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The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs 2212

Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 21,055 Bored

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Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2020, 12:54:20 PM »
It's a business, if people are willing to pay they will charge more. It's not a charity organisation.

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Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 20,313 Armed with camera and not afraid to use it.
Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2020, 01:30:27 PM »
Never was.

A little Leatherman information.

Leatherman series articles
No Life Club Posts: 3,912
Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2020, 02:06:52 PM »
It's not a charity organisation.

No one asserted that Leatherman is a charity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

No Life Club Posts: 3,068
Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2020, 02:33:25 PM »
Interesting thread, which opens up a lot of questions
The running costs for leatherman must be phenomenal. I’ve no idea what the minimum wage is over there, but I imagine it’s much much higher than say China.
We’ve all seen the threads on leathermans poor quality control. I’ll get flamed for saying this but why or what is manufactured in the USA. Note it’s been a long time since I saw made in the USA stamped on LM plier heads and internal tools. We all knock China, me included,  but given that they can and do manufacture outstanding products (Apple) I’m sure assembling Leathermans would be child’s play to them.
BUT, I’m also aware just how patriotic Americans are. they pride themselves on what they can produce...but at what costs?
God forbid leatherman moved production overseas as I imagine their loyal fan base would rapidly leave.

So where does this leave leatherman in 2020?
Having to honour their 25yr warranty, taking into consideration all those abusing it via the used market scam.

It doesn’t look good, people are complaining prices are too high, yet don’t want to buy China made, yet still want the 25yr warranty.

Something‘s got to give.
Maybe I should buy both the Free series now.

I don't claim to know it all, but what I do know is right.
No Life Club Posts: 2,823
Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2020, 02:50:01 PM »
No one asserted that Leatherman is a charity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Not Straw Man.... Hyperbole prehaps.  An exagerated claim (in this case in the negative) to call attention to the opposite extreme

Saying the same thing, in different words:

Leatherman is in a business of making profits and decreasing expenses.   They are not a non-profit organisation, and they are not a charity.  Ergo, their business practices should change in order to maintain their profit margin if that is at is decreasing. 
Global Moderator Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 25,326
Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2020, 02:51:10 PM »
A fee to repair would be fair.  The problem is how do they go back on their 25 year warranty?  I've seen a lot of broken tools at the flea market I don't buy them.  I would be curious how many warranty tools Leatherman fixes rather than just replaces?  I know if you mark the tool sentimental they wont replace and will try to fix. 

As far as the current high prices I'm of the feeling this has been a steady thing. We've seen the Wingman and Sidekick go up quite sharply a while ago.  I recall getting one of each during xmas years back for $20/ea.  They certainly seem to be following others with their "fancy" offerings.  While collectors will snap these up I wonder about their other offerings? 

Lastly, how much did they sink into R&D on the FREE Series?  They did one heck of a job letting us know how this was going to change the game.  How they came up with the bees knees in MTs.  That had to cost a pretty penny in getting it up and running.     

Esse Quam Videri
No Life Club Posts: 2,823
Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2020, 03:27:47 PM »
Actually, couple years ago, LTG changed their warranty policy, all information was be on Leatherman website: proof of purchase (receipt) became necessary. But little bit later they reversed back, reasons unknown; maybe because of criticism. People just never saved receipts, knowing that warranty are unconditional, and even if you save the receipt from year 1990, most likely thermoprinting or ink are disappeared by 21st century.
I personally support the idea of fair fee at least 30% from a price for brand new model. Don’t want them to declare bankruptcy..will be too late in that case

I remember that when I bought my first Leatherman it came with a warranty registration card, that I had to fill out.  (Same with my old laptop 20 years ago....  and my current computer manufacturer contacted me when my warranty was about to expire this year... so they knew who I am and when I bought the computer even though I never filled out a warranty card). 

Either they don't register warranties upfront any more, or I don't notice it.   Doing this would solve the problem easily.....and especially in this day and age when you don't have to make a Xerox copy of your reciept, and put it in the mail along with the warranty registration form. 

I don't know what the rule of thumb is for a manufacturer.  Though for a user of a big contraption of some sort in a business environment - you estimate that a new contraption that is meant to increase your efficiency or provide a new service to your customers.... that contraption will generate expenses (repairs and consumables) of about 10% of the initial cost of the equipment, annually for life.  Therefore. you want to be certain that this contraption will increase your profit margin well above that level (either by individual product sales, or by scaling up production).  I would think that a similar rule of thumb exists for warranty repairs.  If and when a company exceed some critical amount, that something needs to be done.

I would say that the consumer is already suffering - initial costs to the consumer are already increasing, and quality of the product is already decreasing (they're already cutting corners)... so that they can keep their generous warranty.

No Life Club Posts: 2,823
Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2020, 03:37:04 PM »
A fee to repair would be fair.  The problem is how do they go back on their 25 year warranty?  I've seen a lot of broken tools at the flea market I don't buy them.  I would be curious how many warranty tools Leatherman fixes rather than just replaces?  I know if you mark the tool sentimental they wont replace and will try to fix. 

As far as the current high prices I'm of the feeling this has been a steady thing. We've seen the Wingman and Sidekick go up quite sharply a while ago.  I recall getting one of each during xmas years back for $20/ea.  They certainly seem to be following others with their "fancy" offerings.  While collectors will snap these up I wonder about their other offerings? 

Lastly, how much did they sink into R&D on the FREE Series?  They did one heck of a job letting us know how this was going to change the game.  How they came up with the bees knees in MTs.  That had to cost a pretty penny in getting it up and running.     

That's actually a good point.... there is a cost to their innovation... and their innovation rivals what we get with other companies. 

I actually marked a tool not-sentimental, and was hoping for a replacement ... and they repaired it anyway.   :dunno: 

My thought is that they don't go back on their 25-year warranty on what they've already produced.  Rather, starting sometime in the future, they can initiate the change... and give ample warning.  I'm sure very few pepole would go elsewhere because of such a change in the warranty policy.  And the ones that do wouldn't have been loyal customers anyway.  Many other companies have already done so, and are no worse for wear. 
Global Moderator Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 25,326
Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2020, 03:59:09 PM »
 :iagree:  The ones who abuse the warranty would go elsewhere.  Those that are loyal customers I believe would welcome a reasonable warranty system.  I've sent in a couple of tools to LM.  They gave me a replacement on one which I was ok with.  One I marked sentimental and they sent it back. 

I don't know why the prices have gone up as they have could it also be more people are into MTs and not problems as we are speculating?  More demand for their products signaled them to increase prices?  When LM stopped TTC they began to offer tools a segment of their market was wanting.  I can see the additional costs for these.  LM IMO needs to dial in the QC first and foremost.  Its frustrating to read about issues members bring up on tools they've bought. 

I also don't know why they have discontinued the Juice line?  Poor sales or was it a bother to produce?  Thats a tool they could (  IMO  ) spend a little more time on and make a terrific tool. 

Why not have some FUN with different main blades?  I cannot imagine costs are that significant.  We've talked about accessories as well.  The came out with LM by the Numbers which were ok.       


Esse Quam Videri
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 21,055 Bored

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Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2020, 04:18:33 PM »
The idea is not whether LM can be defended by using Wikipedia, it is that people try to justify the increase in prices and possible quality issues by blaming the warranty and the bad people that use it, which of course it is always "others" and not me/us, as if LM is a poor hardworking man against the evil establishment and not a big business whose main interest is to make money, and use that money to make more products that return more profit. I do recall that Tim is no longer directly involved, so any magic purity is long gone.

LM increased the prices because LM wanted to increase the prices and decided it is a viable model they are happy with. They could have decided to lower prices and sell more tools. Obviously that was considered to be the best option for them.

Regarding not stamping the pliers as US made, this goes back to the California case where they were not allowed to say it is US made if it had parts from other countries. I remember that the pliers or parts of the LM tool are made in Mexico, or somewhere else.

In addition, a basic Case or Buck knife, good looking one, costs 40, 50 dollars for two liners and a blade or two. A multitool has so much more and does not cost all that much more.

I like the juice line, but we do not know what the actual sales figures were.

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No Life Club Posts: 2,823
Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2020, 04:33:36 PM »
The idea is not whether LM can be defended by using Wikipedia, it is that people try to justify the increase in prices and possible quality issues by blaming the warranty and the bad people that use it, which of course it is always "others" and not me/us, as if LM is a poor hardworking man against the evil establishment and not a big business whose main interest is to make money, and use that money to make more products that return more profit. I do recall that Tim is no longer directly involved, so any magic purity is long gone.

LM increased the prices because LM wanted to increase the prices and decided it is a viable model they are happy with. They could have decided to lower prices and sell more tools. Obviously that was considered to be the best option for them.

Regarding not stamping the pliers as US made, this goes back to the California case where they were not allowed to say it is US made if it had parts from other countries. I remember that the pliers or parts of the LM tool are made in Mexico, or somewhere else.

In addition, a basic Case or Buck knife, good looking one, costs 40, 50 dollars for two liners and a blade or two. A multitool has so much more and does not cost all that much more.

I like the juice line, but we do not know what the actual sales figures were.

touche  :cheers:

Good counterpoint.  Though I do think that their overly generous warranty is not sustainable in the long run. For the benefit of maintaining the brand and having the flexibility to keep prices down ... which is a benefit to all of us... it would be good to reel that warranty in.   It's a bit of a unique observation that people don't make about Vic or Gerber, isn't it?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2020, 05:06:56 PM by ElevenBlade »
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 20,313 Armed with camera and not afraid to use it.
Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2020, 04:36:03 PM »
 :iagree:

A little Leatherman information.

Leatherman series articles
No Life Club Posts: 1,208 Find me if you can...
Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2020, 06:21:41 PM »
It is not realistic to expect 440HC to last 25 years. Customization is the norm, pattern laser printing or scale coating are fad. They need a new platform which allows people to buy and replace parts at their own convenience. Sending tool in is inconvenient for both the user and LM. SOG with their mediocre multi tool line is still around. They must be doing something right with that business model.
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 21,055 Bored

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Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2020, 06:47:46 PM »
The dealers here charge you for warranty replacements, unlike in the US.

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No Life Club Posts: 3,912
Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2020, 07:01:30 PM »
The idea is not whether LM can be defended by using Wikipedia

Again, no one asked anyone to do that.  You keep trying to refute things that have never been asserted.

The thesis of this thread is that 1) Leatherman has been increasing its MSRPs far in excess of inflation over the last decade, 2) this change evinces a paradigm shift in Leatherman's pricing strategery, and 3) a 93% increase in the cost of an MT absolutely sucks for the consumer.  I know this is the thesis, because I started the thread.

That last element is the salient point.  It sucks when Leatherman doubles the price of an MT - especially when the doubling is wholly gratuitous.  And Leatherman should receive some push-back.

Of course Leatherman can set their own MSRPs, and of course Leatherman is in the revenue business more than the MT business.  But that has nothing to do with whether a doubling of the price really sucks.  That's all I'm saying.   :cheers:


Gratuitous pic.

Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 21,055 Bored

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Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2020, 07:45:50 PM »
Not trying to change the paradigm of the thesis, but maybe LMs were too cheap to begin with, as per the Case xx comparison

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No Life Club Posts: 1,429
Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2020, 04:51:29 AM »
Just for Smurfs and Giggles you should have a look a the the Leatherman Au site and see what we get ripped for new tools here  :facepalm:

https://leatherman.com.au/collections/multi-tools?page=1

Global Moderator Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 25,326
Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2020, 06:47:05 AM »
Yikes. 

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No Life Club Posts: 3,309 One Day Closer To Death
Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2020, 07:36:15 AM »
This topic seemed a familiar rant, I think it comes up every year: https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,81698.msg1943681.html#msg1943681

BB :B:
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 21,055 Bored

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Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2020, 08:33:08 AM »
All topics do, but because of old age we forget them....

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No Life Club Posts: 3,309 One Day Closer To Death
Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2020, 09:50:42 AM »
Lol, quite true or we just want things they way they used to be, I for one would love a P4 but I can't justify the price tag when I can get a handful of good knives for same price and I'm pretty happy with my MT collection....but the knives keep coming for some reason, there seems to be no way to permanently scratch that itch  :rofl:.

BB :B:
OCD Squad Leader Admin Team Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,861
Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #51 on: August 24, 2020, 11:54:54 AM »
In 2010, I bought a Leatherman PS4 for $28US with "free" shipping on Amazon.  Today they are $39.95.  That's a 43% increase.

In 2011, I bought a Leatherman Sidekick on Amazon for $30.99.  Today they are $59.99.  That's up 93%.

The cumulative inflation rate in the United States between 2010 and 2018 was 14.16%.
Well, according to the Bic Mac Index, the Big Mac was 3.58 in 2010, it is now 5.71 in 2020, that is 60% up. So, Leatherman is not that far off

Furthermore, inflation is not the only contributing factor. Labor cost (and I would presume a large part of the cost for a LM tool is labor cost) have gone up 26%. But labor cost also increases price of US sourced steel etc.
Source

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Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 20,313 Armed with camera and not afraid to use it.
Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #52 on: August 28, 2020, 10:49:55 AM »
OMG! I took a hiatus from collecting Leathermans about 5 years back. I have started to ramp up my collecting of late and this fine morning, decided to take a look at eBay, my old stomping grounds of sorts.  :ahhh

I feel for the new collector out there. I saw one of my Costco exclusive Charge sets listed darn near $600 dollars...plus shipping!  :ahhh

Does it say something that I can buy a new tool from Leatherman direct cheaper than I can buy a used tool, or even the same new tool listed on eBay? Something is seriously out of whack here. Since when does the OEM sell cheaper than the aftermarket?

A little Leatherman information.

Leatherman series articles
Hero Member Posts: 834
Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #53 on: August 28, 2020, 12:44:56 PM »

Does it say something that I can buy a new tool from Leatherman direct cheaper than I can buy a used tool, or even the same new tool listed on eBay? Something is seriously out of whack here. Since when does the OEM sell cheaper than the aftermarket?

It says no one has ever tried giving a 1000 billionaires $5 trillion over 3 months after giving them the largest tax cut in history 2 years before, plus giving 6 commercial banks $15 trillion.  It says the intended and unintended consequences  are hitting.
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 20,313 Armed with camera and not afraid to use it.
Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #54 on: August 28, 2020, 01:07:11 PM »
You reckon they are all investing in Oregon steel?  :think:

A little Leatherman information.

Leatherman series articles
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,088
Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #55 on: August 29, 2020, 12:25:22 AM »
In 2010, I bought a Leatherman PS4 for $28US with "free" shipping on Amazon.  Today they are $39.95.  That's a 43% increase.

In 2011, I bought a Leatherman Sidekick on Amazon for $30.99.  Today they are $59.99.  That's up 93%.

The cumulative inflation rate in the United States between 2010 and 2018 was 14.16%.

How do other multitool brands compare?

Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 21,055 Bored

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Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #56 on: August 29, 2020, 11:20:45 AM »
The only item that stayed the same price is the buck 110...

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Hero Member Posts: 570
Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #57 on: August 29, 2020, 06:31:41 PM »
Part of it is that Leatherman is really enforcing MAP and increasing prices at the same time.

I think it’s hurting them though since they had that month long sale this summer. I suspect the Free P4 and P2 are a bust for them as well and who knows how much went into those.

Finally, I think Tim has basically turned it over to his son and he’s got a different strategy.


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Thread Killer 2017 Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,541 Born to multitask.
Re: The skyrocketing cost of Leatherman MTs
« Reply #58 on: August 30, 2020, 10:29:58 AM »
Deals are still to be had, though. At least US buyers could get heritage stuff for great prices. The Rebar with a heritage sheath for $50, that was crazy good. I would have bought two or three. I got my Rebar in 2017 I think, for only $48, back when Amazon still sent stuff here.

The Red Cross Charge with sheath, headlamp, bit kit, and removable lanyard and pocket clip was only $100 around when the Plus models came out. Another great deal.

Otherwise, well, here we've had skyscraper prices all along. And since Amazon stopped sending stuff here, there are few options for us. Which is why I am looking for off brand tools. I've always been looking at those, and there are some nice tools out there.

 

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