Multitool.org Forum
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
+-

Hello Lurker! Remove this ad and much more by logging in.


Gareth's Sword Collection. 3999

Global Moderator Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 24,527
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #120 on: November 09, 2020, 02:31:15 AM »
Nice work.  Removal of that paint sure :like: made quite a difference. 

Esse Quam Videri
Global Moderator He Who Has The Most Nuts, Wins! Posts: 52,541
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #121 on: November 09, 2020, 01:34:51 PM »
Looks much better !    :tu:
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,852
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #122 on: November 09, 2020, 04:11:21 PM »
Oh they were definitely designed with combat in mind.  Would have seen some use in the second Boer War and, more significantly, the Sudan campaign.  The open veldt of the Boer War wasn't the ideal environment for a sword but the Sudan was much more up close and personal.

Have you ever read Khartoum by Michael Asher? It's been ages since I have, but I do remember it being an excellent read and hard to put down.



PS. Do you like my bookmark?  :think:


Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,852
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #123 on: November 09, 2020, 04:17:15 PM »
Also Soilder Sahibs by Charles Allen. I know it's a different campaign, but a fantastic book and I remember there's quite a good bit about swords in battle during the Afghan wars... It also explains what a smelly was.  :facepalm:

Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,928
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #124 on: November 09, 2020, 07:53:29 PM »
Have you ever read Khartoum by Michael Asher? It's been ages since I have, but I do remember it being an excellent read and hard to put down.

(Image removed from quote.)

PS. Do you like my bookmark?  :think:

Also Soilder Sahibs by Charles Allen. I know it's a different campaign, but a fantastic book and I remember there's quite a good bit about swords in battle during the Afghan wars... It also explains what a smelly was.  :facepalm:

Neither of those I have to admit but I'll put them on the embarrassingly long "too read" list.  :tu:

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,928
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #125 on: November 09, 2020, 08:00:01 PM »
On the subject of reading; a very good friend just gave me a copy of Swordsmen of the British Empire.  Nice when your friends know you well.  :D

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,852
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #126 on: November 09, 2020, 08:08:41 PM »
Oooh smurf, that's right up my street!

Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,852
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #127 on: November 10, 2020, 12:02:22 PM »
Neither of those I have to admit but I'll put them on the embarrassingly long "too read" list.  :tu:

After thinking about it, and in light of this very embarrassing revelation (on your part) that you've never read Soilder Sahibs, I think I may have a second copy up north somewhere, I think it's a hardback too. I can send it your way if you like? It won't quite make it for Christmas, but soon after... I can still put a bow on it. :tu:

Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,928
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #128 on: November 10, 2020, 12:46:17 PM »
After thinking about it, and in light of this very embarrassing revelation (on your part) that you've never read Soilder Sahibs, I think I may have a second copy up north somewhere, I think it's a hardback too. I can send it your way if you like? It won't quite make it for Christmas, but soon after... I can still put a bow on it. :tu:

That's extremely generous of you Fuzzy.  I will happily take you up on the offer.  :hatsoff:

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,928
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #129 on: November 10, 2020, 12:50:21 PM »
Have you read "shooting leave" by John Ure?  Very happy to do a book exchange if you haven't.  :)

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,852
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #130 on: November 10, 2020, 02:18:31 PM »
Have you read "shooting leave" by John Ure?  Very happy to do a book exchange if you haven't.  :)

No I haven't actually and it looks very interesting.  :tu: Right... have you read Round the World on a Wheel by John Foster Fraser? Three victorian gentlemen go round the world on bicycles and use fists and bad language to get out of any bother, including a dust-up with some Cossacks and an unfortunate diplomatic insident with a Chinese dog. It's a smurfing great read!  :2tu:

Zombie Apprentice Posts: 13,356
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #131 on: November 21, 2020, 10:31:29 AM »
Gareth, thank you very much for sharing your Sword collection here. Very interesting read and see  :hatsoff:

No I haven't actually and it looks very interesting.  :tu: Right... have you read Round the World on a Wheel by John Foster Fraser? Three victorian gentlemen go round the world on bicycles and use fists and bad language to get out of any bother, including a dust-up with some Cossacks and an unfortunate diplomatic insident with a Chinese dog. It's a smurfing great read!  :2tu:

Now that sounds like the right book for McStitchy  :D

Edit: Found a 1989 edition of it...
« Last Edit: November 21, 2020, 12:02:02 PM by McStitchy »

Formerly known as MTMatt
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,852
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #132 on: November 21, 2020, 09:33:59 PM »
Gareth, thank you very much for sharing your Sword collection here. Very interesting read and see  :hatsoff:

Now that sounds like the right book for McStitchy  :D

Edit: Found a 1989 edition of it...

Oh well done!  :2tu: It's maybe a bit slow to get started, but once they get going, bloody hell. I absolutely pished myself laughing at the incident involving the Chinese dog... others might not find it quite so funny. 

Zombie Apprentice Posts: 13,356
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #133 on: November 22, 2020, 12:56:08 AM »
Looking forward to it  :tu:

Formerly known as MTMatt
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 19,968 Oxygen and magnesium toghether?! OMg!
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #134 on: December 11, 2020, 04:53:23 PM »
No I haven't actually and it looks very interesting.  :tu: Right... have you read Round the World on a Wheel by John Foster Fraser? Three victorian gentlemen go round the world on bicycles and use fists and bad language to get out of any bother, including a dust-up with some Cossacks and an unfortunate diplomatic insident with a Chinese dog. It's a smurfing great read!  :2tu:

Geez... get a library, awlready!

 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

________________________________
It is just a matter of time before they add the word “Syndrome” after my last name.

I don't have OCD, I have OCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ.

Eff the ineffable, scrut the inscrutable.

IYCRTYSWTMTFOT

Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,928
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #135 on: January 07, 2021, 12:33:24 AM »
So, here's my latest.  I will be the first to admit I don't know a lot about Indian swords but I will tell you what I can (having checked the information with collectors who know what they are talking about).  What we have here is generically know as a Tulwar but might be more accurately called a Firangi Siroha.  Firangi for the fact this almost certainly has a imported European blade very likely made in the 18th Centaury.  Siroha is a term that is new to me but I'm told it's what best applies to the shape of the blade from an Indian point of view.  A nice overview can be read here; https://www.fordemilitaryantiques.com/articles/2019/7/12/a-guide-to-indian-sword-blade-types

This is a solid 910g (2lb) and has a 775mm (30 1/2") blade. 

These swords, and the people how wielded them, had a fearsome reputation amongst the British Army in the 19th Century.  Stories of hands, arms, legs and heads being removed at a single stroke seem to be common.  The reasons behind this are various, and there are whole books about it, but it amounts to sharpening, hilt design and technique.  While this is indeed a fearsome cutting sword the design of the hilt makes for a very awkward thrusting blade.






Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Global Moderator He Who Has The Most Nuts, Wins! Posts: 52,541
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #136 on: January 07, 2021, 01:55:59 PM »
Cool sword !     :like:
Global Moderator Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 24,527
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #137 on: January 07, 2021, 03:26:51 PM »
Nice addition to your collection. 

Esse Quam Videri
Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,928
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #138 on: January 09, 2021, 05:07:33 PM »
Cheers gents.  :cheers:

Unfortunately the blade on the tulwar had some active rust hiding under the patina and it can't be left unchecked.  I'm not a massive fan of removing patina just for the sake if it but it's better than letting the blade corrode.  I'm not aiming for a completely bright blade, just looking to arrest the pitting.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2021, 05:34:51 PM by Gareth »

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,776
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #139 on: January 10, 2021, 06:12:17 PM »
Cheers gents.  :cheers:

Unfortunately the blade on the tulwar had some active rust hiding under the patina and it can't be left unchecked.  I'm not a massive fan of removing patina just for the sake if it but it's better than letting the blade corrode.  I'm not aiming for a completely bright blade, just looking to arrest the pitting.

(Image removed from quote.)
Gareth, very cool find!   :like:

I am always curious about Tulwar where the counter balance/pommel at the end being so wide and the handle is relatively short, does it ever hit your forearm/wrist if you move it the 'wrong' way?  Though it may look different, I have always think it is quite multi functional and well thought out.

Also, how do you discover the rust under the patina?  Does it 'rust thru'?  I'm asking in case some of my older knives need maintenance without me knowing.  Thank you in advance!

Join Daredevil Challenge in August and get Free magnets!
Comis Gear Youtube Channel
Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,928
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #140 on: January 11, 2021, 01:52:17 PM »
Gareth, very cool find!   :like:

I am always curious about Tulwar where the counter balance/pommel at the end being so wide and the handle is relatively short, does it ever hit your forearm/wrist if you move it the 'wrong' way?  Though it may look different, I have always think it is quite multi functional and well thought out.

Also, how do you discover the rust under the patina?  Does it 'rust thru'?  I'm asking in case some of my older knives need maintenance without me knowing.  Thank you in advance!

OK, this is a BIG question.  :D  The really short answer is; the hilt is so closely fitted to the hand there is only one way you can possibly hold it and you really can't do it wrong.  The bigger question is; why?

I'll do my best to answer.  It's all about cutting.  So as you can hopefully see the close hilt has locked my wrist in the attack and formed an angle between my forearm and the blade.  There is no physical way I can make it straighter (though obviously I can pull is back to make more of a right angle between blade and forearm for defending myself)


Compare this to the second photo of me holding a contemporary British Sabre.  At full extension I can form a near straight line from elbow to sword tip. 


With me so far?  Good.  Here's the bit where you might need to use your imagination or a prop (such as a stick) and try it for yourself.  So when hitting your target you are looking to strike around 2/3 to 3/4 of the way up the blade with almost any type of sword.  However the angled wrist then means the blade is drawn through the target as you swing, making a REALLY deep cut.  With a straight wrist it's very easy to land a blow "dead" with no draw.  More like chopping with an axe.  In Europe we were taught that the draw cut was more effective but it's actually quite hard to do in the middle of a swing, even when you aren't under pressure.  The tulwar hilt takes all the thinking out of it 'cos it's almost impossible to do anything else.

So why aren't more swords made this way?  As with anything, it's a design compromise.  For one; you are giving up a little bit of reach so you need to get in a few inches closer to your opponent (who likely isn't happy about the fact you are trying to hit him with a sword and might be inclined to try and do something about it).  Secondly, and even more of and issue, is that it's VERY hard to thrust with the point.  Nearly impossible in fact.  Not without very nearly getting close enough to give the other guy a hug. ;)

Hope that helps.  :hatsoff:
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 01:57:45 PM by Gareth »

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,928
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #141 on: January 11, 2021, 01:59:42 PM »
Gareth, very cool find!   :like:

I am always curious about Tulwar where the counter balance/pommel at the end being so wide and the handle is relatively short, does it ever hit your forearm/wrist if you move it the 'wrong' way?  Though it may look different, I have always think it is quite multi functional and well thought out.

Also, how do you discover the rust under the patina?  Does it 'rust thru'?  I'm asking in case some of my older knives need maintenance without me knowing.  Thank you in advance!

That's easier to answer.  :D  Look out for any rough texture, that'll be rust forming and it's not going to go away on it's own.  :)  Even once you get rid of it you'll almost certainly have some pitting left behind but at least it's not going to get any worse.

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,776
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #142 on: January 11, 2021, 04:30:04 PM »
OK, this is a BIG question.  :D  The really short answer is; the hilt is so closely fitted to the hand there is only one way you can possibly hold it and you really can't do it wrong.  The bigger question is; why?

I'll do my best to answer.  It's all about cutting.  So as you can hopefully see the close hilt has locked my wrist in the attack and formed an angle between my forearm and the blade.  There is no physical way I can make it straighter (though obviously I can pull is back to make more of a right angle between blade and forearm for defending myself)
(Image removed from quote.)

Compare this to the second photo of me holding a contemporary British Sabre.  At full extension I can form a near straight line from elbow to sword tip. 
(Image removed from quote.)

With me so far?  Good.  Here's the bit where you might need to use your imagination or a prop (such as a stick) and try it for yourself.  So when hitting your target you are looking to strike around 2/3 to 3/4 of the way up the blade with almost any type of sword.  However the angled wrist then means the blade is drawn through the target as you swing, making a REALLY deep cut.  With a straight wrist it's very easy to land a blow "dead" with no draw.  More like chopping with an axe.  In Europe we were taught that the draw cut was more effective but it's actually quite hard to do in the middle of a swing, even when you aren't under pressure.  The tulwar hilt takes all the thinking out of it 'cos it's almost impossible to do anything else.

So why aren't more swords made this way?  As with anything, it's a design compromise.  For one; you are giving up a little bit of reach so you need to get in a few inches closer to your opponent (who likely isn't happy about the fact you are trying to hit him with a sword and might be inclined to try and do something about it).  Secondly, and even more of and issue, is that it's VERY hard to thrust with the point.  Nearly impossible in fact.  Not without very nearly getting close enough to give the other guy a hug. ;)

Hope that helps.  :hatsoff:
Gareth, thanks for a length reply, most appreciated!

Now that it is in hand, the concept is much clearer.  What I find fascinating is your particular sample has a common body swept, while the body is angled as such that the tip is still inline with the handle. 

Even though the disk may limit the wrist motion, I could still see how that inline tip could somewhat help the user to aim a thrust better, from an angle(since wrist motion may be limited), while the swept of the body preserve the characteristic of a classic draw cut weapon. 

In some way, tulwars may sort of reaffirm why most katana are curved, instead of straight.  I often see people say how Katana is often curved because of its differential tempering(softer at spine to prevent breaking on impact), though I would also think it too has something to do with how classical Japanese techniques favor draw cut.  Anyhow, I could be totally off, but I am more than sure it is formidable in capable hands(as all weapons), definitely hate to see it swinging live in person. :D



And thanks again for the rust under patina answer too!  :cheers:

Join Daredevil Challenge in August and get Free magnets!
Comis Gear Youtube Channel
Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,928
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #143 on: January 11, 2021, 05:06:45 PM »
Yeah, a curved blade will definitely aid in drawing the cut, though it's still possible to do it with a straight sword.  Personally I've no doubt that the Japanese could have made their swords straight if they'd wanted too.  :D

Another thought about curved blades is that of edge alignment.  That is; when swinging you don't want to have the blade twisted over to the left or right.  There is a strong argument that the wider the blade the easier it is to have good edge alignment.  A curved blade maximises this.  So while this sabre blade is only 1 1/4" wide the space it occupies is 2 1/2".  I'm not certain about the physics of this, but I do know that it feels plausible when swinging a sword.


Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,776
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #144 on: January 11, 2021, 06:41:05 PM »
Another great point, and I could totally see that.

With that tight of a tilt, the thumb is very likely resting right on the guard which probably would further help alignment.  I think there is some merit in wider body design for draw cut weapon too, where there will be more weight and integrity of the body to withstand the impact and potentially less vibration.  Furthermore, the curve will help guide the continuation of the cut, especially when it is embedded in something...yikes.

I am thinking tulwars probably would make a pretty ideal weapon for infantry.  Built pretty robust, technique is reinforced by physical design, versatile both of horseback and on foot.  In Chinese martial art, there is a saying that "hundred days for stick(or Jo in Japanese martial art), thousand days with a board sword("Dao"), and ten thousand days with a Chinese sword("Jian")".  I always think there is some truth to that, and in this case, the Tulwar resembles a Dao more than a Jian to me.

Join Daredevil Challenge in August and get Free magnets!
Comis Gear Youtube Channel
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 19,670 Armed with camera and not afraid to use it.
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #145 on: January 11, 2021, 07:18:12 PM »
I also have a Tulwar and find the handle too small for my bear paws.

A little Leatherman information.

Leatherman series articles
Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,928
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #146 on: January 11, 2021, 07:31:04 PM »
I also have a Tulwar and find the handle too small for my bear paws.

I'm not surprised.  I've got small-ish mitts and I can only just about hold it comfortably.  There is, obviously, a range of sizes they come in, but very few seem to what anyone would call "large".

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 19,968 Oxygen and magnesium toghether?! OMg!
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #147 on: January 15, 2021, 04:51:44 PM »
I'm not surprised.  I've got small-ish mitts and I can only just about hold it comfortably.  There is, obviously, a range of sizes they come in, but very few seem to what anyone would call "large".



 :whistle:

________________________________
It is just a matter of time before they add the word “Syndrome” after my last name.

I don't have OCD, I have OCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ.

Eff the ineffable, scrut the inscrutable.

IYCRTYSWTMTFOT

Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,928
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #148 on: January 15, 2021, 06:33:52 PM »

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,928
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #149 on: April 26, 2021, 12:13:36 PM »
I got a new one.  :D  When I say "new" I obviously mean around 240 years old.  This is a sword that conforms to the British 1786 regulation; that is 1" wide at the shoulder, 32" long straight blade that is capable of cutting and thrusting and a hilt coloured to match uniform buttons (gilt or bright steel).


With so vague a regulation on the hilt you see a lot of variation in design, but the "five ball" motif seems to have been very popular and has become a catch-all term for these swords.  So this one weighs in at around 1lb 3oz (530g) and blade is 32 1/2" (825mm) long.  Most of these swords were single edged but, as discussed previously and seen here, some officers preferred a double edged blade.


  These 1786 sword tend to weigh less then the later 1796 by dint of having lighter hilts.  If I have a criticism of this particular sword I'd say it's a touch too flexible in the thrust.  The square section grip is, IMO, far more comfortable than the oval ones commonly seen on the 1796 swords.  The grip is made of ivory with a "reeded" pattern cut into it.  Depending on taste and/or regiment ebony was also used.


Further reading on the British sword patterns can be found here: https://www.fordemilitaryantiques.com/articles/2019/3/19/identifying-british-infantry-officers-swords
Mathew Forde (the author) is very lucky to own an identical sword to mine but in near pristine condition, seen at the very top of his article. 
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 02:29:30 PM by Gareth »

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...

 

Donations

Operational Funds

Help us keep the Unworkable working!
Donate with PayPal!
May Goal: $300.00
Due Date: May 31
Total Receipts: $79.60
PayPal Fees: $5.65
Net Balance: $73.95
Below Goal: $226.05
Site Currency: USD
25% 
May Donations

Community Links


Powered by EzPortal
SMF 2.0.17 | SMF © 2020, Simple Machines
Page created in 0.052 seconds with 33 queries.
© 2018 Defender Web & Tool