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91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives 1855

No Life Club Posts: 2,365
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2020, 04:50:31 PM »
I’m sorry! I was supposed to post 136fm. I will post a couple later today.

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No Life Club Posts: 2,365
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2020, 08:51:12 PM »
136fm ‘73 Hoffritz and c. ‘74

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Jr. Member Posts: 85
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2020, 09:18:26 PM »
Whow, perfect!

Can I use the picture for the diagram?

I found the Nr 146 in a catalog, so it seems that it existed, maybe just for some years.
No Life Club Posts: 2,365
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2020, 09:56:25 PM »
Whow, perfect!

Can I use the picture for the diagram?

I found the Nr 146 in a catalog, so it seems that it existed, maybe just for some years.

Yes you can! That is why I posted.  :tu:

Is it possible that the 146 was a 146k?  I do not have one of those either, but might have seen one. With horn scales if I remember correctly.

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Jr. Member Posts: 85
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2020, 10:51:18 AM »
Yes you can! That is why I posted.  :tu:

Is it possible that the 146 was a 146k?  I do not have one of those either, but might have seen one. With horn scales if I remember correctly.

No I mean the 146. It is listed as a number in a catalog, end 50-s, only in the Version a U.

I have a 146 k, also end of 50s, with cellidor scales.
Hero Member Posts: 837
91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2020, 04:05:25 PM »
(Image removed from quote.)

Interesting...scissors repaired or replaced? They look ‘77+ with the big screw.

You are right, I didn’t check scissors just only 5 loop corckscrew, clip point blade and blank blade stamp.

BTW what is the first year for new scissors with large screw and spring hole in you opinion?
Here’s another 236 fm with proper scissors:

No Life Club Posts: 2,365
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2020, 05:45:52 PM »
I think the scissor change happens between very late ‘76 and first half of ‘77.

Seeing your second advertising Handyman makes me think of my Hoffritz Favorite (6 layer Craftsman) that seem to get a lot of disposal parts. Very broadly, it appears throughout the ‘70s. Seems both Handyman and Craftsman lines got similar treatment in that regard. Even for main line production.

In these knives I tend to place greater weight on the newest parts when estimating a production date.

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Full Member Posts: 224
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2020, 03:08:11 PM »
Cool project!  :like:  :tu:  :salute:  How about making available a higher resolution version? There are some remarkable SAKs in this diagram and I find it a little frustrating that the quality of their images isn't better.

Anyway, one thing that I believe to be a problem with the current version is the so called "Nr. 249." The shown SAK is very interesting and I don't know what it is, but, AFAIK, it is NOT a model 249. The attached images show what I believe to be an actual model 249. The first of these images was made to fit the diagram (so feel free to use it for that purpose, if you like). I'll be happy to see more images of the SAK that currently masquerades in the diagram as a model 249. Particularly, images showing the top and bottom, like in my second attached image. One feature of the model 249 that I find very interesting is the special two-layer corkscrew. I don't recall seeing that on any other model and I wonder if this "not model 249" SAK also has it.

One final remark: The model that is called 234 in the diagram was called 205 until some point in the 1940's, so it may be better to call it something like "Nr. 205/234" (or to point this out in some other way).
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 10,104 \o/
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2020, 03:12:38 PM »
That's a gorgeous SAK MiniChamp :dd:

You should seriously visit vicfan.com. All the hoopy froods are doing it.
Jr. Member Posts: 85
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2020, 08:51:04 PM »
Cool project!  :like:  :tu:  :salute:  How about making available a higher resolution version? There are some remarkable SAKs in this diagram and I find it a little frustrating that the quality of their images isn't better.

Anyway, one thing that I believe to be a problem with the current version is the so called "Nr. 249." The shown SAK is very interesting and I don't know what it is, but, AFAIK, it is NOT a model 249. The attached images show what I believe to be an actual model 249. The first of these images was made to fit the diagram (so feel free to use it for that purpose, if you like). I'll be happy to see more images of the SAK that currently masquerades in the diagram as a model 249. Particularly, images showing the top and bottom, like in my second attached image. One feature of the model 249 that I find very interesting is the special two-layer corkscrew. I don't recall seeing that on any other model and I wonder if this "not model 249" SAK also has it.

One final remark: The model that is called 234 in the diagram was called 205 until some point in the 1940's, so it may be better to call it something like "Nr. 205/234" (or to point this out in some other way).

Thank you that you like the Project!

Its difficult to show the diagram in higher resolution, because its restricted to a max of around 500 kb. The real original resolution is 572 mb…

About the Nr. 249. You are right - but me as well :-) So how can that be? There were just 2 versions of the Nr. 249. The Nr. 249 and the Nr. 249 S. The S stands for screwdriver, instead of the champagne opener. So thats the story behind it. Its the same with the Nr. 239.

At least now I know where the knife has gone that I missed at auction… I added your Picture and also the Nr. 205 to the Nr. 234. Thank you very much for your help!
Full Member Posts: 224
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2020, 03:31:05 AM »
That's a gorgeous SAK MiniChamp :dd:
Thanks! (It wasn't cheap.  :D)

Its difficult to show the diagram in higher resolution, because its restricted to a max of around 500 kb.
I'm well aware of the 512KB size limit of MTO attachments. The solution is to make the file available elsewhere and just link to it. This can be done within MTO by using the MTO Gallery (it should be possible to open an MTO Gallery account by sending a PM to Grant). For example, here is a high-resolution catalog page linked from my MTO Gallery account:



(The size of this image file is 813KB.) Since you have your own web site, it may be simpler for you to link from there. There are also plenty of other services that people use.

Quote
The real original resolution is 572 mb…
This is too much, but I believe that it should be possible to make a version with reasonable quality and size below 10MB.

Quote
About the Nr. 249. You are right - but me as well :-) So how can that be? There were just 2 versions of the Nr. 249. The Nr. 249 and the Nr. 249 S. The S stands for screwdriver, instead of the champagne opener. So thats the story behind it. Its the same with the Nr. 239.
This is VERY interesting. I know about the three different versions of the model 239 (because they appear in the above catalog page), but I never heard before about this model 249 S. Can you explain how it is documented? Is it in a catalog? Some other document? Also, I'll be really happy to see more pictures of it (particularly, pictures showing the top and the bottom, like I requested before).

Quote
Thank you very much for your help!
You are most welcome!  :hatsoff:  Two more remarks:
  • The model 249 does have a small blade, so the description of how it relates to the model 248 in the latest version of the diagram is wrong.
  • I think that the correct model number for the blue Fischermesser with the special scissors is F235fm (and not 235fm), as indicated in the attached brochure. It's a bit hard to be certain here, because I've seen catalog listings (without images) for both model numbers (with 235fm being the earlier listing). One possible theory is that early versions didn't have the special scissors and that adding them was accompanied by adding the F to the model number. This is just a guess, however; maybe they just realized at some point that 235fm wasn't quite right and came up with F235fm. Whatever it was, I'm pretty sure that the Fischermesser with the special scissors was sold as F235fm at some point and I'm not sure if it was ever sold as 235fm.
No Life Club Posts: 2,365
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2020, 07:25:31 PM »
I’ve thought the F prefix could be the (blue) scales and/or the scissors crimper.

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Full Member Posts: 224
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2020, 09:41:47 PM »
I’ve thought the F prefix could be the (blue) scales and/or the scissors crimper.
Sorry for not being clearer before. I attach an image showing the catalog listings that I talked about. I believe that the left page is from the early 1960's and the right page from the early 1970's. One can see that they listed "Fischermesser blau mit "Fisch"-Intarsie" as 235fm on the left page and as F235fm on the right page. This is the source of my theory that if the addition of the F to the model number was connected to a change in the SAK, then it was probably the scissors (and not the scales).
Jr. Member Posts: 85
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2020, 09:13:28 AM »
Thanks! (It wasn't cheap.  :D)
I'm well aware of the 512KB size limit of MTO attachments. The solution is to make the file available elsewhere and just link to it. This can be done within MTO by using the MTO Gallery (it should be possible to open an MTO Gallery account by sending a PM to Grant). For example, here is a high-resolution catalog page linked from my MTO Gallery account:


(The size of this image file is 813KB.) Since you have your own web site, it may be simpler for you to link from there. There are also plenty of other services that people use.
This is too much, but I believe that it should be possible to make a version with reasonable quality and size below 10MB.
This is VERY interesting. I know about the three different versions of the model 239 (because they appear in the above catalog page), but I never heard before about this model 249 S. Can you explain how it is documented? Is it in a catalog? Some other document? Also, I'll be really happy to see more pictures of it (particularly, pictures showing the top and the bottom, like I requested before).
You are most welcome!  :hatsoff:  Two more remarks:
  • The model 249 does have a small blade, so the description of how it relates to the model 248 in the latest version of the diagram is wrong.
  • I think that the correct model number for the blue Fischermesser with the special scissors is F235fm (and not 235fm), as indicated in the attached brochure. It's a bit hard to be certain here, because I've seen catalog listings (without images) for both model numbers (with 235fm being the earlier listing). One possible theory is that early versions didn't have the special scissors and that adding them was accompanied by adding the F to the model number. This is just a guess, however; maybe they just realized at some point that 235fm wasn't quite right and came up with F235fm. Whatever it was, I'm pretty sure that the Fischermesser with the special scissors was sold as F235fm at some point and I'm not sure if it was ever sold as 235fm.

So I tried again for a higher resulution. Maybe now its better.

The info about the Nr. 249 and Nr. 249 S is from a vintage catalog. Because its not my catalog, I cant post here any pictures or links.

Thank you about the info on the Fischermesser F 235 fm or 235 fm. I have and have seen many catalogs from the 1960s to the 1980s, and there`s only one or two times the Nr. F 235 fm. In all other catalogs its still the 235 fm, also with the special scissors, also with the blue scales. The ones with the F 235 fm are from beginning of the 1970s. Maybe they changed the name then, no idea. It was short before they changed from numbers to names. Would have been very untypical to have a letter before the number. And I have never seen the two different numbers together in one catalog, a 235 fm and a F 235 fm, for a difference in scales or tools.
No Life Club Posts: 2,365
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2020, 09:54:25 PM »
Sorry for not being clearer before. I attach an image showing the catalog listings that I talked about. I believe that the left page is from the early 1960's and the right page from the early 1970's. One can see that they listed "Fischermesser blau mit "Fisch"-Intarsie" as 235fm on the left page and as F235fm on the right page. This is the source of my theory that if the addition of the F to the model number was connected to a change in the SAK, then it was probably the scissors (and not the scales).

That would make sense if there are blue Fishermen knives with the file and scissors without the crimper. Is that the case? I do not know. Otherwise, it could just be and update to clarify just the crimper and or blue scales.

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Sr. Member Posts: 347
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2020, 02:45:54 AM »
It's amazing to see many Holy Grails! :cheers:
Did fish scaler exist in the late 1940s?
10.27 kB | 264x240
« Last Edit: May 11, 2020, 03:59:36 AM by xfile »
Full Member Posts: 224
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2020, 09:44:55 AM »
Did fish scaler exist in the late 1940s?
Possibly. AFAIK, this variant of the model 235f is the first standard production model that had the fish scaler (there are quite a few of them around). I don't know if it came out in the late 1940's or in the early 1950's (seems hard to tell). There are some nice videos about it. One by Hobie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ5hFWEeIF0

Another by El Corkscrew:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M626dgOclhI

Jr. Member Posts: 85
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2020, 12:01:04 PM »
That would make sense if there are blue Fishermen knives with the file and scissors without the crimper. Is that the case? I do not know. Otherwise, it could just be and update to clarify just the crimper and or blue scales.

I don`t know any blue fischermessr without the crimper. All of my models nr. 235 fm have the crimper. All the other knives for fishermen dont I think, what is also very special...

It's amazing to see many Holy Grails! :cheers:
Did fish scaler exist in the late 1940s?

The official introduction of the fishscaler and the philipps are 1952, and the claw style can opener ended in 1951. But there are some variants with combinations of old can opener and philipps or fishscaler. So it could be that the intoduction of philipps/fishscaler was earlier, 1950 or 1951, or that the claw style can opener was used some years parallel to the new one. That seems to be more obvious. For the model Nr. 247, the claw style opener was used also for some more years, so it was still in production. On the other side, I see no need to make both can openers parallel. But there seems to be a demand for the old one, maybe because wenger used it also? No idea really.
Sr. Member Posts: 347
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2020, 05:05:21 AM »
thank you, @MiniChamp@elsinox.I know the condition of assembling old tools in alternate period.Anyway, this 235f is very rare,It's really great! :salute:
Sr. Member Posts: 347
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2020, 01:42:52 PM »
What's the use of that strange tool ?
21.07 kB | 234x254
« Last Edit: May 13, 2020, 01:49:54 PM by xfile »
Sr. Member Posts: 495
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2020, 01:57:10 PM »
What's the use of that strange tool ?
As was written, it's a shotgun cartridge extractor. To remove the shot shells from the gun's chamber after firing.
No Life Club Posts: 2,365
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2020, 04:30:29 PM »
I don`t know any blue fischermessr without the crimper. All of my models nr. 235 fm have the crimper. All the other knives for fishermen dont I think, what is also very special...

 :iagree:

This is why I think the F prefix was likely added to indicate scales and scissor crimper instead of one or the other even though just the scissor is possible.

The official introduction of the fishscaler and the philipps are 1952, and the claw style can opener ended in 1951. But there are some variants with combinations of old can opener and philipps or fishscaler. So it could be that the intoduction of philipps/fishscaler was earlier, 1950 or 1951, or that the claw style can opener was used some years parallel to the new one. That seems to be more obvious. For the model Nr. 247, the claw style opener was used also for some more years, so it was still in production. On the other side, I see no need to make both can openers parallel. But there seems to be a demand for the old one, maybe because wenger used it also? No idea really.

Do you have examples of 90mm or 91mm with phillips and crab claw opener?

Based on the difference in machining, my estimate for the 83/84mm version I have on 136ka could be late ‘40s. Though I do see ‘50 as possible and doubt ‘51 or later.

My earliest 91mm phillips is +PAT and is most similar to an UPP stamped 136ka. I believe it to be late ‘53.

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Sr. Member Posts: 347
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2020, 04:10:03 AM »
As was written, it's a shotgun cartridge extractor. To remove the shot shells from the gun's chamber after firing.

Thank you very much. I saw it. It's an interesting tool ! :climber:
Hero Member Posts: 558
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #53 on: November 23, 2020, 07:48:15 PM »
I don`t know any blue fischermessr without the crimper. All of my models nr. 235 fm have the crimper. All the other knives for fishermen dont I think, what is also very special...


I have one without crimper.


https://leaf-vics.com/2016/11/473-fischermesser-ii.html


Scroll down till the last picture 😉
No Life Club Posts: 2,365
Re: 91 mm Relationship Diagram 1897 - 1975 Officer Knives
« Reply #54 on: November 23, 2020, 08:39:58 PM »

I have one without crimper.


https://leaf-vics.com/2016/11/473-fischermesser-ii.html


Scroll down till the last picture 😉

Cool. Looks like ‘73, maybe ‘74?  And the shield looks stainless. Perhaps the Fish inlay was too.

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