Risks of PayPal friends and family

[dks]

We often see items for sale where the seller asks you to pay using the PayPal friends and family option, rather than the, correct, Goods and Service option.

- Basically if you sell goods you the seller pays the PayPal fee, and the buyer gets PayPal protection, that is, a potential refund if he/she is not happy with the purchase.

- If the buyer pays using friends and family, then the Buyer pays a fee (the item thus costs more) and the buyer has, commonly (unless specified otherwise), no PayPal protection, since they are collaborating with the seller and claiming that this is not a purchase but just a friendly money exchange.

There is an exception within the US where friends and family has no fees, BUT this is not applicable worldwide, AND you still commonly get no protection.

From the PayPal US site:
"What's the difference between friends and family or goods and services payments?

You can send money to friends and family or pay for goods and services in the Send & Request tab at the top of the PayPal page.

If you’re sending a payment, payment types include:

    Sending to a friend and family - used when sending money or a gift card to a friend or family member. Before you complete a payment, you can opt to pay the fee, or pass it onto the recipient to be covered by PayPal Purchase Protection.
    Paying for goods or service - used when buying an item or service from someone. When you make a purchase, the seller pays a small fee to receive your money. Your payment is covered by our protection policy automatically.

You can make a personal payment to anyone in the U.S. for free."

And,

"If you use your PayPal account to receive payments for the sale of goods or services or accept donations, you must:

    Pay any applicable fees for receiving the funds.
    Not ask your buyer to send you money using the “send money to a friend or family member.” If you do so, PayPal may remove your PayPal account’s ability to accept payments from friends or family members."

Here is the international FAQ : https://www.paypal.com/cy/smarthelp/article/what-are-the-fees-for-paypal-accounts-faq690

So, please understand what you are agreeing to when selecting or requesting payment through Friends and Family and the risks and costs involved.

[Fuzzbucket]

  Exactly, I've been saying this for ages... but does anybody listen? No... Bloody typical...

[Mechanickal]

Also, if you use goods and services and have been scammed, PayPal will return your money, but block your account for life a few months later without any explanation.

They state they will release remaining funds after 120 days, but they never do.
Instead, they keep your money for themselves.

Calling them is of no use, since they all say they can't see the reason why, and can't unblock it either.

When you start kicking the bucket on their social media about it, they just block you on top if it.

I'd rather die by choking on my own shoe than to ever work with those scammers, who pretend to te protectors, again.

I'm praying every evening they go out of business.

[dks]

I have had money returned from PayPal on a few occasions but they have not blocked my account

[Reinier]

When you start kicking the bucket on their social media about it, they just block you on top if it.

That was a smurfty thing of them to do. Not a single word you wrote back then was lied

[Fuzzbucket]

...

I'd rather die by choking on my own shoe than to ever work with those scammers, who pretend to te protectors, again.

I'm praying every evening they go out of business.

 

[Sam Lim]

I had made a few claims before and they are usually because of scams. You will just need to have proofs as much as possible. They are pretty just and fair I would say. I did encounter one of the case where they made the wrong judgement and refused to refund me. And their decisions are usually final and there's no way to dispute them. Their email system are non existence and phones were never picked up. Horrifying service from a major payment player. I ended up seeking help from my local bank. This made me more wary about PayPal protection now. Though generally safe, things can still mess up at times.

[Aloha]

Also, if you use goods and services and have been scammed, PayPal will return your money, but block your account for life a few months later without any explanation.

They state they will release remaining funds after 120 days, but they never do.
Instead, they keep your money for themselves.

Calling them is of no use, since they all say they can't see the reason why, and can't unblock it either.

When you start kicking the bucket on their social media about it, they just block you on top if it.

I'd rather die by choking on my own shoe than to ever work with those scammers, who pretend to te protectors, again.

I'm praying every evening they go out of business.

   I seem to recall what happened.  When I was buying on the bay of fleas I only bought if the seller had 100% positive feedback and then I prayed the items was as listed. 

[comis]

I had made a few claims before and they are usually because of scams. You will just need to have proofs as much as possible. They are pretty just and fair I would say. I did encounter one of the case where they made the wrong judgement and refused to refund me. And their decisions are usually final and there's no way to dispute them. Their email system are non existence and phones were never picked up. Horrifying service from a major payment player. I ended up seeking help from my local bank. This made me more wary about PayPal protection now. Though generally safe, things can still mess up at times.

Same here, a few claims where the seller never sent the goods and was delayed more than a few months. 

I totally agree with DKS where if you are the buyer, always ask to pay via "goods and services", even with the premium just to cover the pp fee.  And if something is made to order, it is always better just to pay a small amount of deposit and complete the payment upon work completed.  If you pay 100% upfront, it's probably not possible to make any claim if the seller fail to deliver after the paypal protection expire.

This probably should be a sticky.

[Don Pablo]

Also, if you use goods and services and have been scammed, PayPal will return your money, but block your account for life a few months later without any explanation.

They state they will release remaining funds after 120 days, but they never do.
Instead, they keep your money for themselves.

Calling them is of no use, since they all say they can't see the reason why, and can't unblock it either.

When you start kicking the bucket on their social media about it, they just block you on top if it.

I'd rather die by choking on my own shoe than to ever work with those scammers, who pretend to te protectors, again.

I'm praying every evening they go out of business.

Me thinks that you should have protection against being kicked off vital services without good reason. You didn't do anything to justify being banned for life!

[gregozedobe]

I would suggest caution to anyone who thinks PayPal goods & services payment  protection will be anywhere near as good as eBay buyer protection ( IME the latter is usually good, the former is most definitely not so good)

I recently got scammed (quite blatantly) and PayPal initially insisted I send the obviously wrong (and much cheaper) article back to the seller before they would refund my purchase amount.  The seller didn't respond to my claim that they deliberately sent the wrong article, all they gave PayPal was the tracking info to show that something had been delivered to my address.  By searching online I discovered they scammed many other buyers.

The return postage would have cost around 3 times the value of the cheap crap they sent me, so there was no way I was going to spend even more money, so instead of sending it back and giving PayPal the tracking info I gave them extra details of how the seller had scammed me and several other buyers.  To my (pleasant) surprise a human must have read my lengthy description of what happened and decided yes, this seller did scam me and I actually got all my money back

So, some lessons that I had reinforced in this episode:

1  If it seems too cheap it might be a scam (I'll admit I was being greedy).

2  If not buying from a well known and trusted website that has been around for some time do some research on the seller before paying (this would probably have saved me from myself).

3  Don't be too confident that PayPal will refund your money if you get scammed.  New sellers (and new websites) pop up on facebook all the time running the same scam as caught me, so PayPal are obviously still permitting it to happen.

4  Over the years eBay has been pretty good to me when packages don't arrive, and ebay sellers have generally also been fairly honest (it helps that I usually only buy from sellers with a high feedback score and good ratings).

[Max Stone]

Good advice, gregozedobe 

PayPal+unknown seller 
PayPal+eBay 
PayPal+eBay+100% feedback   

[SurgeUk]

  I seem to recall what happened.  When I was buying on the bay of fleas I only bought if the seller had 100% positive feedback and then I prayed the items was as listed.

[chrono]

Pay with a credit card in conjunction with Paypal's Goods and Services. Get some cash back and double protection.

[Gareth]

I am sure that in 99% of cases those who are asking for F&F payment are just looking to save a bit of money and are being completely honest.  However it's also something done by the small number of scammers out there and so it instantly puts me off those sales.  If it's an item that I particularly want I have gotten in touch before and asked for the full G&S price.  Only once have I had someone say they weren't prepared to do that and so I have to assume it was a scam in the first place.

[Myron]

Pay with a credit card in conjunction with Paypal's Goods and Services. Get some cash back and double protection.

This is how I do it, too.  Your credit card bank doesn't smurf around with cardholder protection and has much better customer service than PayPal. 

I've been using PayPal for over a decade and have never had a problem either buying or selling things. 

[tosh]

Can I just add...
I don’t know if PayPal is different outside of the U.K.
But here there is NO repeat NO way to contact PayPal. There used to be both a phone number and a email messaging service - both now gone!
I got scammed again on eBay. Third time in  12months. The last scam was over £1000 which takes the total to well over £2000 for all three scams.
It was impossible to contact PayPal. There is ( or was when I tried) nothing!
Both eBay and PayPal turned away until the police fraud got involved and then eBay refunded promptly but PayPal were completely unapproachable.
Truly disgusting customer service. 

[Aloha]

Pay with a credit card in conjunction with Paypal's Goods and Services. Get some cash back and double protection.

This is looking like a very good option vs PayPal.  I didn't have any trouble when I was buying a lot from fleabay thankfully.  I do know that my cc is very good with issues.   

[nitram]

Pay with a credit card in conjunction with Paypal's Goods and Services. Get some cash back and double protection.

My credit card provider in The Netherlands (ICS cards) recently changed their terms, they no longer protect you if you use Paypal for the purchase.

[Mechanickal]

Sounds like a sensible decision...

[Myron]

Can I just add...
I don’t know if PayPal is different outside of the U.K.
But here there is NO repeat NO way to contact PayPal. There used to be both a phone number and a email messaging service - both now gone!
I got scammed again on eBay. Third time in  12months. The last scam was over £1000 which takes the total to well over £2000 for all three scams.
It was impossible to contact PayPal. There is ( or was when I tried) nothing!
Both eBay and PayPal turned away until the police fraud got involved and then eBay refunded promptly but PayPal were completely unapproachable.
Truly disgusting customer service.

Tosh, if you don't mind me asking, what are you buying for such large dollar amounts and repeatedly getting scammed? 

I remember one time I had a question about my PayPal account and I was able to get hold of a real live person easily.  They answered my question and thanked me for being a long term customer (since 2001).    It's also been my observation that PayPal errs on the side of the buyer in disputes, not the seller.   

Not trying to provoke you, but would love to learn about your specific circumstances so we can all steer clear.

[tosh]

Tosh, if you don't mind me asking, what are you buying for such large dollar amounts and repeatedly getting scammed? 

I remember one time I had a question about my PayPal account and I was able to get hold of a real live person easily.  They answered my question and thanked me for being a long term customer (since 2001).    It's also been my observation that PayPal errs on the side of the buyer in disputes, not the seller.   

Not trying to provoke you, but would love to learn about your specific circumstances so we can all steer clear.

No problem
All three scams were for photo equipment
EOS 7dii £600
EOS 5Div £1050
Canon 70-200 2.8 ii £950

Plus I was almost scammed selling stuff. Refused to send and refunded the buyer - they naturally went ahead and left me negative feedback - first one in over 1800 transactions.

eBay is now a scammers paradise. Somehow they (scammers) have managed to get real live tracking numbers near to where you live - in my case on my road!!
They then upload the tracking number, that tells eBay and Royal Mail that the item was successfully delivered.
It’s a absolute PITA
I now no longer use eBay. After 15yrs I’ve decided it’s not worth the grief.
As for PayPal. Fine...until things go sour then they simply ignore. My partner wrote a letter of complaint to the financial ombudsman- tho we never got a reply. 

[tosh]

No problem
All three scams were for photo equipment
EOS 7dii £600
EOS 5Div £1050
Canon 70-200 2.8 ii £950

Plus I was almost scammed selling stuff. Refused to send and refunded the buyer - they naturally went ahead and left me negative feedback - first one in over 1800 transactions.

eBay is now a scammers paradise. Somehow they (scammers) have managed to get real live tracking numbers near to where you live - in my case on my road!!
They then upload the tracking number, that tells eBay and Royal Mail that the item was successfully delivered.
It’s a absolute PITA
I now no longer use eBay. After 15yrs I’ve decided it’s not worth the grief.
As for PayPal. Fine...until things go sour then they simply ignore. My partner wrote a letter of complaint to the financial ombudsman- tho we never got a reply.

Just to add

The last scam I specifically selected the click and collect option (Argos) to ensure I wouldn’t fall for the Royal Mail Tracking scam. The seller simply went ahead and uploaded a real tracking number within 30mins of my buying the item. 5:30 am!!
I messaged at 7am asking why, he replied it was a error, the item would arrive the next day!
I contacted eBay (nightmare) to warn...they could not care less. The tracking number showed that the item has “”already” been delivered the day before I even bought it.
eBay were smurf and PayPal.... pointless, they answer to no one it seems. They are above the law obviously!!

Dreadful, never ever again.
eBay is full of scum and scammers now. It used to be easy to spot scams by their use of pigeon English, but now they give such a realistic description and sob story (redundancy forces sale , or late fathers prized possession etc etc) it’s hard to spot. But usually their feedback is 0 and they list only 1 item at a time. I’m assuming they have multiple aliases up and running.
My last scammer was running 6 aliases simultaneously- police fraud told me that.

I dare not now list anything for sale as I assume scammers have “saved me” for revenge.

Don’t you thinks it odd, that in over 20yrs never once has national news reported a big story on how eBay is clamping down, never once has their been a high profile court case with gangs been found guilty and sentenced???
eBay ought to make it that you cannot list a item until you have a feedback score of 50 at 100%
That’s my view, until then I’ll look the other way.

[dks]

I think a separate thread on eBay scams and any refund issues with PayPal may be more useful for future reference.

This thread is for a different issue.

[enki_ck]

Wow, didn't know it's gotten so bad, Nick. One of the reasons I hesitate to sell on ebay. I have a few things I'd need to sell and thought it might get better prices in auction, but I'm not sure if I wanna go that route after readin this.

But yes, I do agree with dks that a dedicated thread on that subject would get more exposure and be more useful for future readers and reference in the long run.

[dks]

ADDITION.

Based on personal experience I can now verify that using Friends and Family in the EU will not cost the sender or the receiver any more money, no fees.

I do not know if this is for the whole of the Europe region or just for the EU or if it is now worldwide.

[Wspeed]

No problem
All three scams were for photo equipment
EOS 7dii £600
EOS 5Div £1050
Canon 70-200 2.8 ii £950

Plus I was almost scammed selling stuff. Refused to send and refunded the buyer - they naturally went ahead and left me negative feedback - first one in over 1800 transactions.

eBay is now a scammers paradise. Somehow they (scammers) have managed to get real live tracking numbers near to where you live - in my case on my road!!
They then upload the tracking number, that tells eBay and Royal Mail that the item was successfully delivered.
It’s a absolute PITA
I now no longer use eBay. After 15yrs I’ve decided it’s not worth the grief.
As for PayPal. Fine...until things go sour then they simply ignore. My partner wrote a letter of complaint to the financial ombudsman- tho we never got a reply. 

Interesting reading you being scammed for photography equipment as the same happened to me as they tried to buy a camera for about £1100 on ebay with my PayPal account
Luckily I didn’t have enough money in the bank and the payment got cancelled I got in touch with PayPal and eBay and I never heard back from them about this scam ?
I now change my password for PayPal every month I don’t like PayPal or trust them much and will only use a debit card that doesn’t have much money on it

[SurgeUk]

Interesting reading you being scammed for photography equipment as the same happened to me as they tried to buy a camera for about £1100 on ebay with my PayPal account
Luckily I didn’t have enough money in the bank and the payment got cancelled I got in touch with PayPal and eBay and I never heard back from them about this scam ?
I now change my password for PayPal every month I don’t like PayPal or trust them much and will only use a debit card that doesn’t have much money on it

That said, my debit card rarely has ANY money on it