Dating in the '70s - Victorinox chronology - Part 2 Catalogs

[kamakiri]

It’s been far too long that I let this effort stall. But indecision about the next topic, life, and then life during a pandemic just got in the way.

Part 1-Here

I’m going to kick this off with just part of the topic. First focusing on two catalogs that are labeled for the ‘80s, which I think are both actually from the ‘70s. My theory has been that the green catalog is closer to ‘77 or ‘78 than previously thought.

One data point is the soldier with the rounded red shield from ‘77. It is well documented that the old cross style was discontinued and that there was a transition within 1977. This new style shows up in the ‘80s-B (Green) catalog, but is absent from the ‘80s-A (B&W) catalog.

I would like to think that by or before say 1980 that this model that we know shows up with ‘77 stamping that they would be included in the next catalog printing/update.

Within my chronology, I can date the knives photographed (and rasterized for print) in the green catalog to the ‘76/‘77 range. The black & white version contains photographs of knives that are all earlier and c. ‘76, but also clearly pre-‘77.

The one counter argument I have is that the catalog includes the 84mm Combo Tool...which Victorinox says is c. ‘82 and some collectors say is closer to ‘80. I don’t have a Golfer in hand that would prove my date estimates, but I also haven’t specifically looked for one. It’s my belief that disproving my theory would be difficult. And that it would require a non-combo tool Golfer...without a clip point blade. Blades that I can prove were used in 84mm into ‘76/‘77 (and coincidentally for 91mm too).

[kamakiri]

One of the more glaring pieces of evidence, and perhaps the line of thinking that I should have started with considers the actual issue date of the ‘1985’ pdf catalog. It does seem pretty clear that both ‘80s-A and B predate this one. But right in its introduction, it hints at the exact date of 1981. See attached annotated picture.

[kamakiri]

Within the ‘85 pdf catalog, I also only find photographs of knives that I can date to ‘c. 79 -‘80.

For example, on the Craftsman & Traveler page I can clearly identify a c. ‘79 Craftsman and c. ‘80 Traveler. Details in the attached picture.

While the this tight range of knife production for the photos firmly prove that the catalog must be later than 1980, it also provides an excellent proximity for the dates of production to photos to catalog production. It helps cement the thinking that ‘80s-A and B are actually c. ‘76 and c. ‘78 respectively. And perhaps only up to a year later than that.

[kamakiri]

For the ‘70s-B Red - 35 Model Catalog, I find it well placed in the ‘70s. The pictures generally look like c.’74 and they don’t have the benefit of better resolution of the ones that follow. Like I should have noted above, I think all the +PAT can opener stamps need to be ignored. Or considered lightly as an inclusion for marketing purposes.

The ‘70s-A 26 Model catalog seems way out of date to me. But I do believe it that it could have been the last one produced or used before the numerous changes which happen c. ‘73. It looks to me like the last pictures were updated in perhaps ‘66 or ‘67. But it’s completely possible that only prices and key rings and perhaps some discontinuations happened between then and ‘73. It’s also possible that whatever may have been printed in between has been simply lost in time.

I think the only other topic to include from here is the ‘76 dealer catalog. While not for customers, it does seem to fit as a dealer update for c. ‘73. Produced with outdated pictures and such, but clearly including the new Champion C. I suspect c. ‘73 for other reasons too. The ‘Master Craftsman’ with the scaler, and the last time I know of that the 84mm Craftsman 136ka to be included in print.

Some of my thoughts about the systematic ‘error’ of the catalog dates are because of the way people and companies used them. Essentially, a manufacturer issued a catalog at one time and only issued updates in between. Updates included prices, introductions and discontinuations until the next catalog printing. Such updates would save on printing costs. Unfortunately, this would tend to make people date the catalog later than it was first issued. Any new dealers would get ‘old’ catalogs and just the latest updates and addenda. The ‘errors’ would would include right up until the next printing. I also know that many or most dealers would simply toss the old price sheets to prevent their binders from becoming overloaded and to prevent errors by having old info around. So many of the stipulated dates likely come from the latter end of a publications relevance. It’s just unfortunate that dates were often excluded from the actual catalogs to allow for such updates and addenda.

[kamakiri]

I was thinking that there will be doubt that catalog marked ‘85 (pdf) precedes the ‘84-‘85 extended pdf, so I want to highlight some issues there.

The ‘84-‘85 does start with an ‘84 catalog between pages 1 and 32 if the pdf. But the addenda are from other times and I believe parts of it from prior to ‘84.

There a few lines to follow that prove this. One is with the black scaled knives, another is with the Space Shuttle and the 74mm scissor update. The catalog marked ‘85, is devoid of these three products.

Clearly, the ‘84 extended pdf has them. And most importantly, a total of 7 black knives. But starting on page 33 of the pdf scan are addenda with the introduction. The next 6 pages, I believe are two documents and an added price sheet. The the two addenda introduce these ‘new’ products. And with the black knives, one doc is showing 6 black knives, and the other clearly references that only 2 black knives are available. To me, this clearly places the new products announcement addenda between ‘81 and ‘84. Especially considering that the ‘84 catalog would have been prepared well in advance of 1/1/84 since it is one of the major celebrated milestones in the 100th Anniversary.

Introduction of the Space Shuttle (and I suppose should include the round backside Phillips), revision of the 74mm scissors, together with the introduction and quantity of black scaled knives available make the chronological order pretty clear.

[kamakiri]

I thought proof for earlier use of the combo tool would come from a Golfer, but I’ve found it here on a Waiter. Early style combo tool on a knife with a shield from c. ‘78-‘79. My work studying the shield style is confirmed somewhat by the change in several other knives on the Wood Saw tip, and the tweezer tip change from Aluminum to Plastic, and from the density of Hoffritz stainless inlay knives of this period. It all ties together neatly.

The other thing I didn’t mention previously is the ‘thematic’ change and the use of the deeper green color. It shows up in the green flocked presentation box liners. I find many knives that date in the ‘77-‘78 range in those boxes.

[McStitchy]

Thank you very much for sharing your extensive knowledge and information with us here 

I think these should be sticky threads 

[kamakiri]

Thank you very much for sharing your extensive knowledge and information with us here 

I think these should be sticky threads 

  Thanks Five...I mean ‘Stitchy! I appreciate the compliment and vote of confidence!

Huntsman linked the first in the series with the Grands Prix. That works for me. 

I also should incorporate the related Hoffritz catalogs too.

[ulli]

One of the more glaring pieces of evidence, and perhaps the line of thinking that I should have started with considers the actual issue date of the ‘1985’ pdf catalog. It does seem pretty clear that both ‘80s-A and B predate this one. But right in its introduction, it hints at the exact date of 1981. See attached annotated picture.

Very interesting subject. For a long time I thought that catalogs can help date knives. But after a while, I dont think that they really help a lot. As an example: if you have a catalog dated 1934. The only thing you can say about the content knives, that the beginning of the production of a specific model in the catalog could not be after 1934. You can not say that in 1934 that model was still in production, and you can not say that the picture of the knife shown in the catalog was taken in 1934 from a knife produced in that year. But also I have seen knives in catalogs that were never in production, just shown in a catalog. So sometimes, Victorinox also showed some knives that they wanted to produce, but never did. And as you mentioned, a catalog was there sometimes for a time period of around 10 years. I have seen catalogs with hand written notes were some knives were just crossed or some options crossed, and other new options mentioned. Also victorinox always produced stocks of knives, like they do also today. So for some less common knives, victorinox did just one production session for some days, produced the whole amount for the next years. So production time is no the same like selling time. Also in the catalogs are some errors, like the picknicker knife without the saw, or the 90 mm officer knives, that were always 91 mm, and so on.

And Im also not sure about those 90 or 100 years of procution from the advertising. One time, you take the year 1884, the other time 1891. When its written "90 years of craftsmanship", why not take the year 1884? Would make more sense. Also, Karl Elsener was a knifemaker before 1884. So you could also easily take the year 1880 as a start of his career as a knifemaker, so 1970 would also mean 90 yeares of knowledge of knifemaking.

I think the best way to specifiy the dates of the knifes in production is to create a table were everybody can put in their thoughts and evidences, advertising knives with dates, catalogs, other sources, for every tool or change in process. One table for "Canopener", one table for "Corkscrew", then for all the different sizes. There I see the best way to narrow the dates were knives were produced.

[kamakiri]

Very interesting subject. For a long time I thought that catalogs can help date knives. But after a while, I dont think that they really help a lot. As an example: if you have a catalog dated 1934. The only thing you can say about the content knives, that the beginning of the production of a specific model in the catalog could not be after 1934. You can not say that in 1934 that model was still in production, and you can not say that the picture of the knife shown in the catalog was taken in 1934 from a knife produced in that year. But also I have seen knives in catalogs that were never in production, just shown in a catalog. So sometimes, Victorinox also showed some knives that they wanted to produce, but never did. And as you mentioned, a catalog was there sometimes for a time period of around 10 years. I have seen catalogs with hand written notes were some knives were just crossed or some options crossed, and other new options mentioned. Also victorinox always produced stocks of knives, like they do also today. So for some less common knives, victorinox did just one production session for some days, produced the whole amount for the next years. So production time is no the same like selling time. Also in the catalogs are some errors, like the picknicker knife without the saw, or the 90 mm officer knives, that were always 91 mm, and so on.

I generally agree with that whole paragraph. But as time progresses there are more apparent consistencies between what is advertised and what is produced. There’s an evolution of sorts.

And Im also not sure about those 90 or 100 years of procution from the advertising. One time, you take the year 1884, the other time 1891. When its written "90 years of craftsmanship", why not take the year 1884? Would make more sense. Also, Karl Elsener was a knifemaker before 1884. So you could also easily take the year 1880 as a start of his career as a knifemaker, so 1970 would also mean 90 yeares of knowledge of knifemaking.

There are two separate catalogs I am referencing.

Catalog marked 1985, that I suggest is 1981 - 24 pages

and

Catalog Marked ‘84-‘85 “Extended” with addenda that I say starts with a 1984 catalog

It seems Victorinox is the one that has focused on various dates for marketing purposes. I can’t argue the significance or history of any of it, but empirically they’ve attached significance to those dates. Hence the huge serialized 1984 Anniversary release. But I’m just looking for how they fit.

Basically, I can confirm that the catalogs aren’t produced before the dates I suggest. And also suggest that they don’t lag that range by very much, as seen in both the ‘81 and ‘84 printing.

I think the best way to specifiy the dates of the knifes in production is to create a table were everybody can put in their thoughts and evidences, advertising knives with dates, catalogs, other sources, for every tool or change in process. One table for "Canopener", one table for "Corkscrew", then for all the different sizes. There I see the best way to narrow the dates were knives were produced.

Somebody else can try that.

It seems that there is only so far an effort like that will go with decisions made in committee. For many nuances in machining, I need the knife in hand to see and understand the differences.

[kamakiri]

For a long time I thought that catalogs can help date knives. But after a while, I dont think that they really help a lot.

Yes, and especially when they aren’t dated correctly.

It is one of my hopes to ‘fix’ that as much as possible.

But one thing they are capable of doing is validating my chronology. I mean, I can’t possibly say a catalog is 1981, if it contains knives that the chronology says are produced in 1985, right? There is broad agreement between the two. And that is all I could have hoped for.

[kamakiri]

FWIW, I’ve said essentially the same thing about catalogs and dating in the past. Nothing I’ve found in over a year and a half from the post below has changed much in my view. I’m just providing more context, background and clarification. And reviewing all of the posted 0.3102 variants in the thread, isn’t it curious that all take the same form and with the black double-leaf scissor spring?

In the hope to clarify what I believe is an error, I don't think the LNF versions like the 244k were ever Golfers.

I believe the Original Golfer is based off the 136ka Craftsman, but with horn scales. First listed that I know of in the 26 Model Catalog (which I believe is mid-late '60s) My guess is that it was directly succeeded c. '73 with the 0.3102 version and followed by the 0.1602 in the late '70s.

[kamakiri]

Interestingly enough, some proof shows up only days later. 

Regarding the “ ‘70s-A “ catalog and the actual Original Golfer, proof of this model production comes from two others that follow my c. ‘66 copy and run into the mid-‘70s. Production that essentially transitions very directly to the 0.3102 version mistakenly referred to as the ‘original’.

Here -with thanks to jnoxyd and FolderBeholder for their pictures! I also need to acknowledge Karl, aka ColoSwiss for teaching me about the Golfer through one of his posts I read long ago searching for 136ka info while I was a lurker here. FolderBeholder’s knife is/was part of his collection. 

Mid-‘70s Golfer:


c.’70 Golfer:




Attached- my Golfer from c.’66/‘67 (top knife in the pic) and the catalog cut from the ‘70s-A which I still think was first issued in the mid-late ‘60s.

[kamakiri]

I think I’ve found something that links the “ ‘80s-A “ catalog to being c.’78. It’s the US 5036 code for the 84mm Combo Tool Golfer, in a price sheet effective 2/1/78. The fact that the same number references the combo tool version instead of the clip blade version up through the ‘81 and ‘84 catalogs is proof, because it didn’t change. If 5036 referenced the clip blade version in ‘78, the ‘81 and ‘84 catalogs would have used another number. And that number would be odd, not even, like all other later issued 50XX numbers. Likely it would have been 5037.  For example, the Waiter which did change in that period, was 5080 for the alox version pre-‘78, but was changed to 5081 for the Combo Tool version pre-’81.

[rookie]

I thought proof for earlier use of the combo tool would come from a Golfer, but I’ve found it here on a Waiter. Early style combo tool on a knife with a shield from c. ‘78-‘79. My work studying the shield style is confirmed somewhat by the change in several other knives on the Wood Saw tip, and the tweezer tip change from Aluminum to Plastic, and from the density of Hoffritz stainless inlay knives of this period. It all ties together neatly.

The other thing I didn’t mention previously is the ‘thematic’ change and the use of the deeper green color. It shows up in the green flocked presentation box liners. I find many knives that date in the ‘77-‘78 range in those boxes.

Hello kamakiri,
some months ago I bought this bantam together with another vic. Then I did some research because the scales did not match the stamp. But what confused me even more was the combotool, because everywhere I read that it was introduced about 82-86. According to sakhome.com this stamp (ESSR/empty) exists since 1973.
Maybe you can bring some clarity into the age of the knife. And maybe it helps you to find the age of the combotool in general.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

[kamakiri]

Hello kamakiri,
some months ago I bought this bantam together with another vic. Then I did some research because the scales did not match the stamp. But what confused me even more was the combotool, because everywhere I read that it was introduced about 82-86. According to sakhome.com this stamp (ESSR/empty) exists since 1973.
Maybe you can bring some clarity into the age of the knife. And maybe it helps you to find the age of the combotool in general.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Wow! Excellent! Thanks for posting pics of your knife rookie! It certainly helps to confirm ‘70s production of the combo tool!  The ESSR/blank tang use is definitely confirmed at least into the ‘76-‘77 range:

Dated advertising knife thread HERE

I suspect only a little later than that based on other knives I own which are c.’77-‘78. ESSR/blank likely ends at that time and probably not as late as ‘79.

Thanks again for posting! 

[rookie]

 

I'm happy if i could help and thank you for dating my knive

[kamakiri]

 

I’m beyond happy! And very glad you could get an answer on your knife.

 

It’s better proof of my theory than I could have hoped for.   

EDIT:
This is an ESSR/Blank tang advertising knife that I date to c.’78

[kamakiri]

I’ve been working on a post for the Hoffritz catalogs and when I think they were printed, but got a bit sidetracked.

I’ve provided many reasons why I think the “1985” catalog is actually 1981. But I think I’ve found some proof that the printing is later and perhaps for 1982 or 1983. Putting these two printings out and all the addenda within two calendar years still does seem possible. Even if they are ‘83 and ‘84. They still do share 7 photographs, so the closer dates still make sense.

[xfile]

I'm curious. What kind of tool is this? It doesn't look like a bottle opener
@kamakiri

[kamakiri]

I'm curious. What kind of tool is this? It doesn't look like a bottle opener
@kamakiri

Because it’s not a bottle opener!  It’s just a ‘crab claw’ can opener. I probably should have used or taken another pic of the actual Original Golfer next to it. But this one was taken recently for something else, so I used it here.

[xfile]

Because it’s not a bottle opener!  It’s just a ‘crab claw’ can opener. I probably should have used or taken another pic of the actual Original Golfer next to it. But this one was taken recently for something else, so I used it here.

If you can provide detailed pictures, I will be more grateful

[kamakiri]

If you can provide detailed pictures, I will be more grateful

My apologies, but my policy is not to post hi-res pics of ‘valuable’ knives that could be used for fake auctions and such. And this knife in particular is one that I will not handle unnecessarily or open multiple tools for display purposes.

[xfile]

My apologies, but my policy is not to post hi-res pics of ‘valuable’ knives that could be used for fake auctions and such. And this knife in particular is one that I will not handle unnecessarily or open multiple tools for display purposes.

OK, I'm just curious why the crab claw doesn't have a clasp, as shown in the picture

[Reinier]

Because the one you posted now is even older. The crab claw opener was produced only a few years. 1940s? Kamakiri knows exacly when

[xfile]

Because the one you posted now is even older. The crab claw opener was produced only a few years. 1940s? Kamakiri knows exacly when

This type?

[Reinier]

Yes

[kamakiri]

Because the one you posted now is even older. The crab claw opener was produced only a few years. 1940s? Kamakiri knows exacly when

Thanks Reinier. 

Main line use is thought to be ‘46-‘51. But I have theories about how late they may have been used.  Before the design was modified for reverse/mirrored and thinner when used like a combo tool in a knife layer. There would likely be some that had to be ‘disposed’ of like so many discontinued tools have been.

I was looking at a ‘Climber’ LNF from the late ‘70s last night and noticed that it might have a very early stamping of the OSCB rear tang stamp.

All a bit off topic though.

[xfile]

Oh, I see. Thank you both

[Huntsman]

Thank you very much for sharing your extensive knowledge and information with us here 
I think these should be sticky threads 

Yep Ditto the first point KK - Thanks for making this thread - Although I do need to give this a good proper read ..... RL has been a bit hectic recently!!

Anyway it's in the Dating sticky now - Thanks again