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Gareth's Sword Collection. 4002

Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,054
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2020, 01:20:02 AM »
Excellent, enjoying very much!     :like:

What? Enablers! Are you serrrrious? Where? I dont see any.
Hold Fast
Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2020, 02:27:16 PM »
So now we are going to see just how much flexibility there was in the interpretation of the 1796 regulation for officers sword.  The option of a double edged blade was always there but they seem to have been MUCH  less commonly used.  While the previous spadroons could fairly be called cut-and-thrust weapons this sword, by the weight distribution and the way it handles, is clearly optimised for a thrust bias with some cutting ability.  However the very stiff blade and fine point would punch through several layers of heavy woolen uniform, a problem often overlooked. 

Also the guard is notably different in a few ways.  Firstly; it has one side that can fold down flat.  This was actually quite a common feature that was chosen as the shell was known to rub uncomfortably when being worn at the hip and damage the wearer's coat.  Trivial as this might seem keep in mind that the officer was responsible for the purchase of his own uniform and they weren't cheap!  99% of the time you are wearing your sword, not holding it, and all that time it's potentially costing you money.  The big downside is that the folding guard was poorly executed and shockingly weak.  While this hilt is the same general shape as the previous one you can hopefully see that it's also very different in a may dimensions. 

The fold flat guard also give another very interesting thought.  On this particular sword it's clearly set up to sit flat against the right hip, indicating it was for a left handed gentleman.  The replacement leather grip (in lieu of the missing silver wire) of would seem to back this up.  Now there are definitely some other military sword that were specifically made for the left handed, but they are incredibly unusual.  It's possible that this sword was taken apart at some point in it's life and reassembled incorrectly but if it was then it was a long time ago and I can't see any evidence of it.  If only it could speak.  :)








Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2020, 02:33:25 PM »
Extra pics.



« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 02:55:31 PM by Gareth »

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Global Moderator He Who Has The Most Nuts, Wins! Posts: 52,600
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2020, 03:46:20 AM »
Very cool !  :like:
Just Bananas Posts: 75,765
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2020, 04:33:39 PM »
Very nice  :like: :tu:

fail to prepare prepare to fail
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,054
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2020, 07:07:06 AM »
 :tu:    :like:

What? Enablers! Are you serrrrious? Where? I dont see any.
Hold Fast
OCD Squad Leader Admin Team Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,820
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2020, 10:27:11 AM »
Yeah, this and the messer are from the same lineage.  The residual guard is part of why some see it as a poor choice for fighting and, while I utterly take the point, guards are somewhat secondary to good technique in parrying with the blade.  The viewpoint gets skewed when modern martial artist fence over and over and get struck in the hand, so they understandably think less of a sword with poor hand protection.  However a genuine life and death struggle is either going to be very short and bloody or very nervous and protracted.
Yeah, in HEMA the hands are popular targets if you want to play it safe (e.g. if you nee only one more point for the victory). I would assume that a lot of things we learn from HEMA translates to dueling. But battlefields are a completely different beast.

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OCD Squad Leader Admin Team Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,820
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2020, 10:35:08 AM »
The fold flat guard also give another very interesting thought.  On this particular sword it's clearly set up to sit flat against the right hip, indicating it was for a left handed gentleman.  The replacement leather grip (in lieu of the missing silver wire) of would seem to back this up.  Now there are definitely some other military sword that were specifically made for the left handed, but they are incredibly unusual.
Maybe it was for the even rarer dual-wielding  :D... which I, until recently thought is bonkers... but apparently it existed.
The example below is dated 1579, and if you look carefully you can see that the swords can be linked together at the handle.

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OCD Squad Leader Admin Team Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,820
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2020, 10:38:29 AM »
(Image removed from quote.)
That is a gorgeous one... definitively my favorite so far.

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Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2020, 01:08:20 PM »
Maybe it was for the even rarer dual-wielding  :D... which I, until recently thought is bonkers... but apparently it existed.
The example below is dated 1579, and if you look carefully you can see that the swords can be linked together at the handle.

Or to give it it's proper title a "case of rapiers". :D  Very in vogue in the 16th Century dueling scene but never intended to be used in battle.  The likes of Di Grassi recommends it as good practice in general and also because you might be challenged by someone who has taken the time to become proficient.  I've tried it and fought against it but, if using properly weighted C16th rapiers, it'd be my last choice of off handed item.  Give me a dagger, buckler, cloak or target over a second sword.

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2020, 01:19:08 PM »
That is a gorgeous one... definitively my favorite so far.

I love it too...aesthetically speaking anyway. ;)  As a fighting sword I have my issues.  It's only 480g (and most of that's in the hand) so while it would definitely be capable of slashing cuts it lacks any mass at the point of percussion to make for any kind of true impact.  It's also very whippy so if your hand isn't perfectly behind the point it'll almost be guaranteed to flex rather than penetrate even a light coat.  Still a lovely piece to own though. :)

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2020, 01:31:31 PM »
Yeah, in HEMA the hands are popular targets if you want to play it safe (e.g. if you nee only one more point for the victory). I would assume that a lot of things we learn from HEMA translates to dueling. But battlefields are a completely different beast.

Yeah, I can't see anyone choosing to duel with this but as a self defense weapon it makes sense to me.  If we stop thinking about it as a little sword and look at it as a smurfing huge knife then I think you suddenly feel better armed.  :D

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
OCD Squad Leader Admin Team Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,820
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2020, 02:15:36 PM »
Yeah, I can't see anyone choosing to duel with this but as a self defense weapon it makes sense to me.  If we stop thinking about it as a little sword and look at it as a smurfing huge knife then I think you suddenly feel better armed.  :D
I'm pretty illiterate when it comes to anything newer than the medieval time. Was this a primary battlefield weapon for an officer? I would presume they also carried pistols.

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Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2020, 05:35:57 PM »
 :like:

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Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2020, 05:37:06 PM »
I'm pretty illiterate when it comes to anything newer than the medieval time. Was this a primary battlefield weapon for an officer? I would presume they also carried pistols.

They were popular side arms for Army and Navy officers, but not primary weapons per se.  Arguable an officers primary weapon was the troops he commanded, but even of we ignore that then he likely had other things to use.  As you say a pistol wouldn't be unusual but also, in the British army in the 1770s, an officer should be carrying a Spontoon.  https://collections.royalarmouries.org/battle-of-waterloo/arms-and-armour/type/rac-narrative-591.html  My understanding is though that the spontoon wasn't well liked by all and, depending on the Colonel in charge, not always used. 

All that said these were also the primary choice in the civilian world where travelling between cities etc.  So when things were a possibly a little rougher than the Edinburgh New Town then the cuttoe was often preferred to the smallsword. 

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
OCD Squad Leader Admin Team Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,820
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2020, 09:25:08 PM »
They were popular side arms for Army and Navy officers, but not primary weapons per se.  Arguable an officers primary weapon was the troops he commanded, but even of we ignore that then he likely had other things to use.  As you say a pistol wouldn't be unusual but also, in the British army in the 1770s, an officer should be carrying a Spontoon.  https://collections.royalarmouries.org/battle-of-waterloo/arms-and-armour/type/rac-narrative-591.html  My understanding is though that the spontoon wasn't well liked by all and, depending on the Colonel in charge, not always used. 

All that said these were also the primary choice in the civilian world where travelling between cities etc.  So when things were a possibly a little rougher than the Edinburgh New Town then the cuttoe was often preferred to the smallsword.
When I hear spontoon I think of Bugs Bunny digging a hole with a spoon :P

I can easily  see why a cuttoe would be carried, seems like it would be far less obtrusive than something with a more complicated hilt.

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Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2020, 09:51:36 PM »
Staying with the British Army but shifting forward now into the 19th Century we come to the 1822 infantry officer's sabre.  This was the replacement for both the 1796 sword and the 1803 sabre.  It was the first of what are now known as the "gothic hilt" family of sabres which still survives in some parts of the service today.  It has a three bar hilt with a clear bias for protecting the outside of the right hand and initially commonly had a small folding section on the inside over the thumb.  As before this was intended to protect the uniform but unlike the 1796 it's small and reasonably tough.  As the years went by this feature fell out of favour though was never regulated against.  On this particular example we can see the Royal Cypher of Queen Victoria. 

The blade on this is what is know as a "pipeback".  You can hopefully see that it has what is intended to be a strong, stiff rib running the whole length of the blade.  While the pipeback seems to have been successfully employed in some sabre designs it doesn't seem to work well on the 1822.  It's certainly more flexible than they intended and, as we'll see later, it was updated in 1845.  While this is technically a sabre by dint of having a curve to the blade it's so close to straight it almost makes no difference. 






Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Hero Member Posts: 761 Brick Bradford of multitool universe
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2020, 07:32:46 AM »
Gareth, this is a spiffing thread! Great photos and most interesting information. Thank you, and keep them coming!

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by this axe I rule
Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2020, 12:11:13 PM »
Gareth, this is a spiffing thread! Great photos and most interesting information. Thank you, and keep them coming!

Lähetetty minun SM-T515 laitteesta Tapatalkilla

Cheer Lefty.  :hatsoff:  A few more to come.  :whistle:

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2020, 12:56:27 PM »
Moving up into the middle of the 19th Century and I have a few swords to look at still.  :D  First up we are going to look at the habit of giving out short "hanger" swords to infantry troops.  These came in and out of favour  for a few hundred years roughly depending upon what type of bayonet was being used with the soldier's musket or rifle.  If you had a sword-bayonet then the additional hanger was superfluous, but if you had a spike bayonet then an additional sidearm was often seen as necessary. 

One of the two main types of military hanger of the C19th was the "sabre-briquet" or simply briquet.  Mostly associated with the Grande Armee of Napoleon they actually saw widespread use all across Europe for the next hundred years or so.  They are so ubiquitous in fact they can be very hard to identify as to who used a particular sword or even when.  Happily for me this briquet comes with some identity stamps.  Thanks to a Swiss collector of Swiss arms I can tell you that this is a 1842/52 sabre-briquet issued in the canton of Zurich.  Like many arms of the time though this was made in Solingen, Germany.  Yes, this really is a Swiss Army...knife?  :think: 

Made with a cast brass hilt and very solid steel blade these are hefty things to add to your kit and I doubt many soldiers really appreciated them.  They were however used as a tool far more often than as a weapon.  Weighing in at 1kg or 2lb 3oz you'd certainly know you were carrying it.






Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 19,692 Armed with camera and not afraid to use it.
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #50 on: August 18, 2020, 01:38:47 PM »
That kind of reminds me of this video about the French 1850's Arcelin Mousqueton with the biggest bayonet ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuXFSmhS_1c

The video starts to talk about the saber bayonet at around 7:45.  :hatsoff:
« Last Edit: August 18, 2020, 01:44:53 PM by Chako »

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Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #51 on: August 18, 2020, 01:51:09 PM »
That kind of reminds me of this video about the French 1850's Arcelin Mousqueton with the biggest bayonet ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuXFSmhS_1c

roll to 7:45 if all you are interested in is the bayonet.

Yes, that's definitely an extreme sword bayonet.  :D  Bayonets aren't part of my collecting and research but I do find it interesting how the much the cycle of socket/spike vs bladed/sword seems to have gone round and round. 

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 19,692 Armed with camera and not afraid to use it.
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #52 on: August 18, 2020, 02:45:56 PM »
Definitely related.  :D

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Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #53 on: August 20, 2020, 11:51:57 AM »
Bugger, I knew this would happen; I forgot one. :doh:

Lets rewind back to the later half of the 18th Century and look at the third of my smallswords.  Over the century the trend was to smaller hilts and, most tellingly, the "finger rings".  Interestingly these weren't intended for you to hook your finger through and hadn't been used that way since the days of the rapier.  Shown below is the grip taught by every single smallsword fencing master, no matter the actual size of the rings.  The hilt is made of gilt covered brass.

Different countries had broadly identifiable trends and schools of thought about fencing.  So the Germans, Italians and French etc all had recognisable terminology and methods of fencing.  The French school of thought in the second half of the C18th was for shorter and faster blades.  Again we have some very nice chisel work on this triangular section blade.








Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 19,692 Armed with camera and not afraid to use it.
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #54 on: August 20, 2020, 12:45:59 PM »
That makes sense. I tried putting a finger in my Cold Steel version and found it quite limiting and uncomfortable. I had always assumed you placed a finger (or 2) in there. Thanks for clearing that bit up for me.  :like:

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Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #55 on: August 20, 2020, 01:46:05 PM »
That makes sense. I tried putting a finger in my Cold Steel version and found it quite limiting and uncomfortable. I had always assumed you placed a finger (or 2) in there. Thanks for clearing that bit up for me.  :like:

No worries.  If you were holding a rapier you'd hook your index finger through the ring and it would give a nicely balanced grip for a longer, heavier blade for both cut and thrust play.  However for a light blade and point play the pinch grip gives much finer control. 

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
OCD Squad Leader Admin Team Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,820
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #56 on: August 20, 2020, 02:39:06 PM »
No worries.  If you were holding a rapier you'd hook your index finger through the ring and it would give a nicely balanced grip for a longer, heavier blade for both cut and thrust play.  However for a light blade and point play the pinch grip gives much finer control.
Hahaha.... first thing I thought, these people must have had skinny fingers, but that makes a lot of sense.

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OCD Squad Leader Admin Team Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,820
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #57 on: August 20, 2020, 02:39:34 PM »
Bugger, I knew this would happen; I forgot one. :doh:
How could you, she is a beauty  :twak:

Emergency Kit: Ovo Sport, chocolate, cheese, crispbread and a coin
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 19,692 Armed with camera and not afraid to use it.
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #58 on: August 20, 2020, 03:17:33 PM »
Now that I see it, it makes a lot of sense. It prevents the blade from twisting on you..as the handles on these type of swords tend on the skinny side.

A little Leatherman information.

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Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #59 on: August 20, 2020, 03:43:22 PM »

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