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The reality of bugging out. 3299

No Life Club Posts: 2,605
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2020, 04:37:16 AM »
Can they bug out if they have to stay at home? :think: :dunno: Maybe they will find some bug outers still going at it in 10 years time in the middle of nowhere? :D

For many the effort to stop Corona has huge economic impact. To the degree that effort can be administered at various levels I can understand that some protest against the chosen level. For some the economic issue might be a life or death situation on its own.

But who knows exactly where to balance the level best? Even with the correct level some will be harder hit than others. Corona is new with too many unknown factors - there will be some guesswork and some parts will get wrong one way or the other. Hindsight might tell someday.

Over here many wanted to bug out to their cabins, but going to cabins got banned. That is the most controversial and protested decision here.

They gave us a few days advance notice, so people here could potentially bug out to their cabin - I know of two people in the area who did just that. (they referred to it as fleeing the congested area, not bugging out... they are nervous but not preppers)  Some places in the US are much less strict than others... my guess is that the most strict/enforced would allow you to bug out to your cabin but then have mandatory quarantine for 14 days.  I hear all sorts of "irregular" things - someone who managed to extend their vacation by taking a trip they knew full well that they couldn't return from.   :facepalm:
Global Moderator Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 24,630
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2020, 06:06:22 AM »
Cabin?  That sounds awesome. 

Esse Quam Videri
No Life Club Posts: 1,593
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2020, 06:49:08 AM »
I hear all sorts of "irregular" things - someone who managed to extend their vacation by taking a trip they knew full well that they couldn't return from.   :facepalm:

I guess there is stuff like this here too. The powers that be suddenly made a change recently so that "self-imposed actions that lead to quarantine" doesn't necessarily qualify for wage support anymore. I guess some people made themselves have to quarantine so they would get 14 days off work with pay.

"Simple is hard"
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
No Life Club Posts: 2,478
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2020, 09:31:00 AM »
Can they bug out if they have to stay at home? :think: :dunno: Maybe they will find some bug outers still going at it in 10 years time in the middle of nowhere? :D

For many the effort to stop Corona has huge economic impact. To the degree that effort can be administered at various levels I can understand that some protest against the chosen level. For some the economic issue might be a life or death situation on its own.

But who knows exactly where to balance the level best? Even with the correct level some will be harder hit than others. Corona is new with too many unknown factors - there will be some guesswork and some parts will get wrong one way or the other. Hindsight might tell someday.

Over here many wanted to bug out to their cabins, but going to cabins got banned. That is the most controversial and protested decision here.

It doesn't make sense as it's the best isolation in real terms. Were they worried about people running out of resources and requiring rescue?

"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 17,517 I'm not a pessimist, I'm an experienced optimist!
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2020, 12:29:00 PM »
Maybe as it still doesn't mean that people wont catch it (they still need to get supplies from somewhere, or one of the party may be in the incubation stage when they leave) it just potentially puts more strain on the ambulance crews if people are more remote, and take longer to get to and from. Maybe ability to call for assistance (phone signal strength etc) is a concern too.



The cantankerous but occasionally useful member, formally known as 50ft-trad
No Life Club Posts: 2,605
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2020, 03:14:08 PM »
Maybe as it still doesn't mean that people wont catch it (they still need to get supplies from somewhere, or one of the party may be in the incubation stage when they leave) it just potentially puts more strain on the ambulance crews if people are more remote, and take longer to get to and from. Maybe ability to call for assistance (phone signal strength etc) is a concern too.

Indeed - people don't seem to realize these risks, or realize that they don't understand the science and mathematics of the spread of disease.  The reason for the 14-day quarantine is that most people will show signs of the disease any time in the 14 day incubation period - you can be having a grand old time in your secluded cabin with your family for nearly a fortnight before everything goes haywire.  And if the virus hasn't read the rule book maybe it will become active on day 17... who knows...

It's really baffling - people don't understand all sorts of technical things - how their computer works, how space shuttles work... When I really screw up the plumbing in my house I know I need to stop, step away, don't touch a single thing and call a professional plumber.  I just don't get why people think they can understand epidemiology and medical science... much of which is baffling experts. 
Global Moderator Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 24,630
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2020, 04:28:57 PM »
I would be interested in how many people actually bugged out.  I don't imagine many have second homes/cabins/bunker/wooded areas to "camp? or that many significant others and children in their lives would go.  My partner is very well adept at camping and hiking and such.  Given the camp indefinitely vs stay at home she's staying put at home.  In both scenarios she's gonna have to fetch supplies.  Now, if there is a cabin/house/bunker available thats been set up to where she wouldn't have to fetch supplies then I can see her going. 

I don't think bug out scenarios included pandemics?  I have always felt those bug out scenarios were breakdowns of government. 

Esse Quam Videri
No Life Club Posts: 1,593
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2020, 05:14:42 PM »
It doesn't make sense as it's the best isolation in real terms. Were they worried about people running out of resources and requiring rescue?

I think it was based specifically with regards to pressure from some counties where the number of cabins are manyfold the number of all year inhabitants. With the health services typically sized according to inhabitants rather than cabins the worry was that multiplying the population (especially during easter) could top out the local health services.

That said, some of the locals were of course worried about what all these cabin dwellers might bring with them - but that wasn't the official reasoning. One could also make the argument that most cabins are not in such areas and that locals rules would have made more sense. But they decided to make it easy to upheld with no exceptions.

For some in the risk groups not being able to isolate in cabins but instead having to stay around in dense areas likely increased their risk and exposure. So whether this was wise or not is basically a wild guess. It was not suggested by health authorities so it was a political thing.

"Simple is hard"
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
No Life Club Posts: 1,593
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2020, 05:23:01 PM »
I don't imagine many have second homes/cabins/bunker/wooded areas to "camp? or that many significant others and children in their lives would go. 

I don't think bug out scenarios included pandemics?  I have always felt those bug out scenarios were breakdowns of government.

Here at least the number is something like 1 cabin per 3 households. Add to that many cabins are family cabins used by several households it is actually quite common. Maybe more common to have access to a cabin than not. Supposedly Norwegians spend around 60 days per year in cabins on average. Thus the cabin ban was very controversial.

I thought one could find preppers prepared for any conceivable issue? (Although few focusing on all I guess?)

"Simple is hard"
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
No Life Club Posts: 2,478
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2020, 06:50:07 PM »
Here at least the number is something like 1 cabin per 3 households. Add to that many cabins are family cabins used by several households it is actually quite common. Maybe more common to have access to a cabin than not. Supposedly Norwegians spend around 60 days per year in cabins on average. Thus the cabin ban was very controversial.

I thought one could find preppers prepared for any conceivable issue? (Although few focusing on all I guess?)

I want a cabin in Norway!  :gimme:

"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
No Life Club Posts: 1,593
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2020, 09:45:28 PM »
I want a cabin in Norway!  :gimme:

Strictly speaking you don't even need to own one. There are some free access or next to nothing cabins available for everyone to use. Some placed in very popular areas (thus big and likely to find many others there already) or in very remote areas where hardly anyone ever goes. Actually some old lighthouses might be in the same category - I haven't really paid attention to this subject.

"Simple is hard"
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,610
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2020, 10:24:16 PM »
Strictly speaking you don't even need to own one. There are some free access or next to nothing cabins available for everyone to use. Some placed in very popular areas (thus big and likely to find many others there already) or in very remote areas where hardly anyone ever goes. Actually some old lighthouses might be in the same category - I haven't really paid attention to this subject.
From my visit last year I seem to remember that a local told me it was standard procedure to leave a form of payment in a cabin you used.
Is that true when using a private, unlocked cabin?
Do cabins get locked anyway?

Buy now or regret later
No Life Club Posts: 1,593
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2020, 10:52:51 PM »
From my visit last year I seem to remember that a local told me it was standard procedure to leave a form of payment in a cabin you used.
Is that true when using a private, unlocked cabin?
Do cabins get locked anyway?

Depends on the cabins and owners - there are many options of course.

There are simply unlocked cabins which I imagine are mostly used by fishermen, hunters or hikers. The general idea is to leave them in the same or better condition as they were when you arrived. Some operate on the same principle but you have to borrow a key somewhere before you go.

Then there are bigger hiker and stopover cabins run by various ideal or public organizations. These might house several families at once and typically have someone living there to keep them running. I have no idea about the payment, but I imagine sleeping over will incur some kind of fee - same with eating dinner and so on.

Rental cabins are also available in all price ranges as one can imagine, from basic to crazy luxury. The public ones are around USD 40-50 or so per night I think. I would expect standards to vary quite a lot for these depending on how long it has been since last upgrade or renovation.

In addition to these, for those that want to live closer to nature, there are also the concept of "gamme". These are basically small earthen constructs, typically with a fireplace and sleeping place(s). As building regulations are next to none, and they might even be on public ground, the premise is that they have to be simple, unlocked and available for anybody.

(Private cabins will definetely be locked - these days cabins are often the same standards as modern homes).

"Simple is hard"
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,804
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2020, 06:20:16 AM »
Shelter in place as we're doing now is somewhat dependant on there still being utilities and basic supplies (water, food, sanitation, gas), health care and of course civil order. If those were to go then it becomes much more problematic. To the extent of evacuation, including evacuation on foot with the family.

I wrote a bunch about this on another forum way back. A better direction for preparation, instead of lone ranger bug out fantasies, is to study refugees of all kinds from the catastrophic events of the past century. See what they took when they hit the road, how they took it and what would we do instead. In the case of staying despite most having evacuated, that again has parallels with those who stayed in the bombed out cities, scavenging a survival. How they did it, how they survived and how they avoided attention and death is a more valuable lesson for a catastrophic event than practising woodcraft IMO.

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

If anything we're actually far worse prepared than they were for evacuation. Assuming that the petrol is unavailable and the roads inaccessible to cars, we have no horses or donkeys, no carts, we're soft, pampered and have been spoiled by the ease of modern life. The social structure does not believe in or have much experience with hierarchy, patience, stoicism, discipline, etc. The Syrian shown below who stayed put is far better equipped to deal with this socially than most of us and yet the refugee crisis there was and is of a scale not seen for many many decades despite all the billions of dollars of aid money (supposedly) providing supplies.

(Image removed from quote.)

What a thought-provoking perspective.  Think about it - your home becomes unsafe, and your six month's worth of resources has depleted.  The only option you are left with is to prepare your I'm Never Coming Home (INCH) bag, take your kids, and bug out. 

Pomsbz, well articulated and valid points as well. Of this thread, and the people whose thoughts and ideas have been shared are any indication of the resourcefulness of people - May I suggest this group be the ones to repopulate the earth after any such mass extinction  ;)

Ben, this really is one of the best posts written about 'bugging out', and opens a whole new chapter for discussion.  As I complained about the practicality of  'come home bag' or 'bug out bag' in another thread, I was thinking maybe an emergency evacuation bag is a more realistic scenario to plan for.  And what you've just described is entirely new level of planning, literally migration due to unforeseen circumstances or life altering events.

I once read somewhere that most Europeans were not aware of or didn't it very seriously about the world war when it first started, and in retrospect, I wonder with all these information technology, will the human race react any differently than those era?  Surely, the options of travelling by cart/donkey/horses are out, and modern convenience might have made us softer and plumper, but can advance planning mitigate the risk of sudden evacuation.

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No Life Club Posts: 2,478
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2020, 11:08:14 AM »
Depends on the cabins and owners - there are many options of course.

There are simply unlocked cabins which I imagine are mostly used by fishermen, hunters or hikers. The general idea is to leave them in the same or better condition as they were when you arrived. Some operate on the same principle but you have to borrow a key somewhere before you go.

Then there are bigger hiker and stopover cabins run by various ideal or public organizations. These might house several families at once and typically have someone living there to keep them running. I have no idea about the payment, but I imagine sleeping over will incur some kind of fee - same with eating dinner and so on.

Rental cabins are also available in all price ranges as one can imagine, from basic to crazy luxury. The public ones are around USD 40-50 or so per night I think. I would expect standards to vary quite a lot for these depending on how long it has been since last upgrade or renovation.

In addition to these, for those that want to live closer to nature, there are also the concept of "gamme". These are basically small earthen constructs, typically with a fireplace and sleeping place(s). As building regulations are next to none, and they might even be on public ground, the premise is that they have to be simple, unlocked and available for anybody.

(Private cabins will definetely be locked - these days cabins are often the same standards as modern homes).

Wow, what a wonderful country! I'd love to visit one time.

"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
No Life Club Posts: 2,478
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2020, 11:35:22 AM »
Ben, this really is one of the best posts written about 'bugging out', and opens a whole new chapter for discussion.  As I complained about the practicality of  'come home bag' or 'bug out bag' in another thread, I was thinking maybe an emergency evacuation bag is a more realistic scenario to plan for.  And what you've just described is entirely new level of planning, literally migration due to unforeseen circumstances or life altering events.

I once read somewhere that most Europeans were not aware of or didn't it very seriously about the world war when it first started, and in retrospect, I wonder with all these information technology, will the human race react any differently than those era?  Surely, the options of travelling by cart/donkey/horses are out, and modern convenience might have made us softer and plumper, but can advance planning mitigate the risk of sudden evacuation.

I could do with a lot more historical information to be honest. Most of those with actual experience are probably dead. I have a feeling that for the majority it was a case of putting on a good coat, grabbing food and money and leaving. I'm not even sure how relevant any of the current BOB, GHB, camping equipment would be for such an occurrence. Any kind of military gear ditto. All of these setups are based on equipment designed for use for a very limited time. Even the equipment setups of those who spend long stretches in the wild (trappers, mountain men) would not be relevant for a long trudge on the road.

I think there is also a valid question to be asked as to just how relevant any of this is in today's world. Migration only works if you have somewhere to migrate to which is better than where you've come from. In the case of less developed to more developed countries this is relevant. If we're talking about within developed countries the chances are that whatever disaster has occurred it is either temporary enough that it can be dealt with or so catastrophic that nowhere else is any better either. Perhaps that is the basis of the BO concept. For countries like the US the only way to survive might be alone, migration will simply not be a viable option. I still think it's a fallacy though. Only a small percentage will cope with more than a few days, of those the majority will not survive the catastrophe in any case even hiding in the wild, etc. Personally I'm more of a fan of staying put, the urban environment will be a far better option for survival period for the vast majority.




"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
No Life Club Posts: 1,593
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2020, 11:53:08 AM »
Wow, what a wonderful country! I'd love to visit one time.

Scandinavian countries are usually fairly similar in many ways so I assume you might find similar arrangements in other Scandinavian countries too. Trust is generally high, although we do of course have the full range of humans and human actions here too.

As for trust I visited Sweden recently. I had rented a car and booked a room at a small hotel for a few days. Upon arrival at the airport the rental car company had went home but there was this note to pick up the key at the airport information desk. I showed them ID, picked up the key and drove off. No signature or credit card or anything. Then I arrived at the hotel late at night. Sweden tends to close early so no staff there and outer door was locked - again just a note telling people to pick up their room key from a restaurant next to the hotel. Ok, did that. No check in or whatever. I stayed and drove around for a few days - I didn't see any staff at the hotel at any time, but the room was done while I was out.

When I was to leave there was still no staff. I just left the key in the room and went back to the airport. Still no car rental staff so just dropped the key in the key box and left. Still no credit or signature anywhere. (Got an SMS on the phone some 14 days later that they had forgot to get paid so if I could please send some details about that? :D )

"Simple is hard"
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
No Life Club Posts: 2,478
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2020, 01:24:48 PM »
I've been doing some more thinking about what the modern equivalent of the donkey is for such an occasion and it's probably the scooter/moped. Can carry two Westerners or an entire Indian or Vietnamese family, has incredible mpg, can carry a ridiculous amount (again referencing Vietnam just do an image search), will not be hugely phased by standing traffic or abandoned cars, can tackle off road at a pinch, etc. It's used as the modern 'donkey' throughout Asia and I think for good reason. It also has the advantage of being the 'grey man' of vehicles in an environment where a 4x4 would attract a whole lot more unwanted attention. Most of all, for many, it's cheap enough to buy and store, especially if you get one 2nd hand in good condition. I'd certainly take one over a car if I could in a bad situation. Heck in city I'd take one over a car for the commute! I was going to buy a scooter rather than a car for precisely that reason (urban commute) but other factors intervened and I can't afford to have both.



"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
No Life Club Posts: 2,478
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2020, 01:26:39 PM »
Scandinavian countries are usually fairly similar in many ways so I assume you might find similar arrangements in other Scandinavian countries too. Trust is generally high, although we do of course have the full range of humans and human actions here too.

As for trust I visited Sweden recently. I had rented a car and booked a room at a small hotel for a few days. Upon arrival at the airport the rental car company had went home but there was this note to pick up the key at the airport information desk. I showed them ID, picked up the key and drove off. No signature or credit card or anything. Then I arrived at the hotel late at night. Sweden tends to close early so no staff there and outer door was locked - again just a note telling people to pick up their room key from a restaurant next to the hotel. Ok, did that. No check in or whatever. I stayed and drove around for a few days - I didn't see any staff at the hotel at any time, but the room was done while I was out.

When I was to leave there was still no staff. I just left the key in the room and went back to the airport. Still no car rental staff so just dropped the key in the key box and left. Still no credit or signature anywhere. (Got an SMS on the phone some 14 days later that they had forgot to get paid so if I could please send some details about that? :D )

 :like:

"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
No Life Club Posts: 1,593
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2020, 03:36:14 PM »
I've been doing some more thinking about what the modern equivalent of the donkey is for such an occasion and it's probably the scooter/moped. Can carry two Westerners or an entire Indian or Vietnamese family, has incredible mpg, can carry a ridiculous amount (again referencing Vietnam just do an image search), will not be hugely phased by standing traffic or abandoned cars, can tackle off road at a pinch, etc.

A motorcycle makes a lot of sense. They were also used a lot by reindeer herders here earlier to get around everywhere. These days though most have changed over to 4x4 or 4x6 utility ATVs. Many of the same benefits, but better in some terrain and with more carry capacity at the expense of higher fuel consumption. They would look more out of place in a large city though.

Around here the issue would be more like where to go? Any issue here would likely be the same for quite the distance. I think I would consider a boat - big carry capacity, can keep away or avoid from many potential issues, and can go very far.

"Simple is hard"
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
No Life Club Posts: 2,478
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #50 on: April 22, 2020, 06:00:04 PM »
A motorcycle makes a lot of sense. They were also used a lot by reindeer herders here earlier to get around everywhere. These days though most have changed over to 4x4 or 4x6 utility ATVs. Many of the same benefits, but better in some terrain and with more carry capacity at the expense of higher fuel consumption. They would look more out of place in a large city though.

Around here the issue would be more like where to go? Any issue here would likely be the same for quite the distance. I think I would consider a boat - big carry capacity, can keep away or avoid from many potential issues, and can go very far.

It's a very good question that I've been thinking about for a long while. Where do you go to? Modern surveillance systems makes hiding above ground practically impossible, your heart breaking story of the citizens hiding out in the snow could not happen today. Satellites, planes and drones with IR and other high tech imagery would have found them very fast. The reach of a major nationwide catastrophe, at least in the West, is unlikely to support simply travelling anywhere you can get to either quickly or easily. Any nearby city or town is likely to be quickly overwhelmed by the same problems effecting the place you have left and borders are unlikely to be open. Even discounting issues like our current problem which has practically effected everywhere almost simultaneously from the perspective of escape. In the less developed world there is still more possibility of practical escape and migration because the problems will be more localised by definition.

The problem of where to go is not even a new phenomenon. Europe in WWII. Most simply had nowhere to run to given how fast events were moving and the pace of change would have been glacial in comparison to what was assumed would happen had the cold war turned hot. During WWII there were those in Poland and Russia who escaped to the forests but they were in well motivated groups with contacts in urban areas which probably ensured their survival at all. Ditto larger partisan movements such as in Yugoslavia. They had the numbers and support to survive. The Norwegian Commandos who survived in hiding when their original attempt to sabotage the German Heavy Water plant failed were experienced, very highly trained and again, had the benefit of comradeship.

I think we can assume that any planning for a realistic long term escape has to have the 'where to' at its forefront and there will need to be several options, some of which will only become apparent at a much later stage. The Syrian refugees now housed in Canada for example would never have assumed that it would have been a destination. They were running 'from' until a 'to' became available and it wasn't due to their planning. Refugees from the fighting in Chechnya would not have many options of where to flee to at all.

I'm rambling at this point :D I think my conclusion is that there must be realistic planning of multiple destination scenarios with the realisation that adaptability to cope with spur of the moment changes, often completely outside of any personal control, is utterly crucial. I spoke to a guy on another forum, he had a full supply of bug out/in/armageddon supplies ready. Then there was a fire and it was all gone. He built up the stores once again. Fully ready for months of isolation. Except when the corona isolation started, he was stuck in a Southern state in the US at a conference and couldn't get a flight back. His home with all the supplies was in Alaska.
I think it says it all really. Plan to be flexible when 'it' happens rather than planning to be stuck in a mental rut and unable to cope with the crisis when it hits you in the small of the back as you were looking in the wrong direction.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 06:13:32 PM by pomsbz »

"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
Global Moderator Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 24,630
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #51 on: April 22, 2020, 06:07:30 PM »
I am reminded of what happened in Luisiana with Katrina.  Those that went to the Superdome.  I posted a while back the idea that its possible even if one could leave by vehicle there might be a need to leave the vehicle to reach the destination by foot.  What happens if you are not physically able for whatever reasons?  The idea that everyone will be able to carry something is not a reality.
 
I posted my thought about an alternative to carry. 
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,65333.msg1244811.html#msg1244811

There's no way I'll be carrying a bag.  Well if I have to I will.  Two adults can easily carry enough items to camp where ever. 

Esse Quam Videri
No Life Club Posts: 2,478
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #52 on: April 22, 2020, 06:14:54 PM »
I am reminded of what happened in Luisiana with Katrina.  Those that went to the Superdome.  I posted a while back the idea that its possible even if one could leave by vehicle there might be a need to leave the vehicle to reach the destination by foot.  What happens if you are not physically able for whatever reasons?  The idea that everyone will be able to carry something is not a reality.
 
I posted my thought about an alternative to carry. 
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,65333.msg1244811.html#msg1244811

There's no way I'll be carrying a bag.  Well if I have to I will.  Two adults can easily carry enough items to camp where ever.

Good point. I'm disabled. I can walk a mile or so at a push but not a huge amount more.

"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
No Life Club Posts: 2,478
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2020, 06:18:28 PM »
It's another interesting question. What is the absolute minimum we would leave home with? What is the absolute minimum we could camp or hike with? What are the clothes we would take if that was the only ones we would have for a good long while?

All stuff I've been thinking about as my camping/car bag got heavier and heavier (it's now 10lbs but with my disability that's a lot). A lot of it is comfort rather than sheer necessity.




"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
Sr. Member Posts: 326
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2020, 06:29:53 PM »
I posted my thought about an alternative to carry. 
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,65333.msg1244811.html#msg1244811


The cart is an interesting idea. Would need rubber all terrain never flat tires. and not small or plastic ones. Even in an urban environment, bumps and cracks in sidewalks and roads, door wills and such are easier to navigate with larger air tires.
Global Moderator Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 24,630
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #55 on: April 22, 2020, 06:36:17 PM »
 :salute:.  Preparation in thought then gather supplies then a run through.  We've done this a few times over the last two years since moving to our current home.  Its kinda fun actually.  We realize we are not going to have every detail worked out but we wont be scrambling IF we need to evacuate.  As I mentioned in my link communication was non existent when the power failed.  We have meet up locations and time limits just in case.  We also made preparations for communications at those locations ( think geocache ). 

I wont get into all the scenarios just because.  Suffice to say we may not be home all together or none at all so theres a lot of variables. 

Ok we packed our vehicles and set off.  Not everyone is present and we lost communications.  We go to initial destination.  We wait 3 hours if we can.  We leave note ( think geocache ) with our next move.  We try to pick a location that wont be policed so we can wait the 3 hours.  There are several location within my city that are evacuation points so if all fails we meet in a predetermined one.  If for any reason we need to alter plans we detail it in a geocached note. 

We've done this scenario but we limited the time we wait to 1hr.  We did it on a day when we were off so we could all participate.  I did load my vehicle as did they.             

Esse Quam Videri
Global Moderator Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 24,630
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #56 on: April 22, 2020, 06:38:35 PM »
The cart is an interesting idea. Would need rubber all terrain never flat tires. and not small or plastic ones. Even in an urban environment, bumps and cracks in sidewalks and roads, door wills and such are easier to navigate with larger air tires.

Lots of options for each to terrain.  Airport traveler navigate many of those obstacles with carts and rolling luggage.   

Esse Quam Videri
Global Moderator Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 24,630
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #57 on: April 22, 2020, 06:52:07 PM »
It's another interesting question. What is the absolute minimum we would leave home with? What is the absolute minimum we could camp or hike with? What are the clothes we would take if that was the only ones we would have for a good long while?

All stuff I've been thinking about as my camping/car bag got heavier and heavier (it's now 10lbs but with my disability that's a lot). A lot of it is comfort rather than sheer necessity.

Yes. This is the question.  My emergency evacuations bag is the bare minimum in clothing/sleeping.  My climate is warm mostly but it can get cold and wet.  I am prepared for that.  I have the minimal toiletries.  Food/water/cooking are all 1 person 1 week.  Where will you go?  I've said it many time we'd likely go to an evacuation site but we'd not likely go in.  We'd use the services as needed and car camp.  If we were not able to that then we'd park elsewhere and camp there.  I mention the Superdome but we had evacuees face similar issues here when there were evacuations.  There are predators everywhere.  I wish to not put my family in such situations if we can help ourselves and use their services by day ( toilets/showers/food/etc ). 

I don't see us heading off to the canyons or "woods" to camp.     

Esse Quam Videri
No Life Club Posts: 2,478
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #58 on: April 22, 2020, 07:50:27 PM »
There is probably a whole bunch of information to be garnered from Katrina for the US in particular. Both for 'bugging out' and those who decided to stay. Are there any good resources that specifically reference the experiences there for future evacuation events? Stories from people staying with weeks of no basic essentials such as water, electricity, food and waste facilities would be very valuable for evaluating the cost of simply 'bugging in' with such a crisis. Another thing I just learnt from the Wiki about Katrina was the essential use of AM Radio for people to keep in touch with what was actually happening when cut off from other news. I hadn't thought of a radio as a basic essential before but we can bet that in a huge event phone internet access will be problematic even if there is power.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 08:02:18 PM by pomsbz »

"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
Global Moderator Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 24,630
Re: The reality of bugging out.
« Reply #59 on: April 22, 2020, 08:30:51 PM »
Lots of lessons every time people have to evacuate.  Each region will have their obstacles.  I'm not overly consumed with every possible scenario we may have deal with, too many IFs involved. 

I'd rather stay put at home as my first choice.  We are more than prepared for a car camp scenario however.  Our largest evacuation was 1/2 million residents due to fires.  About 20k went to the local stadium with many never actually going in because it got full fast and some just didn't want to.  They slept in their cars in the parking lot.

An action report was done and I read it throughly.  There was a lot to learn from many angels.  Katrina was mentioned in the report however not having gone thru such an even my city made a lot of errors.  Credit also given to everything that was done amazingly.   

On the good side donations of food was amazing.  The trucks delivering and the cars entering the area caused a massive back up.  You better have a full tank of gas.  The ability of the volunteers and logistics in place could not keep up with receiving of the food. Food just sat being wasted while other food were redistributed to other locations and charities.  Over all there was a lot of waste.  The police and other personnel had massive issues with their cell batteries.  I have solar ability plus battery banks.  Not gonna catch me with a dead cell phone.  Crank radios are something we also have. 

No checks were done on the people going into the shelters.  The incident report stated that security was an issue.  People were allowed to bring their animals into the shelter.  This was a issue for many within the shelter.  The lack of check on the people meant predators were free to do as they do.  There was security within the shelter but.........   

Imagine trying to be with your family in a dormitory situation on a cot with rows and rows of cots.  The smells, the noise, the chaos, and everything else you can imagine on top of the stress.  Are you someone who can do that?  How are you gonna plug in your sleep apnea mask?  You've really got to think well outside the box and be very honest with yourself. 
Are you someone who stresses easily?  Look at the pictures of the Superdome and see if thats something you can cope with?   

In my city there are a lot of folks who speak different languages.  All cultures represented in this city.  Do you like everyone?  Without the needed security there were issues related to this.  Are you a picky eater?  What about your kids?  Do you have dietary restrictions? Special needs? 

Lots of things to think about.  I'll be car camping myself if we have to be evacuated.         

Esse Quam Videri

 

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