The reality of bugging out.

[aerojet]

To start with, let me introduce myself and where I am coming from - MY parents were the "survivor" bug out type. As a Child of this madness it got me to thinking reality check time.

I  read all the posts in here, about the tools and stuff you think you need to "live" someplace in the outdoors.  HAVE you really tried that? IN mid-winter? With snow all over the place? Where are you going to go? Heat? Water? Basic toileting?

If you think all those people running for TP are going to let you have any, just wait until they start running for the rural scene. Where are you going to go anyway? Do you have a little land, or someplace you can get to easily? Power on? Are you going to need a generator? Again, what about water, heat and basic toilet?

Well I can say at 72 we have been there and done that ---



This is our VW Westy out in February, and look at the snow. Where were we? Gov. Dodge State park. We still have the unit in good running shape after almost 30 years --- but the point is we spent three days out in the cold, snow, and all out by ourselves in mid FEBRUARY. The only thing on in the state park was the electricity. Thanks GOD for that!

So what is you BOB or 24 hour kit going to do under those conditions? How much food and water can you carry? Someplace comfortable to sleep? Warm and Dry? Then there is that nagging toilet question. The state parks have theirs closed. You need to bring your own and have some way of flushing the thing -- emptying it is easy, just stop up to the ranger station and dump it down the existing facilities! DO NOT try the "survivor thing" of going just anyplace, especially in a state park. The rangers will be by and you had better not made a super unsanitary mess.

My parents had a place 2 hours north of here by freeway, 4 or 5 hours by back roads, and who else is trying to get out of town? Food? A years worth of dried stuff in the basement -- which when we cleaned out the estate was rusty and junk. A whole pallet of cases of Mountain House freeze dried food which was almost 35 years old by that date. A shallow well, read that sand point, but no generator. Septic system, and I don't know to the day we sold the place in what condition.

So the post? Think about what you are saying, doing and think about the reality of the situation You can do more by staying home, and target hardening your place you live in now. Get a generator. The city sewer and water will in all probability be on. Get a ton of fire extinguishers, and have a hose or two hooked up in the basement, and long enough to go anywhere. (100 foot hoses)

AND unless you have someplace with in a half hour on the back road into the toolies, and you can legally be on the property --- bugging out is going to be a trip to the store to try to buy toilet paper. ONLY with a lot of scared and angry people around you trying to get the same resources.

If you thought the fights over TP were something, just await the fights over some place to squat and wait out the mess --------

Just my 2 cents worth, you mileage may very.

The Aerojet

[Aloha]

 . 

Its fun to "think" about bugging out to a secret location.  I hope those that have a location have it set up amazingly.  I honestly never thought anyone truly was going to bug out to a outdoor location and set up a shelter.  Maybe some like you have vehicles that are camp worthy? 

I tend to feel the notion of a bug out spot where one would trek to is not very realistic for a lot of people let alone their families as well.  Add in inclement weather of any type........   

We were and are preparing for bugging in at home which we began in earnest several years ago.  I posted in 2014 then followed up a little after a year then again recently https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,56079.0.html.  The conditions I posted initially were prep to stay home, no power or water from city.  At that time in 2014 I didn't know we'd be putting our preps to task.  We live in a yearly fire threat state so having to leave is a real possibility so we also prep to be able to do so very quickly.     

Back to the prepping in, I didn't resolve the water issue but I have a much better idea of how.  We did prep food and other household items over the years.  Like I said in the follow up, who would have known TP would be a thing?  I mistyped and said we last went to the store April 13 but its actually March 13th.  We are still good to go.  No rushing to the store for TP thats for sure.  No panic buying for us.  Things for us were pretty much the same till we realized this was going to last a while.  I told my family we were going into conserve mode.  We weren't going to just be consuming just to consume.  If we really had to be in survival mode this would be a great "test".  Seems if what I've am reading and hearing is many are gaining quite a lot of weight during this time.  I'm guessing some are "bored" eating.  We kind of joked that we will emerge thinner and more fit since I asked my family to go into conserve mode.  My youngest started jumping rope while the rest resisted their w/o routines. 

I've always wondered about those that did pharmaceuticals  .  How would they do if they in fact bugged out to some wilderness location?  Those that like a sip of alcohol every night?  Those that have a bite of sweets every night?  Those that rely on outside foods?  This has got to be a tough situation for them and those with daily prescriptions, those with regular mental health appts ( talk therapy) , or other medical needs?     

The one thing many failed to realize was the isolation factor.  How it would play out for a great many.  We all seem to have TVs, computers, phones, and a plethora of other things to keep ourselves entertained yet we hear about many who are going bonkers.  Imagine being in the woods for those people? 

I wonder how many of these bug out folks actually have their families on board as mentioned earlier?  I wonder how many actually can cook fireside?  I'm not pooping on anyone.  I honestly wonder about this all.  I have mentioned it in the past as well.  We read divorces up, domestic violence up, drinking up, which brings to question of coping skills.  The greatest strength for me is my family.  They are all doing so well under our shelter in place orders.  We have laughed so much.  We have had such a blessing of time with each other.  They are so busy with work, school, friends, hobbies, and everything else that consumes their time.  This has been wonderful time ( unfortunate circumstance obviously ) to reconnect and recharge with one another.  I'm blessed we all enjoy being with one another.       

 
Since I last posted, we had a lot of rain and I did set up a few containers.  33gal totes placed under water run off from roof.  I filled 4 in a few hours rain.  I now know I can capture water very easily for shower, toilet, bathe and purify to drink if I have to.  I will source IBC totes and get that going as part of my preps.  I should easily be about to fill one if not two 275 gal totes in a season of rain.  A small reverse osmosis plus other filters/methods can provide adequate filtration for drinking water.

I do hope all are well.       

[aerojet]

I see you have at least thought about it. Just for you to know, we are self-employed, this is our "vacation" to get away from the biz for a few days. We have been "winter camping" -- read that off season for over 30 years.From October 15th thru the weekend before Memorial Day weekend. AND Yes we camp during the summer as well. It does take quite a bit to go out, even to a campground in winter, let alone just a piece of raw land to try to live on. AS far as cooking over a campfire -- most would not do well. How do I know?

My wife worked for "Old World Wisconsin" which is a state museum showing life in the 1800's for over 30 years. She cooks and sort of lives in relocated buildings during the season from about April 1 thru the end of October, and she is there for the winter weekend events, showing life in that era. Trust me, you do not want to live that way for any length of time. It is cold, even with wood stoves, no insulation in the buildings, and outdoor plumbing, which in summer is totally fragrant, and in winter miserable. I do not understand how people could live like that, but they did back then --- expecting people today to revert to that lifestyle would be unthinkable.

To take an RV and nothing less out in the winter requires a lot of forethought covering everything -- from water to heat to sanitation.  Under canvas it is unthinkable. One would die from exposure before the end of the first night. As a past scoutmaster I went along with a lot of troops to Long Lake (BSA Camp) for overnight survival camping and to get their polar bear patches. Trust me it is miserable. Not be be repeated unless absolutely necessary.

Being out in an RV isn't a whole lot better without a lot of planning, camping in all kinds of weather, having a few nights of miserable experience and learning from them, it took us three weekends out to work out all the kinks in winter RV camping. That meant being cold, having frozen water and don't ask what happened to the port-a-jon ! Until we started to flush with windshield water anti freeze it was a mess.

Now? It is like old times and we just roll along. That is the years of experience. But for city dwellers who think that they can read a book, watch a few videos on "survival camping" -- even with scouting experience, it is not going to work in the real world. It can be done, but only by experienced and real outdoors people who have done it -- been there -- froze our @$$ off, and lived to tell about it, and went out again and made changes and then has a reasonable weekend. AS long as it stayed above 15 degrees F .....

The Aerojet

[pomsbz]

I've had to bug out for real, a raging, out of control forest fire that got to within  50 yards of the building. The police came and gave my wife a 30 second notice to leave and start running. I was trying to get home on my bike after work, we had a kid in kindergarten near the fire whom I  had to rescue immediately and that took precedence to getting home and grabbing bags. It really was a real eye opener. The reality of bugging out with family on a moments notice is horrific. I wish I had a proper solution for next time. I'm afraid to say that other than rudimentary advances we're far from there.  I've got enough in our little car for a person but an entire family? Not for more than a day. Maximum. I'd need a truck to keep enough in there permanently. The solution and reality now is what it was then -  family and friends, credit cards, the emergency services and the government/army. The social network which we are so reliant on as a species. I could wish it was otherwise and with even a bit of warning it might be but the reality has already proven to be less kind than that.

[Mechanickal]

I don't think the MTO community is considered a Bug Out community in the sense that you described it.

Bugging out because of a natural disaster is basically called an evacuation. Bugging out because the end of society is happening?? Wrong forum.

Now, some members may choose that way, but I think most people here are aware that a secured home is still better than a camper in a forest.

[Aloha]

I've always thought the people who prepare to bug out are those expecting zombies? 

[Mechanickal]

Zombies appeared right after the smartphone was invented

[Aloha]

Lynn had a thread about what bothered her about these type bags.  Everyone has to do what they feel is right for themselves and their situations  .  I choose to spend my resources on making my home dependable and cozy for any long term sheltering in place, like we are doing now.  In my thread I added the possibility of loss of power and or water.  Power would likely be lost over water but  .  We had that happen several years back and it scared a lot of folks.  We've got alternative cooking options and foods that don't need refrigeration.  As I mentioned water is being looked at and with my test on capturing rain water I think I have that covered.     

Evacuation preparedness is something we take very serious.  We would likely go to a location and smooth it rather than set up camp in some remote location.  We'd go to a Red Cross or similar location and "camp" if relatives homes were not a viable option.  We have year round wild fires here in California so again we take that very serious.  While I don't think it would happen we are also in a Tsunami zone.  We are ready to head to higher ground in that instance as well. 

We are not ready for Zombies however.    

[aerojet]

Well, I thought this was "Outdoor and SURVIVAL" Forum, but I guess I am wrong. My apology to those I offended.

The Aerojet

[Aloha]

It is.  Carry on.

Here is Lynns thread.  These topics are very personal.  She knew that which is why her title was pretty funny to me.   
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,74836.0.html

[Mechanickal]

No offense taken, none meant to give

And I was not saying you can't discuss it, it just sounded a bit as if you see us all as Bugout-ers

Feel free to go on!

[Mcfal12]

Lynn's post is really funny.

Aerojet, I agree with many of your points and the spirit of your message. I am a former city dweller and now suburbanite. During Sandty, the town I live in was (mostly) under 8’ of water. It breached the first home in hundreds of homes-all from river flooding. I am by no means a prepper, and by no means did I ever imagine seeing anything like that to prep for. So I was forced to improvise, literally floated out of town using my aerobed as a raft and broom as a paddle. My generator, knives, cooking kit, tent, etc was all useless. I mean to Lynn’s point, wtf was the prepped kit with a canoe?  Hahhahaaaaaaa

But I did have some basics and mostly was able to improvise for 6 days after the water receded and I returned home with a new portable generator while power was out. I will never be able to properly source everything I’d need and to Mechanickals point, I would and did turn to friends and family those first days to get by.

Honestly, it may sound like I’m giving up, but if the nuclear holocaust comes, I’m largely going to worry about keeping my daughter safe and improvise, barter with my skills and labor, my ingenuity and rely on the kindness of friends and strangers and strength in community as I know I’ll never be able to fully prepare everything I’d need for my family to survive. I’m certain there will be bad people to avoid, but I’ve also seen humanity regularly pull together in the toughest times.

So to your point, well said, the amount of true prep, testing the solution, knowing your route, how to use all your Equipment, be able to fix it all is well taken.

[Mcfal12]

Aloha,

Your idea of the shelter in place and make it as comfortable as possible hits right at the spirit of Aerojets post. Well said and executed.

For most people this is the most reasonable option and I think most should focus on a 7 day kit to keep themselves fed, warm and such in their home.

In fact it might be a little cynical to say, but I was surprised about the mad rush to the store when Covid 19 lockdowns began. Don’t most people have food for a few days? I mean some of that was ‘prebuying’ because of expected shortages, but were the people really complaining about having no TP at their home or were they just worried about not getting so e in the future? I would imagine, most folks, have a few days worth of food in their homes- and if rationed could easily stretch for a week or more. Perhaps the mentality that we have become accomustomed too should be the real prep. For example, who is used to rationing food? Most people probably wouldn’t consider that as a first viable option versus running out to the store to get more food.

Just my $.02

[aerojet]

I guess with all the stuff going on, we do not need people thinking that just heading for the hills, or woods is going to be a solution to their problems. I know that these are difficult times and just a word of warning to anyone who thinks that this is a good option. It is not without a lot of experience at this sort of thing.

Just with the long lines for just about everything these days one never knows what the next panic run for ..... will be. I hope we don't get them out here in the toolies and they expect that we have tons of stuff hidden away---- we don't.

The Aerojet

[AimlessWanderer]

England.

55 million people, 1.4million hectares of woodland

That's around 250m² per head of population. For those still working in antique measurements, it works out roughly at an area 50ft x 50ft.

Even counting ALL the estimated trees in the country, including those in parks, orchards, gardens, and by the roadside, we've got about 47 trees each.

I'm stopping home!

[AimlessWanderer]

Nearest I've had to the survival away from home thing, was stuck on the boat in a frozen canal, with temperatures down to -17C. No electric. No running water on site. Logs for firewood were frozen solid. I had some processed wood on the boat, but only enough for cooking Luckily I had a couple of battery lights, and a few sacks of smokeless fuel for the stove. Without that, there'd have been no water, never mind heat and ambient light (to allow me to change batteries). I'd also have been waking up regularly throughout the night to keep loading the stove every hour or so, so sleep deprivation would have been worse. Plus, I'd have had to spend the first hour or more trying to get some heat into the boat after trudging home each evening ... by which point it was already going dark.

Going there was planned, and I expected to have to stop there a couple or three nights so I could still get to work (on foot), despite the forecast of heavy snow.

The snow was knee deep where it hadn't drifted, and I was trudging through that twice a day to get to work and back. The car was buried up to the windows. It took me two and a half weeks, before I could get the car dug out, driven safely along the side of the canal without sliding into the lock, and a further couple of hundred metres to the first properly cleared road, and head home. Had it been three days, it would have been a fun little challenge, but after the first week it wasn't much fun at all. Laundry, pot washing, personal hygene, were all done in a washing up bowl with either melted snow, or carried in bottled water from the supermarket on the way home. I couldn't even get water at work, as the pipes were frozen solid there too, so I was carrying water each way.

[ElevenBlade]

Very cool thread, very cool OP Aerojet.   

I thought the whole bug out idea was interesting from a technical standpoint, and I did like watching some episodes of that reality TV show.  We'd discussed BOBs on another thread, and what I realized is we are really at the mercy of wherever we live with regard to how much you can expect to "bug out".  Some people will choose a certain part of the country in order to be able to prepare for how they intend to bug out - particularly if they are planning to be fully self-sufficient for an extended time period.  I knew someone who had planned to leave my area and move 1800 miles to a place that he said had the most major roads intersecting that would get him safely out of the area if several of those roads were impassable - and that within a short drive he would be able to "get off the grid"  (i.e it went from urban to rural within a short distance).

I think I'd suggested that one should plan to shelter in place rather than bug out, on that other thread, because that's what seems to be the best option for me - others pointed out it might not be an option for them... wildfires being a good example of that.   So I'm mindful that YMMV.

I've been interested in the Gray Man Bag idea - because it's something I may end up having to do because I take public transit fairly often. I've actually found very few useful ideas.  I think the only adjustment I made was that I carry a raincoat in my bag these days.   

[Vidar]

I  read all the posts in here, about the tools and stuff you think you need to "live" someplace in the outdoors.  HAVE you really tried that? IN mid-winter? With snow all over the place? Where are you going to go? Heat? Water? Basic toileting?

It can certainly be done. People can be amazingly resistant.

One thing I notice though is that many seem to presume other people will be hostile. To some extent that might true of course, but the experience from around here is that most people would cooperate and help each other out.

[Mcfal12]

 

[pomsbz]

Shelter in place as we're doing now is somewhat dependant on there still being utilities and basic supplies (water, food, sanitation, gas), health care and of course civil order. If those were to go then it becomes much more problematic. To the extent of evacuation, including evacuation on foot with the family.

I wrote a bunch about this on another forum way back. A better direction for preparation, instead of lone ranger bug out fantasies, is to study refugees of all kinds from the catastrophic events of the past century. See what they took when they hit the road, how they took it and what would we do instead. In the case of staying despite most having evacuated, that again has parallels with those who stayed in the bombed out cities, scavenging a survival. How they did it, how they survived and how they avoided attention and death is a more valuable lesson for a catastrophic event than practising woodcraft IMO.





If anything we're actually far worse prepared than they were for evacuation. Assuming that the petrol is unavailable and the roads inaccessible to cars, we have no horses or donkeys, no carts, we're soft, pampered and have been spoiled by the ease of modern life. The social structure does not believe in or have much experience with hierarchy, patience, stoicism, discipline, etc. The Syrian shown below who stayed put is far better equipped to deal with this socially than most of us and yet the refugee crisis there was and is of a scale not seen for many many decades despite all the billions of dollars of aid money (supposedly) providing supplies.

[eamo]

Shelter in place as we're doing now is somewhat dependant on there still being utilities and basic supplies (water, food, sanitation, gas), health care and of course civil order. If those were to go then it becomes much more problematic. To the extent of evacuation, including evacuation on foot with the family.

I wrote a bunch about this on another forum way back. A better direction for preparation, instead of lone ranger bug out fantasies, is to study refugees of all kinds from the catastrophic events of the past century. See what they took when they hit the road, how they took it and what would we do instead. In the case of staying despite most having evacuated, that again has parallels with those who stayed in the bombed out cities, scavenging a survival. How they did it, how they survived and how they avoided attention and death is a more valuable lesson for a catastrophic event than practising woodcraft IMO.

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

If anything we're actually far worse prepared than they were for evacuation. Assuming that the petrol is unavailable and the roads inaccessible to cars, we have no horses or donkeys, no carts, we're soft, pampered and have been spoiled by the ease of modern life. The social structure does not believe in or have much experience with hierarchy, patience, stoicism, discipline, etc. The Syrian shown below who stayed put is far better equipped to deal with this socially than most of us and yet the refugee crisis there was and is of a scale not seen for many many decades despite all the billions of dollars of aid money (supposedly) providing supplies.

(Image removed from quote.)

very valid point Ben.

this whole thread is interesting. I live on an island, bugging out was never an option and so never really planned for it. I've always kept about 4 weeks or so of food and other supplies in my home mostly with severe weather in mind - we rarely get bad snow/ice so when we do things shut down as no one (including me) has any real idea how to drive in it.

[eamo]

Aerojet, that a T25 you have there in the first pic ?

[aerojet]

No - it is a Vanagon Westfalia camper. 1991 to be exact. 4 cylinder "water boxer" engine. Has propane for fridge and stove, two batteries, and the usual Westy interior stuff. Nice unit, has been kept garaged since the first, and now has about 65,000 miles on it. No rust as far AS I can tell.

The Aerojet

[Aloha]

 

[ElevenBlade]

Shelter in place as we're doing now is somewhat dependant on there still being utilities and basic supplies (water, food, sanitation, gas), health care and of course civil order. If those were to go then it becomes much more problematic. To the extent of evacuation, including evacuation on foot with the family.

I wrote a bunch about this on another forum way back. A better direction for preparation, instead of lone ranger bug out fantasies, is to study refugees of all kinds from the catastrophic events of the past century. See what they took when they hit the road, how they took it and what would we do instead. In the case of staying despite most having evacuated, that again has parallels with those who stayed in the bombed out cities, scavenging a survival. How they did it, how they survived and how they avoided attention and death is a more valuable lesson for a catastrophic event than practising woodcraft IMO.

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

If anything we're actually far worse prepared than they were for evacuation. Assuming that the petrol is unavailable and the roads inaccessible to cars, we have no horses or donkeys, no carts, we're soft, pampered and have been spoiled by the ease of modern life. The social structure does not believe in or have much experience with hierarchy, patience, stoicism, discipline, etc. The Syrian shown below who stayed put is far better equipped to deal with this socially than most of us and yet the refugee crisis there was and is of a scale not seen for many many decades despite all the billions of dollars of aid money (supposedly) providing supplies.

(Image removed from quote.)

What a thought-provoking perspective.  Think about it - your home becomes unsafe, and your six month's worth of resources has depleted.  The only option you are left with is to prepare your I'm Never Coming Home (INCH) bag, take your kids, and bug out. 

[Vidar]

That last picture seems a bit too much like camping?

So since this is a thread about bug-out in winter I think a few other pictures might be more relevant. Around November 1944 the German army was retreating from the northernmost parts of Norway and Finland. As part of this retreat they decided to destroy every human resource available. All houses and buildings (except a few churches), all kinds of supplies, livestock, boats. Basically if it could be of any use to anyone it was taken or destroyed.

This covered a huge area all the way up to 71 degrees north, and it does get cold in winter. The Germans decided to forcibly evacuate the entire civil population in the region. (I don't know about Finland, but maybe similar?) Now, as a civilian you might not trust that the Germans had your best interest in mind. After all, the experience was more that those who went with them didn't return. (And indeed the Germans themselves had expected that about 1/3 would die during the evacuation - that was an estimate of about 25000 people).

The result being that about 23000 civilians disobeyed the German orders and instead decided to bug out into the wilderness in November without much of anything. But with everything from small kids to elderly. To make matters worse they also had to hide as the Germans were actively trying to capture them or worse. Which meant hiding in some quite offbeat places, and not move around much.

Many of those who chose to bug out imagined there would be help and suppliers coming fairly soon after the Germans withdrew. That didn't really happen, and German patrols continued to the very end. Most were on their own throughout the entire winter and until Mai 1945 when Germany capitulated.

One thing I'm pretty sure of though - they didn't worry too much about the comfort of sleeping, carrying water, or toilet paper. As one can imagine there wasn't really many if any camera's around, but here are a few photos. One from the burning of the city of Hammerfest, while the other two are likely taken in spring the year after.

[Mcfal12]

Pomsbz, well articulated and valid points as well. Of this thread, and the people whose thoughts and ideas have been shared are any indication of the resourcefulness of people - May I suggest this group be the ones to repopulate the earth after any such mass extinction 

[eamo]

No - it is a Vanagon Westfalia camper. 1991 to be exact. 4 cylinder "water boxer" engine. Has propane for fridge and stove, two batteries, and the usual Westy interior stuff. Nice unit, has been kept garaged since the first, and now has about 65,000 miles on it. No rust as far AS I can tell.

The Aerojet

Nice ! My partner has a 01 T4 workvan converted to a camper, not as fancy as yours but it suits our needs

[ElevenBlade]

That last picture seems a bit too much like camping?

Good observation - I picked a stock photo instead of an actual family. 

I saw a meme online somewhere about how preppers now have the opportunity to shelter in place, or bug out, or whatever they want, and instead (in the US) they are protesting the stay at home orders.   

[Vidar]

I saw a meme online somewhere about how preppers now have the opportunity to shelter in place, or bug out, or whatever they want, and instead (in the US) they are protesting the stay at home orders.   

Can they bug out if they have to stay at home? Maybe they will find some bug outers still going at it in 10 years time in the middle of nowhere?

For many the effort to stop Corona has huge economic impact. To the degree that effort can be administered at various levels I can understand that some protest against the chosen level. For some the economic issue might be a life or death situation on its own.

But who knows exactly where to balance the level best? Even with the correct level some will be harder hit than others. Corona is new with too many unknown factors - there will be some guesswork and some parts will get wrong one way or the other. Hindsight might tell someday.

Over here many wanted to bug out to their cabins, but going to cabins got banned. That is the most controversial and protested decision here.