also be interested to see what you end up with.
No Life Club Posts: 1,522
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2020, 12:25:05 PM »
If you have a better tool available you will of course use that. That said being available is indeed the speciality of SAKs and multi-tools, and as they exist in many sizes it is fair to assume tastes and requirements vary between people and situations.

So this thing isn't for everyone or for all situations, but it is supposed to be there when you need a variety of screwdrivers on your keychain. It takes little space and shouldn't make too much of a difference if you already have keys.

Most here do carry SAKs or multitools already. Some though just carry knives and then a tiny screwdriver combination might make sense. And the new version is a lot more practical as a screwdriver - with the possibility of adding other functions.

Anyway, we will see. Unless we and the factory can bring costs down it wont make sense for most people. (I showed utter contempt for cost considerations during design - it was supposed to be a fun sideproject, and cost considerations aren't fun.)

Possibly not for anyone - except me I guess. :D If someone else wants it that is great - if not I'm ok with that too. I've had my fun. :)

Edit: Cleaned it up a bit.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 01:11:49 PM by Vidar »

"If only simple wasn't so hard" - me
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,600 Yoo-hoo, big summer blowout!
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2020, 01:16:26 PM »
Just want to repeat that I love the look of it. :cheers:
Even if it's not optimised for manufacturing!

Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!
No Life Club Posts: 1,522
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2020, 01:57:20 PM »
Just want to repeat that I love the look of it. :cheers:
Even if it's not optimised for manufacturing!

The one in the pictures isn't all that expensive to make, but the one being made now is. And it should be a lot more practical in use.

"If only simple wasn't so hard" - me
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,600 Yoo-hoo, big summer blowout!
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2020, 02:29:02 PM »
The one in the pictures isn't all that expensive to make, but the one being made now is. And it should be a lot more practical in use.
:ahhh :popcorn:

Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!
No Life Club Posts: 1,463
Re: Tiny tiny screwdriver with 4 heads - anyone?
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2020, 06:49:00 PM »
Hey
I never said that I wouldn't buy a couple! :gimme:

If you have a better tool available you will of course use that. That said being available is indeed the speciality of SAKs and multi-tools, and as they exist in many sizes it is fair to assume tastes and requirements vary between people and situations.

So this thing isn't for everyone or for all situations, but it is supposed to be there when you need a variety of screwdrivers on your keychain. It takes little space and shouldn't make too much of a difference if you already have keys.

Most here do carry SAKs or multitools already. Some though just carry knives and then a tiny screwdriver combination might make sense. And the new version is a lot more practical as a screwdriver - with the possibility of adding other functions.

Anyway, we will see. Unless we and the factory can bring costs down it wont make sense for most people. (I showed utter contempt for cost considerations during design - it was supposed to be a fun sideproject, and cost considerations aren't fun.)

Possibly not for anyone - except me I guess. :D If someone else wants it that is great - if not I'm ok with that too. I've had my fun. :)

Edit: Cleaned it up a bit.

 

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