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Gareth's Sword Collection. 4001

Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #60 on: August 20, 2020, 03:48:00 PM »
Now that I see it, it makes a lot of sense. It prevents the blade from twisting on you..as the handles on these type of swords tend on the skinny side.

Exactly.  It also does a very good job of replacing your index finger with a very pointy bit of steel and most of us can point at what we want to hit.  :)

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 20,009 Oxygen and magnesium toghether?! OMg!
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #61 on: August 20, 2020, 04:48:25 PM »
Bugger, I knew this would happen; I forgot one. :doh:

Lets rewind back to the later half of the 18th Century and look at the third of my smallswords.  Over the century the trend was to smaller hilts and, most tellingly, the "finger rings".  Interestingly these weren't intended for you to hook your finger through and hadn't been used that way since the days of the rapier.  Shown below is the grip taught by every single smallsword fencing master, no matter the actual size of the rings.  The hilt is made of gilt covered brass.

Different countries had broadly identifiable trends and schools of thought about fencing.  So the Germans, Italians and French etc all had recognisable terminology and methods of fencing.  The French school of thought in the second half of the C18th was for shorter and faster blades.  Again we have some very nice chisel work on this triangular section blade.

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

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(Image removed from quote.)

Interesting the pommel positioning in the wrist. Is it intended? To provide more stability to the blade? I only thought of it as a counter-weight, to position the balance point of the sword.

________________________________
It is just a matter of time before they add the word “Syndrome” after my last name.

I don't have OCD, I have OCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ.

Eff the ineffable, scrut the inscrutable.

IYCRTYSWTMTFOT

Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #62 on: August 20, 2020, 05:38:01 PM »
Interesting the pommel positioning in the wrist. Is it intended? To provide more stability to the blade? I only thought of it as a counter-weight, to position the balance point of the sword.

Yes you are right, the pommel does indeed add weight to the hilt to help balance the sword.  This hold is particular to the smallsword and helps index the sword and point onto the end of you arm so the blade makes a nice straight line with your forearm.  Push your arm out and the sword point will be directly in line.  Stabbing your opponent becomes as easy as pointing at them. ;)

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #63 on: August 20, 2020, 05:47:28 PM »
I will also add this is only one grip, there are quite a few others.  This one is the position of sixte.

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 20,009 Oxygen and magnesium toghether?! OMg!
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #64 on: August 21, 2020, 12:44:42 PM »
I will also add this is only one grip, there are quite a few others.  This one is the position of sixte.

I'm affraid to ask how you know so much about blades...



 :ahhh :ahhh :ahhh :ahhh

________________________________
It is just a matter of time before they add the word “Syndrome” after my last name.

I don't have OCD, I have OCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ.

Eff the ineffable, scrut the inscrutable.

IYCRTYSWTMTFOT

Global Moderator He Who Has The Most Nuts, Wins! Posts: 52,599
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #65 on: August 21, 2020, 10:20:17 PM »
Really enjoying this thread !    :tu:
Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #66 on: August 21, 2020, 10:34:21 PM »

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #67 on: August 21, 2020, 11:37:44 PM »
So, our brief trip back to the C18th aside, lets look at my next military sidearm.  Second to the sabre-briquet in terms of popularity has to be the "gladius" hilt (as it's known to collectors and museums) though it truth it's something more akin to the Greek xiphos to my eye.  Driven by the neoclassical craze of the time this hilt style seems to have begun, once again, in France with the 1816 Artillery sword known informally as the coupe-chou (cabbage cutter).  This hilt was married to many different blade lengths and styles; double edged, single edged and saw back depending on which country was buying it and for who. 

This particular sword seems to have been commissioned for the British Land Transport Corps in 1855.  I say "seems" as there are at least two quite different swords that get that credit and there is a a whole lot of doubt that the LTC were ever issued any swords at all.  Though that's not to say there weren't swords commissioned for them that remained un-issued.  Whatever it's true origin this is a notably large and weighty version. 




Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,053
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #68 on: August 22, 2020, 11:00:47 PM »
 8)  I like that one!

What? Enablers! Are you serrrrious? Where? I dont see any.
Hold Fast
OCD Squad Leader Admin Team Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,820
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #69 on: August 23, 2020, 09:17:30 AM »
[...]Second to the sabre-briquet in terms of popularity has to be the "gladius" hilt (as it's known to collectors and museums) though it truth it's something more akin to the Greek xiphos to my eye.[...]
Most people probably never heard of a Xiphos... and you know how the saying goes: "It is all Greek to me"

Emergency Kit: Ovo Sport, chocolate, cheese, crispbread and a coin
Global Moderator Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 24,575
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #70 on: August 23, 2020, 03:12:02 PM »
Thats a lovely one.  Its interesting to think men carried swords and how gruesome fights could be with them.  I was reading recently about how in Western marriage tradition the bride stands on the left of her groom.  Guess he wanted access to his side arm should be need it.  Not sure how true this is but it seems to be a prevalent belief.   

Esse Quam Videri
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 20,009 Oxygen and magnesium toghether?! OMg!
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #71 on: August 25, 2020, 06:03:46 PM »
Thats a lovely one.  Its interesting to think men carried swords and how gruesome fights could be with them.  I was reading recently about how in Western marriage tradition the bride stands on the left of her groom.  Guess he wanted access to his side arm should be need it.  Not sure how true this is but it seems to be a prevalent belief.   

No, he just wanted her close to his heart!

 :pok: :pok:

________________________________
It is just a matter of time before they add the word “Syndrome” after my last name.

I don't have OCD, I have OCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ.

Eff the ineffable, scrut the inscrutable.

IYCRTYSWTMTFOT

OCD Squad Leader Admin Team Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,820
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #72 on: August 25, 2020, 06:57:37 PM »
No, he just wanted her close to his heart!

 :pok: :pok:
The heart is in the middle, you know...

Emergency Kit: Ovo Sport, chocolate, cheese, crispbread and a coin
Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #73 on: August 25, 2020, 08:44:35 PM »
OK, enough of the swords for the troops, lets get back to the officers.  Cast your mind back to the 1822 "gothic" hilted sabre we looked at with it's rather unusual pipeback blade.  If you've been paying attention you might remember I mentioned that the pipeback wasn't a huge success. Well, in 1845 a design by Henry Wilkinson was accepted as the new standard, though there would have been no expectation of existing sabres to be updated.  Gone is the pipeback and a single, wide fuller with a strong spearpoint blade was the new norm.  This resulted in a far stiffer blade and was widely seen as a great improvement.  We also see the use of the brass "proof" slug as a supposed mark of tested quality. 


The next thing to look at on this sabre is the hilt.  In 1827 the rifle regiments decided that they wanted something exclusive again and opted for a steel, rather than brass, hilt.  Also they went with the tied bugle horn badge of the light infantry rather than the royal cypher.  All a bit egotistical if you ask me.  :D  The service of the 1827 hilt lasts right up to today.  Collectors will often combine the date of the blade along with the style of hilt to help identify the rough age of this pattern that has been around for nearly two centuries. So; 1827, 1827/45, or 1827/92.  Going with this naming system we could call my sabre here an 1827/45.


Now, as you'll see from my photos, this is not a very fine example.  It's low on detail on the hilt compared to many, it's been painted at some point in it's life and the shagreen grip is all but gone.  :-\  Given these are pretty common sabres why did I buy this one?  Well I bought it because it, very faintly, has the title "Leith Volunteer" etched on it's blade.  Leith is my home town and I couldn't miss out on a bit of local history.  :)  The Volunteer part of this I've done a little reading about but in no way do I feel qualified to say much about it.  Further reading on this subject is definitely recommended though.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volunteer_Force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Battalion,_Royal_Scots


Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 19,692 Armed with camera and not afraid to use it.
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #74 on: August 25, 2020, 08:49:17 PM »
 :like:

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Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #75 on: August 25, 2020, 09:27:15 PM »

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 19,692 Armed with camera and not afraid to use it.
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #76 on: August 25, 2020, 09:37:04 PM »
I get a little excited whenever I see that little green tag next to this forum because off this thread.  :D

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Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #77 on: August 25, 2020, 09:40:21 PM »
I get a little excited whenever I see that little green tag next to this forum because off this thread.  :D

 :D

I'm sorry to say we're definitely on the home straight now and the finish line is in sight.  Just two or three to go (assuming I'm not forgetting any others)

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
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Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #78 on: August 26, 2020, 01:20:17 AM »
Very interesting sword Gareth!     :tu:

What? Enablers! Are you serrrrious? Where? I dont see any.
Hold Fast
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 19,692 Armed with camera and not afraid to use it.
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #79 on: August 26, 2020, 01:43:05 AM »
I still think you should continue with your more modern pieces afterwards.

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Global Moderator He Who Has The Most Nuts, Wins! Posts: 52,599
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #80 on: August 26, 2020, 02:41:09 AM »
Another cool one !  :like:
Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #81 on: August 26, 2020, 03:18:43 PM »
So most of the swords we have looked at have been purely military or at least commonly carried by military officers, they youngest of the smallswords being the only real exception.  Well this next one is definitively civilian only; a Police sword.  I read of these as being known short swords, hangers and cutlasses and it doesn't really seem to matter.  There is also some debate as to where and when Police were issued with these.  Perhaps only in times of genuine crisis, perhaps when going into the darker corners of Victorian London late at night.  The exact circumstances may have varied over time and place but what seems to be universally true is that they were never a day-to-day item.  Given that it really is quite a short blade (23 1/2" or 595mm) it's also interesting that there is a photograph of constables practising for use on horseback (looking at the splayed feet as if in stirrups and left hand holding reins).  The exact date these came into use seems debated as well but it's very likely some time in the 1830s or so depending on where you were in the country.





As I mentioned above this is a rather short but very handy sword that very nicely balanced.  Lighter than either of the two military hangers we've already looked at, it still feels robust and the blade is stiff so that it would be very good with the point.  Can you tell I like it?  One very unusual feature of these swords is the fact they have a safety catch! (though a little delicate and broken on mine so I'll add a stock photo).  When worn on the left hip there was a button that you'd need to press with your right thumb in order to release the sword from it's scabbard.  Very useful to stop miscreants or thugs from stealing your sword.



I don't know how relevant this is outside of the UK and to those of us of a certain age but I love the fact that two of these were the basis for the swords carried by Nasir in Robin of Sherwood.  :D

« Last Edit: August 26, 2020, 03:28:22 PM by Gareth »

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Global Moderator He Who Has The Most Nuts, Wins! Posts: 52,599
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #82 on: August 26, 2020, 11:52:38 PM »
 I  :like: it 
Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #83 on: August 27, 2020, 09:18:11 AM »
:like: it
Cheers mate.  It's definitely one of my favourites.  It strikes a great balance of light enough and short enough for ease of carry, yet strong enough and long enough to make it a very practical fighting weapon.  Physically well balanced too.  It's proportions and weight distribution make it very quick in the hand.  Ironically they're fairly common these days as lots were made, then weren't issued all that often, so mostly sat gathering dust.  ::)

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 19,692 Armed with camera and not afraid to use it.
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #84 on: August 27, 2020, 10:22:07 AM »
Could you please continue with your more contemporary pieces Gareth.  :pok:  :pok:  :pok:

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Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #85 on: August 27, 2020, 11:13:01 AM »
Could you please continue with your more contemporary pieces Gareth.  :pok:  :pok:  :pok:

I might take a break for a bit but I'll see what I can do.  :D

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 19,692 Armed with camera and not afraid to use it.
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #86 on: August 27, 2020, 11:41:54 AM »
By all means.  :hatsoff:

 :woohoo:

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Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 32,943
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #87 on: August 28, 2020, 12:24:00 PM »
This morning we are going to look at my oldest sword.  No, let me rephrase that; the antique sword I've owned the longest.  :D  I bought this in a time when I was still a very active part of the early days of the Western Martial Arts movement and, simply, there were no good options for buying modern reproduction.  Hence this sabre got a lot of use and a little abuse and has the scars to prove it.  Stood up to anything I could throw at it mind you.



What we are looking at is in fact a 1890 pattern British cavalry sabre which is the final iteration of a family of swords starting all the way back to the early 1820s.  One of it's predecessors (the 1853) was the sabre being used at the famous Charge of the Light Brigade. Unfortunately this was a family of sabres that never quite seemed to hit the mark with the troopers using them and it was constantly tweaked and fiddled with to no great avail.  Complaints included; too long, too short, too heavy, too brittle, too small a grip and too blunt.  Initially it sounds likely that they simply wanted their 1796 light cavalry sabres back but the powers at be had decided that they wanted a straighter blade that was more orientated to giving the point.  In the end the argument was settled just a few years after this pattern with the introduction of the 1908; a sword has no cutting edge whatsoever and was essentially a T-section spike with a hand guard. 



An NCO correcting his student's blade position.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2020, 01:00:31 PM by Gareth »

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 20,009 Oxygen and magnesium toghether?! OMg!
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #88 on: August 28, 2020, 12:47:43 PM »
The heart is in the middle, you know...

That's why they take so long to die after I stab them...

 :facepalm:

________________________________
It is just a matter of time before they add the word “Syndrome” after my last name.

I don't have OCD, I have OCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ.

Eff the ineffable, scrut the inscrutable.

IYCRTYSWTMTFOT

Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 20,009 Oxygen and magnesium toghether?! OMg!
Re: Gareth's Sword Collection.
« Reply #89 on: August 28, 2020, 12:52:56 PM »
(...)

(Image removed from quote.)

(...)

There's something weird about a suit-cladded-bowler-hat-wearing man wielding a sabre...

 :o :o

________________________________
It is just a matter of time before they add the word “Syndrome” after my last name.

I don't have OCD, I have OCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ.

Eff the ineffable, scrut the inscrutable.

IYCRTYSWTMTFOT


 

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