The cutting truth - knives, media and reality

[Shuya]

Hi folks,

just typing down some thoughts I have for some time.

When we are discussing blades, the need for them etc there is always some point where it shifts to the "want".
Somehow knives and their picture are in some way phallic symbols, more for some, less for others.

Lets take some examples:

Survival knifes.
Oh yeah, the big manly topic. If you ask for a good survival knife, people will recommend all sorts of things, up to 15-20cm blades with 6mm blade thickness for 300+ Euros..YOU NEED THAT. They say.
If I check what the indigiounes people had or those really living off the land:  thin blades, simple steels, narrow, sometimes partial tangs. Nothing to break open a door, or baton through that chainsawed log in your backyard. Heck, how do they survive with that?
Most of the Surival Experts or Bushcrafters, the real ones, not the ones found on Youtube (Mors, Nessmuck, ...) did a lot of their work with simple non locking folders.

EDC
Take a look at instagram, facebook or at google images for EDC knives and the people showing off.
I would guess in 3 out of 4 pics you see knifes like they just left the paper box.
Showing off your presine shiny knife has become more important than using and enjoying your expensive cutting tool.

Advertising
I stopped buying knive magazines years ago. What did they show: the latest steels, designs, tacticool folders shown by guys in BDU and gloves.
Knives are tested by their ability to whittle a stick (which quality knive CANT do that?), testing the lock by whacking (Ive never been in a situation to fully test my lock).
The reality: those knives are either stored away (see above) or for cutting an apple. Wow. CPM S90V cuts food.


The list goes on. At some point (where I am at the moment) you are kind of annoyed by all the knife industry and media.
Dont get me wrong, I stil am a totaly 100% knife nut. Love steel and stuff.


So, if someone has read all this, thanks, I just wanted to type it down.

Thanks. 

[SteveC]

You make some valid points.

[dks]

Mora is also recommended for survival/bushcraft

[kirk13]

I remember look on Ray Mears Bushcraft web store some years ago. He only listed two knives. The Vic Farmer and the K55K Mercador. That was pause for thought

[Rab21]

Your probably right but that ain't gonna keep the marketing department in work

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

[hiraethus]

People like nice stuff, have disposable income to spend on whatever the smurf they like and they like the reaction they get when they post pictures of nice stuff.  Don't let others 'bad habits' - perceived or real - get to you. 

I remember look on Ray Mears Bushcraft web store some years ago. He only listed two knives. The Vic Farmer and the K55K Mercador. That was pause for thought

The best (read: most expensive) knife on there now is £475...  'Hand-crafted from start to finish ...  with every single detail made with great care by their passionate bladesmiths.'  Make of that what you will.

[Aloha]

Thanks for you thoughts and posting them.  Want vs need sure is part of this and many hobbies.  I'd also add in fun. 

[pfrsantos]

Absolutelly agree! Now, show us your collection.

 

 

[Nix]

Survival knifes.
Oh yeah, the big manly topic. If you ask for a good survival knife, people will recommend all sorts of things, up to 15-20cm blades with 6mm blade thickness for 300+ Euros..YOU NEED THAT. They say.
If I check what the indigiounes people had or those really living off the land:  thin blades, simple steels, narrow, sometimes partial tangs. Nothing to break open a door, or baton through that chainsawed log in your backyard. Heck, how do they survive with that?
Most of the Surival Experts or Bushcrafters, the real ones, not the ones found on Youtube (Mors, Nessmuck, ...) did a lot of their work with simple non locking folders.

Shuya, you make some good points. Often there is a large gap between what is necessary and what is marketed as being necessary.  Our perceptions of what is necessary do not always reflect an underlying reality...most of the time.

However, taken to a logical extreme, you don't need anything more than food and water. We all have ancestors who survived with little more than some rocks and sticks. Of course, they were able to employ different knowledge sets than we have today.

When it comes to 'survival' tools I think you have glossed over a few issues.

I've been through a few survival courses. In each one, the instructors have recommended carrying a fixed blade knife. There was one instructor who preferred a Buck 110 for it convenience (I had brought a Buck 110 to the course with me, which is how we got to discussing the subject.)  For the course, however, we used fixed blades with 13cm blades. A couple of the instructors carried 18cm blades.

Is a 15-20cm blade "necessary"?  Probably not. However, if you end up in a survival situation, the advantages of a larger knife maybe quite distinct.

You mention Mors. Reading his book, it seems he did start out with a folder. But it didn't take long for him to switch to a fixed blade. And that is what he recommends. Nessmuk? Folder, fixie, and hatchet. One of the activities that drew me to knives was canoeing. The authors of my books on canoeing recommended 10-15cm fixed blades, one (Rustrum, IIRC) then adds that carrying an additional folding penknife is also helpful.

Lastly, you rightly note that indigenous people from around the world often use tools that are "simple".  That may be true, but, is that by choice? Given the option, would the thin, simple steel, partial-tang knife be the choice over others?  Or is the choice of tool made for reasons of cost and availability? Inexpensive Mora knives are recommended because they are inexpensive....and adequate...nearly 100% of the time. Not because they are the best tool for any given job. (Although I really like the Mora Garberg.)

In the survival courses I've mentioned, the humble machete was noted to be one of the very best survival tools. As you say, a tool made with simple steel and a thin profile. But not small. Often quite large. Anyone who has spent time in a tropical area will rapidly see that the large knife is the tool of choice for hunting, survival, daily tasks. I had the chance to hang out with some Maasai warriors in Africa. They all carried (partly a symbol of the manhood) large knives (in addition to ferocious spears). Working knives. It was the same with the Kikuyu men I knew and travelled with: they carried large knives or machetes.

Shifting environments, the Saami and Siberians of the arboreal forests use large fixed blade knives (have you ever had a fixed blade knife freeze shut?), saws, and axes. (The "and axes" part here is important, they aren't relying on one "do awl tool", they also carry the ultimate "chopper."  Having used knives in sub-zero weather, I can say that it is pretty easy to use a fixie with thick mittens. Just a thought.




For myself, when selecting a survival knife for military deployments, I carried several, usually a Leatherman, usually a SAK, and usually a fixed blade with a blade around 5" (13cm). I chose a small fixed blade because it was more convenient to carry. I'm sure that if I had even really needed a survival tool I would have wanted an axe or machete, and that little 5" knife would have seemed less useful than I imagined.

So, sure, knife magazine advertise and hype up some ridiculous stuff. And most "super steels" are over-hyper in my opinion. (My choice of steel for survival knives has been 1095, O-1, or A-2--nice reliable steels.) However, don't discount the utility of a large sturdy knife.

Few of us will ever end up in a survival situation that can't be managed with a SAK. However, I do recall one Winter hunt where my partner and I got back to camp a little wet and cold. A heavy snow had settled over everything in our camp, and we needed to get a fire going. Not an emergency, but we both had cold hands and, having stopped hiking, were cooling down quickly.

I had brought along a large (8") knife partly for camp chores and partly in case we needed to cut up an Elk (which we didn't). That knife quickly processed some snow covered wood into kindling and helped get a much needed fire going at the end of the day. My partner hadn't seen anyone baton wood before. He hadn't brought a large knife. However, after we got that fire going, he did take a good look at mine. After we got back from our trip, he went and got a large knife for himself.

 

[old Lefty]

^
Wise words!

Lähetetty minun SM-T515 laitteesta Tapatalkilla

[Etherealicer]

Survival knifes.
Oh yeah, the big manly topic. If you ask for a good survival knife, people will recommend all sorts of things, up to 15-20cm blades with 6mm blade thickness for 300+ Euros..YOU NEED THAT. They say.
If I check what the indigiounes people had or those really living off the land:  thin blades, simple steels, narrow, sometimes partial tangs. Nothing to break open a door, or baton through that chainsawed log in your backyard. Heck, how do they survive with that?
Most of the Surival Experts or Bushcrafters, the real ones, not the ones found on Youtube (Mors, Nessmuck, ...) did a lot of their work with simple non locking folders.

I mostly agree... BUT I prefer my two Fällkniven (WM1 and F1) over any other blade I have/had or tried. Somehow the geometry is just perfect for me when doing some woodwork (mind you I'm not a bushcrafter, for me that mostly means make a pointy stick to hold a sausage over a fire).

EDC
Take a look at instagram, facebook or at google images for EDC knives and the people showing off.
I would guess in 3 out of 4 pics you see knifes like they just left the paper box.
Showing off your presine shiny knife has become more important than using and enjoying your expensive cutting tool.

Here, I have to disagree... Wear does not equate use. Wear depends a lot more on how you carry a knife than how much you use it.
I like to keep my stuff in pristine condition and take care of it (part of it is, that my knife has it's own pocket). I also rotate between knives (usually switch every week) and clean them before I put them away. As a result the only thing you can see is the edge I do put on my knives.
More knives (means less carry / less use) + harder steels (less sharpening) results in knives that are longer in almost new condition.

Advertising
I stopped buying knive magazines years ago. What did they show: the latest steels, designs, tacticool folders shown by guys in BDU and gloves.
Knives are tested by their ability to whittle a stick (which quality knive CANT do that?), testing the lock by whacking (Ive never been in a situation to fully test my lock).
The reality: those knives are either stored away (see above) or for cutting an apple. Wow. CPM S90V cuts food.

I agree on that mostly. Advertisement is usually way over the top (Gerber Centerdrive anyone?).

Blade-steel is not critical (most steels with a name are good enough, I sometimes even carry a knife that is in 440). For my daily use, I can't tell the difference between steels like VG-10 and M390 (blade geometry makes so much more of a difference). I do notice that 440 is not the greatest steel
The difference is much more obvious when sharpening. Absolutely love to sharpen M390, it feels so smooth...

[Valkie]

I have quite a few knives, I like the look of them.
But as you say, most are never really used.

As a boy scout for most of my life, I have however carry a small utility knife most of the time.
Never as a weapon, simply as a tool.
I have had a Leatherman Wave and Wingman for the last few years and have used them fairly extensively to the point that the wingman is looking a little sad, but I have two spares.
Prior to them, it was an old Victornox which also looks well used and scratched.

My earliest knives were Boker and are so worn as to look very sad indeed, one blade is about 1/2 it original size from sharpening.

What have I used them for?
Cutting/ trimming radiator and other hoses on cars in emergencies.
Unwrapping my driveshaft that became wrapped in plastic from a truck on the freeway.
Opening almost everything.
Removing nails and other nasty things from tyres.
Electrical repairs on cars and when working
Disentangling fishing line from outboard engines, the Wingman helped quite a bit when the prop became entangled with a wire net.
Screwing in loose screws, tightening loose bolts and radiator clamps.
Modifying, repairing and making camping gear while camping.
Cutting up fruit and food.
The Wingman has a brilliant package opening tool, used often.

There are many other things over the years, most of which I have forgotten.

But now, carrying a knife is illegal in Australia and many, many times I have lamented the need for a tool that I am no longer allowed to carry.
So many of my new knifes never see actual work, they just bring back my fondest memories.

[Aloha]

I have a few thoughts.  I'll start with survival knives but let me first say a quality knife is a great idea but knowledge is a must.  One knife I recall being suggested quite a lot a while ago was the BK2.  Its a helluva knife that's for sure and one that can do quite a lot.  Hype plays a part and to some degree fantasy and fun ( weird as it may be ).  When I was young I read Soldier of Fortune magazine.  I played in my local canyons thinking I was escaping or tracking enemies.   It was a lot of fun and I would have loved to have any of the survival knives we've all seen suggested.

I belive theres stil that young boy in many.  We're older and can afford the "toys" we only dreamed about.  The fun of our hobby is "buying" into the hype.  Its fun to buy that monster knife and like the young boy fantasize surviving with it and our wits. 

I have a BK2 now and I can fully see why this knife was or is so popular.  Its a beast that feels like it can do anything.  I picked it up for a great price but I also picke it up because of this hobby of mine.  I finally brought it out on my recent camping trip.  Yes I batoned wood and shaved fatwood for our fire.  It was a fun knife to "play" with.  Its not a knife I'd strap to my hip for a day out hiking.

I "blame" a lot of our buying habits on the younger us.  Many of us realize we'll likely never "need" many of the knive we buy.  Heck whats "need" got to do with it anyways  .  We are having fun right?     

[Aloha]

My thoughts on EDC knives.  I used to think/feel those who posted their pristine knives as their EDC knife was a bit odd.  I wondered how could this knife be in such amazing condition?  Surely they are posting this knife because they want to show off this pricey specimen.  I no longer feel this way and for a lot of reasons.  E made some great points some of which I'll echo. 

Knive are used in many ways.  One may use their knife on a construction site while another in a lab.  One knife may see chores such as scraping while another as a letter opener.  Some use their knife "hard" while another carefully.  Steel also has a lot to do with how a knife will wear.  Carbon as we know will develope a patina while stainless may not show any such patina performing the same tasks.   

E mentions how some carry their knives.  I carry my tradional folders in leather slip sheaths.  I do not want the bolsters or cover to get scratched.  One knife in particular, my Case small trapper in SS is in great condition.  I got it used too.  I believe its a 2005 production?  I have carried it since getting it almost every day.  The bone covers seem to be slightly darker but its really hard telling. 

My GEC fixed blade was bought new.  I've posted pictures of how its developing patina.  In a years time I bet I'll really look "old" and well used.  I use this knife primarily for food and "clean" stuff.  I carrry it almost every day while home. 

I have a few other knives that don't show wear or minimal wear and I've used these knives often.  Many of them I got previously owned too.  I was the lucky winner of a Bark River Bushcrafter ( Thank you again Nix ).  I have used it quite a lot at home just getting to know it.  I have come back from a camping trip where I used this knife over the 3 days a lot.  When I got home and gave the knife a good wash I was surprised it looked the same as it did when I got it .  Its CPM 3V so theres that. 

How we use our knives and how others use their knives is going to be different.  How we use a particular knife vs another knife is also going to be different.  I have a Jumpmaster that I use for work.  It came to me in pretty great condition.  It is now pretty banged up.  My intention with this knife was use it like I stole it.  This is not the case with my Benchmade Contego.  I use it but I am not trying to take that use to within inches of its life.  I hope that makes sense?  Because many of us have multiple knives we may tend to use certain ones less aggressively.  I have a Case Trapper with Pslam 23 on the blade.  I carry and use this knife but I am careful with it.  I have WW2 Navy knife that I also carry but am gentle in my use of it.  Back to my recent Bark River Bushcrafter, I plan on using this knife on all my camping trips.  I wont baton with it but not because it cannot handle it.  This knife will be a fun knife to pratice my bushcrafting and enjoyment of the outdoors all while looking amazing. 

While I certainly understand seeing those pristine knives posted as EDC knives and wondering how could they look so amazing still?  I am reminded I also have knives that look pretty darn good with a lot of use as well.     

[Aloha]

My thoughts on Advertising.  Oh boy where do we start?  WE are our own worst enemies, more specifically ENABLERS    .  Come on admit it!  I was not well versed on knife steel when I first came to MTO.  Over the years and the many many posted and written and watched material on the latest steel had/has me intriged.  It was not the advertisers that peaked my interest it was y'all  . 

I am very interested in the variety of steels used in knives these days.  I am also interested in the variety of materials used.   I won't go out and get every steel offered tho I enjoy reading and watching most of the information out there.  I don't get too hyped up on BEST or stuff along those lines but edge holding abilitiy is very interesting.   

Let think about recipes for a moment.  Knife steels are similar in that respect.  Adding in and taking out to get a desired result.  H1 comes to mind.  I finally got my hands on a Jumpmaster in H1.  WOW.  While the edge has not been the best ( serrated ) it has to date not disappointed.  I work with water in various PH levels.  I also live very close to the ocean.  I leave this knive wet after use and in my truck bed where it is open the the environment.  Can I do with with other SS knives?  I'm sure I can but theres something to H1 that is sexy, right? 

Most of what I have is Carbon in one form or another.  I also have some pretty new tech stuff.  While I may not NEED  certain steels I'll quickly say, what's NEED got to do with anything  ?  WANT  . 

I got a Native in S30V very early on.  I didn't know much then but I could tell this steel was different from 8CR knives I had.  The more I use my knives the nuances do become clearer on what I prefer in a steel.  That doesn't mean I don't still love basic carbon.     

Could I get along with my Old Hickory and a Mora for my outdoor knives?  Yes for sure.  Lets for a moment talk about bling.  Lets talk about the idea of luxury as it applies to knives.  Lets talk about durability in materials.  Yes the knives mentioned will last and can be durable.  The steels are also very good as well.  I very much enjoy both and will take both along with my nicer knives.  Theres IS something to bling.  I enjoyed my new to me Bark River Bushcrafter quite a lot on my camp trip.  Did the fact that the handle is polished and a beautiful color?  Yes.  Did that fact that the steel is CPM3V?  Yes.  Stainless steel pins and lanyard tube?  Yes.  The nice leather sheath with fire steel loop?  Yes.  The quality of materials is part of the enjoyment for me.  When performance is similar between two knives I freely admit looks matter.

Did I get off track?  Probably.  I don't care for liner lock knives.  I prefer lock back or mid lock when it comes to locking folders.  I do have an axis lock and like it very much.  I don't think I'll ever test locks to the fail limits so lock strength is not something I'm overly interested in. 

   

[Alan K.]

My thoughts on survival knives. I saw Rambo in 1982, I read the article in SoF, around that same time, advocating a big bowie knife for fighting/defense, and I am not immune to the allure of big knives.  However, I've come to the conclusion that large, heavy knives with thick blades are not a good substitute for a machete, but are possibly a substitute for a hatchet.  My reasoning is that ideally, a machete should slice cleanly through what you're cutting and not take out chips the way you do when chopping with an axe.  Most of the YouTube survival experts test a machete by trying to cut through a log so they are chopping hard wood and that is not a machetes job (unless it's all you have). Cutting hard wood is a job for an axe or a saw. I get it though. They test on hardwood logs because they all live in areas of hardwood forest so that is what they encounter most.  These experts all tend to dislike machetes because they have to work harder to chop that log. For their purposes they might be better served by a large heavy knife that will remove chips like a hatchet when used for chopping.  For me, my local natural areas are swamp and the woods and grasses and vines are generally soft.  I use various types of machetes successfully but never really saw the need for an axe other than chopping out roots or splitting firewood.   I also find using a large knife for camp chores is awkward and tiring and prefer smaller lighter knives. So to me the whole concept of a survival knife being the "one tool option" that can do everything if it is all you have is a bad argument.  There's never a good reason why one knife ever needs to be all you have or why one knife should be able to do everything.  I prefer to camp with a machete, a small fixed blade knife, a Swiss army knife and /or a multitool, and my three or four tool option doesn't weigh any more combined than some of the big knives weigh by themselves.  Big knives are cool though and I like them, I just want more than that in a camping, bushcraft, or survival situation.

[Aloha]

 .  Thank you.  I have seen quite a few indigenous people use their machete in ways many cannot use a smaller knife.  The precision is pretty cool to see.  I like the idea of carrying a few options.  A MT is a great option IMO for quite a lot.  We've seen a contestant on Alone ( Zachary Fowler ) not bring a large fixed blade however bring a MT.  He did have a Spetznas and felling ax. 
   

[theonew]

I'm really into saws. I have an 8 inch Silky saw that weighs maybe 8 ounces and using it I was able to take down a 10 inch diameter dead tree and cut it into 2 foot sections and had a roaring campfire for the night. I think it took me about 20 minutes to accomplish this task.

[ElevenBlade]

Shuya - I would have to agree with your sentiment on EDC, particularly in social media.  On some of the more photograph heavy social media, you really get the sense of people flexing their EDC "muscles" more than putting anything into use. At best it's color-coordinated photography of a few gadgets and sharps... some fidget toys, worry stones,  expensive coins that are not legal tender, and overpriced handkerchiefs that you dare not wipe your nose on.  At worst, they're a lack of self-awareness. 

It's not what we have here... fortunately.  On the other forums and in the real world there is this frustrating and lucrative business that capitalizes on the fantasy of EDC. 

I think we do a decent job of keeping it real over here on MTo

[ToolJoe]

I carry a Vic Spirit and use a box cutter at work and it seems to fit all my needs.

[Old Boy]

I agree with the comments regarding the hype and show of knives and such.

But taking a step back I do enjoy the journey and I do see it as a journey. I’m a little embarrassed but I have a few sites or social media accounts that I lurk just to see what people use or carry. A bit of vicarious living since I can’t afford what I see out there.

But to me what’s cool about it too is that it seems like the industry as a whole learns from their attempts to try out designs and material at different ends of the spectrum and eventually end up with something cool and worthwhile to carry.

In my personal experience back in the day slipjoints and buck 110 ruled the day. These were excellent slicers. Eventually there came a trend for overbuilt folders that frankly some of them were too excessive. Folding prybars. Nowadays it seems like the needle shifted back a bit and now you have folders that have the best of both worlds.

Just saying that it seems like this whole thing is a journey and yeah I do have some doubts on whether folks are actually using their gear. But they sure are purty!

[Aloha]

I also enjoy looking at pictures of gear especially gear I know is pricey.  I don't care if its used or not I just enjoy the pics.  As I said I used to think it was odd that pics of nice gear was posted with the caption of EDC.  I think the acronym EDC can be misleading.  Every Day Carry, carry being the key word.  Who's to say they don't carry these items?  Who's to say they don't have a item they carry and use in place of these pricey shiny gears? 

I don't look at the pics so much but I do enjoy them.  Keep them coming is what I say. 

[SurgeUk]

Shuya - I would have to agree with your sentiment on EDC, particularly in social media.  On some of the more photograph heavy social media, you really get the sense of people flexing their EDC "muscles" more than putting anything into use. At best it's color-coordinated photography of a few gadgets and sharps... some fidget toys, worry stones,  expensive coins that are not legal tender, and overpriced handkerchiefs that you dare not wipe your nose on.  At worst, they're a lack of self-awareness. 

It's not what we have here... fortunately.  On the other forums and in the real world there is this frustrating and lucrative business that capitalizes on the fantasy of EDC. 

I think we do a decent job of keeping it real over here on MTo